Is the second half of the series what you envisioned?

[silent_spectre]

I've been with this series since 1993 as well, so I can understand your anguish at waiting for the ending. 

 

The main 3 books in question here are PoD, WH, and CoT, which I will admit to being rather bored with on my first read through of each, mainly I wanted to keep pace with the main characters, but in re-reading the books I found that I actually like them a lot as well, just a bit differently from the faster paced first books.

 

I like seeing the character development and yes, even the secondary characters development, as it gives me a greater understanding of what is really going on... There is a lot going on in the real world too, but I bet that you get bored sometimes too. 

 

On Elayne:

Yes, this is a HUGE arc.  Did it all need to be there...I'll agree with you to a point, but this is one of the sections where we get to see some "minor" tension.  In fact what makes it interesting is the total lack almost of all the interesting elements we see elsewhere... there are no ta'veren present, not a lot of channelling going on, culture clash, a drawn out siege, and mundane daily affairs and concerns... In fact in Camelyn they didn't even act like they knew about the Last Battle, much less that it was looming right over their heads. 

 

On Perrin:

This is all valid material.  The actual progression takes a long time, but everything is required.  The slow pace is required to drive home the stages of depression and anguish that Perrin feels over Faile's loss, how Masema's radicalism and madness begin to spread amongst the ranks of followers... The chapters on Faile's captivity are interesting by the virtue of it shows us just how the factors of time and change are wearing away the Shaido...

 

There is a lot of stuff in these books to consider into the greater storyline, but they can bog down the reader hoping to get to the meat and potatoes of the story.

 

Now KoD was a faster paced book, but on my first time through I didn't like that most of the plot lines from the previous few books were just wrapped up so quickly. On a re-read I looked at it the same way I looked at the previous 3 books... he slowed it down to catch us up on the minor details, then he sped it back up, because in the overall scheme of things... these are minor details... albeit still important and integral to the story overall and the concepts that support RJ's world...

[OptimusPrime]

I myself see Elaynes arc with Andor to be alright. She chose not to let Rand hand her her own country but to do it the hard way, the right way. It was bound to go on for a long time and I see her end place being a Queen famous for her actions against the Shadow, she will end up being one of Andors idol queens. Queen and Aes Sedai of great strength in the One Power, who almost singlehandedly pulled down the Black Ajah. Thats what the stories would say, maybe.

[Mr Ares]

If we didn't have Elayne's storyline the plot would have been better.

How?

Nothing she's done since the bowl of the wind has mattered towards the story.

Gaining the throne of Andor doesn't matter in the slightest? You know this how? 

I don't feel as if I'd have missed anything I care about.

What you care about and what is important to the story are not the same thing.

 

I just don't think the side characters and antagonist chapters should ever outnumber your protagonists chapters. The protagonists are the Edmond's Field crew.

Among others. And why the hell shouldn't they? Why not tell a story purely from outside the pov of the main character?

 

For many, the answer to the first is yet. In some cases, the answer to the latter is unknown as yet.

For many more, the answer is no.

Can't please all of the people all of the time. As it is, Amazon reviews don't do much to further your case, given that many Amazon reviewers are incompetent. I've seen reviews there that don't mention the product in question, that admit to not having read/watched it, or that show an incredibly flawed understanding of what went on. I saw a review of FoH on there that complained about Avi "suddenly" getting magic powers, when we already knew she was a channeler, and the things she does are not out of the ordinary for channelers. It's absurd. Not forgetting that much WoT criticism is so overblown and exaggerated that you have to do a fair bit of sifting to get to a kernel of truth. How many of those reviews complain about absolutely nothing happening? I've seen any amount of criticsim of the series that tries to pass off every single female character as exactly the same. It's utter rubbish. A lot of the positive reviews are useless as well.

 

New spring sales sucked because the book sucked.

Qualtiy does not affect success.

 

We bought the books not knowing the sucked.

Yet that doesn't hold true for New Spring? People knew NS was bad before they read it, but not CoT or the others? And let us not forget that books 8-11 all topped the bestseller lists. If people disliked each one so much, why the continuing success of each subsequent volume? "Hmm, a few bad books in a row, I'll wait a bit for this one."

 

Selling books doesn't mean they are good, as is evidenced by the reviews on Amazon.

Bad reviews on Amazon don't indicate anything other than people disliked it, which is evidenced by the reviews on Amazon.

 

Before you dismiss this this let me explain why I brought it up.  Every time you shift viewpoints in a book it jars the reader.

No, it doesn't. And even if it did, the series couldn't be told from a single pov. It has to change. By book 10, people are used to multiple povs.

Count the PoVs in Eye of the World. Then count them in Crossroads of Twilight.

Which book in the series has the most?

See a difference?

The story got broader. So what?

The prologue in EotW was about ten (great) pages. By CoT its 150 pages which is really about six chapters.

So what? would you be happier if it was 6 chapters, not just one? Some authors don't even use chapters - Terry Pratchett's Discworld books generally avoid them, as do Charlie Huston's Joe Pitt novels, and in neither case is this a flaw of the work.

 

You put promise in quotes like you disagree he made one.

He didn't, not to us. Not implicitly, anyway.

This is, again, a well known fact for every professional writer.

No, it isn't.

In RJs case it was that he would should us a fantastic world we'd never seen, and that we would see Rand fight the dark one in Tarmon Gaidon.

Which part of this was shattered by CoT? None. We still see the same world, and we didn't see TG before, but we still move closer to it. If anything, AMoL broke that promise, as he didn't finish writing it, so we didn't see the promised Last Battle.

 

If you cut every book after six and just re-wrote the last two to end the series he'd have fulfilled that intellectual promise.

If you just wrote book 1 and stuck an epilogue at the end saying, by the way, Rand later went to TG and won he would still have fulfilled this "promise" you've invented.

When did you start reading the series?

After KoD was released. I was lured in by promises of it being the penultimate book. Well, that and my library had the first book, while a local second hand bookshop had the next three, so I could make a good start on the series for a failrly small cost. And I'd already read New Spring in Legends.

We were promised four books, then six, then eight and then that book 12 would be the last book.

No, you weren't. I've looked through a lot of RJ statements on the issue, turns out he didn't promise four, six or eight. He did promise twelve, though, no disagreement there. He thought he could get done in three when he initially sold the series to Tor, but he signed a contract for six anyway, and even when he said three it wasn't set in stone. By the time he was saying eight it was a best guess, emphatically not a promise.

 

Even you have to be aware of that schism among the fan base.

I'm aware. There being a lot of you doesn't imply you have a good point. Art is not a democracy.

 

He chose to write books for himself, which is great.

Yeah, about book 1 or thereabouts.

 

Accept that they do fit and in breaking them he alienated a huge chunk of his readers.

Accept that many more of his readers are content to stick with the series anyway. Accept that rules are made to be broken.

 

Jordan hadn't lost his way and had only stuck to his original pace.

He worte them as fast as he could. So he couldn't have stuck to that pace.

 

The way things played out, with 2-3 years between subsequent volumes, we've all had too much time to mull each succeeding work, and notice all the parts that just don't sit right. Too much time to "discuss", ( really,  wrangle about ) them. Too much time to notice the warts.

Complete crap.

 

Anytime an author and publisher bring a series to market there is an implicit contract with the reader that the story WILL be completed - and in a timely manner.

No, there isn't. The authors contract is with the publisher, not the reader. The reader's is with the bookstore where he or she buys his or her copy. You might want to study contract law at least a little before you start talking about things you know nothing about.

Wotmania being merely the latest of those. Wotmania is especially puzzling given that the finish-line is now in-sight.

Well, I'm not sure I'm qualified to talk about why WoTmania decided to close its doors, but I'm pretty sure you're not either.

 

So, whatever Jordan thought would come as such a huge surprise obviously fell totally flat.

The problem with the "gasp moment" is that we cannot be expected to give a damn about a group of fictional people who we know nothing about. The Amayar (who?) commit suicide (so what?). And yet RJ is also criticised for spending too much time on minor characters. Seems like he can't win. He gives them no time, we don't care, he gives them time, how dare he take time away from our precious main characters.

[Arkelias]

Mr Ares, I could disect your post and respond to each individual point but it wouldn't change your mind so I won't.  Obviously, you are not a writer and clearly do not understand the implicit promise.  It has nothing to do with contracts or contract law, both of which I am very well versed in by the way.  You remain blind to my point, which is unfortunate but I don't see a way to correct that.  You will believe as you believe and further discussion isn't going to change that.

 

I did want to address a couple of your points though.  In your post you repeatedly dismissed my opinion with comments like:

 

What you care about and what is important to the story are not the same thing.

 

and

 

I'm aware. There being a lot of you doesn't imply you have a good point. Art is not a democracy.

 

The latter really strikes home.  In your opinion whether or not I like the series is irrelevant.  My opinion is irrelevant.  If I don't like the books I'm an idiot just like all the other reviewers on Amazon. 

 

It couldn't be that all of us have a valid point, that the story wandered or there is a problem.  It must be that you glean some special hidden meaning and that the rest of us are incapable of recognizing the genius before us.

 

The fact that we've been loyal fans for nearly twenty years doesn't matter.  The fact that we were the people who made the series possible doesn't matter.  It was the fans who allowed Jordan to stay home and write, because we purchased his books.  But we don't matter.

 

Its a pity that such a narrow minded view is so prevalent on these boards.  I realize I can't change that, and I apologize for starting such a controversial discussion.  This series is far more important to people than I ever could have expected, and the knee jerk responses have been borderline insulting to me personally even though none of you know me and I've been respectful.

 

This will be my final response in this thread, and on these boards.  I'm glad that so many of you enjoy the books, I'm sorry my opinons don't jive with yours.  I am no the first new person I've seen chased away as I lurked for a while before I posted.  I'm sure I won't be the last.

 

Clearly this is not a place so much for open and intriguing discussion as it is for people to extoll the virtues of the series.  I realize that now, and respectfully bow out.  Not that I expect anyone to know that, as this post will most likely be deleted by a mod. 

 

Either way keep reading and take care.

 

 

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Be well, Arkelias.

 

If you do decide to stick around, a couple of things to keep-in-mind:

 

If Mr. Ares and Majsju consistently disagree with you, you're probably doing something right.

If Mr. Ares and Majsju consistently deride you with personal insults, you're definitely doing something right.

 

They both say far more about themselves than they do about you or your ideas with everything they post.

[Rand Skywalker]

Arkelias,

 

It would be a shame for these boards to loose you.  I registered here so I could chime in and say that I appreciate your posts--although I don't agree with a lot of what you say.  You give intelligent and insightful comments.  The push-pull of criticisms and defenses really add to the board. 

 

[WWWwombat]

I think both of you guys need to chill out.

 

Also

I am no the first new person I've seen chased away as I lurked for a while before I posted.

 

ILLIANER DETECTED

[Balefire to da face!]

Damn Arkelias, you new to the internet? If Ares can chase you off a site you need to grow a thicker skin.

 

Anyone recall the Simpson's episode where Bart saves a girl from some upper class bullies and she's like "Thank you so much for saving me from those bullies". And he's like, "Those aren't bullies, THAT'S a bully" and it shows Nelson sitting on top of butler, making him hit himself, going, "Quite butlering yourself"?

 

Yeah....the "bullies" around here are pretty tame. Suck it up!

 

And sorry, no amount of rationalizing will make Perrin's role in the last 6 books anything but awful. Face it, Jordan just wasn't sure what to do with Perrin, and he needed some filler.

 

We needed to watch Perrin chase Faile for 3 books to get the full impact? Really? Then why was I on the verge of tears when Faile and Perrin reunited at the end of The Shadow Rising and yet didn't feel a damn thing when Perrin, inexplicaply brained some poor Shaido bastard to finally free Faile?

 

Go on, anyone who is a fan of Perrin and was genuinely touched by them reuniting at the end of The Shadow Rising tell me that you were actually emotionally moved when Perrin finally rescued Faile. Honestly, don't just defend the book....tell me that you were thinking anything other then "FINALLY" or "Why the hell did that poor bastard just get brained?".

 

Oh, and another big Perrin plot point; Perrin's flirtation with the way of the leaf, which could have been amazing as a full series arc, with Elyas showing back up and things coming full circle. What do we have as resolution? "Don't cut a trollocs head off, just smash it in with a ten pound hammer. Please explain the great story telling in there for me, cause I would love to see it.

 

I remember someone talking around here about how Mat and Rand have thier part to play as ta'veren in the Last Battle, and Perrin seems to them to be the kind of guy that will be the builder. The guy who picks up the pieces after Tarmon Gaidon and rebuilds. To me that seems like a perfect role for Perrin, and the scene where he throws the ax away and is finally able to build and not destroy would have been perfect. AFTER he is actually able to put battle behind him. What is the point of making Perrin throw away his ax if he is still going into battle and smashing people's heads in with a hammer?!?!

 

Seriously, I am not someone who trounces the latter half of the series. I am really not. I visited these boards around the time shortly before and after Crossroads of Twilight was out and everyone was slamming the last half of the series back then. I defended it more then I slammed it because I thought it was unfair overgenerlization.

 

But the more people come up with lame excuses defending Perrin's storyline, the more I realize just how pointless it's been.....

 

I did it myself. I remember trying to delve some deeper meaning out of Perrin's pointless gesture of throwing away the ax. Or why exactly other then shock value that Rolan got brained for no particular reason with no particular impact on Faile. "Hmmm....the only person that's been decent to me in the time I have been a captive just got brained....oh well, time for a loving embrace with my hubby!".

[Mr Ares]

Obviously, you are not a writer and clearly do not understand the implicit promise.

There is no implicit promise. Furthermore, the promise you claimed existed wasn't even broken by CoT. Unless you can show what promise exists, and how it was broken, you have nothing with regards to this point.

This will be my final response in this thread, and on these boards.

I can't say this is a huge loss. After all, if you're not going to bother to take the time to understand what people are saying against you, and respond to it, you're just wasting their time. Like your "implicit promise", shattered by CoT according to you, yet you can't say how.

It has nothing to do with contracts or contract law

Another example, as that was addressed to Bob, who did drag contracts into it.

You remain blind to my point

No, I see your point, I just disagree. There's a difference.

 

The latter really strikes home.

Good, it was meant to. The story can need elements that you're not a big fan of them, yet you confuse "I don't like" with "it doesn't need". A lot of people saying they don't like something only indicates they don't like it. Many Amazon reviewers, both those giving good reviews and bad, and others elsewhere, cannot give good enough reasons. Exaggerated criticism, statements that clearly indicate they haven't understood what went on (not they understood and didn't like it, which is different), complaints about trivia (the prologue is too long) and the like do nothing aty all to further the case that CoT or any of the other books are bad. I'm not saying there aren't reasons, I'm saying you're not doing a good enough job of giving them, nor are most of the people on Amazon (and it's not really reasonable to go through several hundred bits of dross to find a good one when it's not that reviewer I'm debating with. I don't really care if your feelings are hurt. Your argument is rubbish, find a better one. I'm willing to debate if you are, but I don't want to read any further whining on your part.

 

If Mr Ares and Majsju consistently disagree with you, you're probably doing something right.

Which part of putting forward a bad argument is right?

 

They both say far more about themselves than they do about you or your ideas with everything they post.

I, for one, can say enough about both. For example: You're talking crap. I'm wonderful. Both statements are very true.

 

Yeah....the "bullies" around here are pretty tame.

There aren't any bullies around here.

 

And sorry, no amount of rationalizing will make Perrin's role in the last 6 books anything but awful.

Yeah, it was completely awful when he saved Rand at Dumai's Wells.

 

We needed to watch Perrin chase Faile for 3 books to get the full impact?

No. Timeline. If he did it before then, he would either need to be ahead of everyone else, or sit around twiddling his thumbs with nothing to do. The problem is not the number of books it took.

inexplicaply brained some poor Shaido bastard to finally free Faile?

I think you just explained it right there. Shaido=enemy, remember? Kill enemy.

 

Go on, anyone who is a fan of Perrin and was genuinely touched by them reuniting at the end of The Shadow Rising tell me that you were actually emotionally moved when Perrin finally rescued Faile.

I was.

 

"Don't cut a trollocs head off, just smash it in with a ten pound hammer. Please explain the great story telling in there for me, cause I would love to see it.

You know what I said earlier about people who clearly didn't understand what they've read? Prime example.

 

What is the point of making Perrin throw away his ax if he is still going into battle and smashing people's heads in with a hammer?

It is an admisssion that he cannot just destroy, it is with the purpose of creation. The axe symbolised destruction, but the hammer, in Perrin's mind, also carried with it the possibility of creation, so he was turning his back on pointless destruction. In the aftermath of just having tortured someone with that axe. That's exactly the thing he's turning his back on.

 

"Hmmm....the only person that's been decent to me in the time I have been a captive just got brained....oh well, time for a loving embrace with my hubby!".

You mean "Hmmm...the only person that's been decent to me has just been kill by my hubby, but I'll keep quiet about him to spare him the guilt."

[wavemistresstrammell]

Mr. Ares, you crack me up. I always laugh when I read anything you've posted (in a good way).

 

I will admit that after LoC I got a little bored, but I know Brandon Sanderson won't let us down with the last three books. I've read all of his books and I was completely satisfied with them. We can't be mad that Rj passed away, that's silly... what was he supposed to do about it? Not die? Sounds kinda childish to me. Let the poor man rest in piece without knocking him down for continuing to write a series he enjoyed writing. (Not meaning to sound rude if I do... no offense meant I really don't want to fight with anyone right now... suffice it to say I'm a tad mad at this moment which is why I'm afraid of offending... yeah weird huh?)

 

And no, I haven't been reading the series since it first came out... would have been kind of cool to know a 3 year old reading the series though huh? I just started reading it in March after my husband made me when he started reading it in Iraq.

 

Anywho... uh... liked the series overall, PoD-CoT wasn't what I expected, but I sucked it up and read them... uhh... that's all I got.

[Mr Ares]

would have been kind of cool to know a 3 year old reading the series though huh?

It would indeed. Especially for one of the board members who was older than three when the series started coming out.

 

Mr. Ares, you crack me up. I always laugh when I read anything you've posted (in a good way).

*signs autograph*

[wavemistresstrammell]

Mr. Ares, you crack me up. I always laugh when I read anything you've posted (in a good way).

*signs autograph*

*Frames autograph and hangs it on wall* Why thank you! Just what I always wanted! Haha :p

[Arkelias]

I think people misunderstood my desire to stop posting here, so I decided to add one more post to more clearly explain.  I'm not leaving because I can't debate with people like Mr. Ares, though I have admit watching him strut like a peacock after 'beating' me has been pretty funny.  More so after encouragement by wavemistresstrammell.  It's like watching Beavis and Butthead after they think they've been clever. "Huh huh, we have beards."

 

Ares, you couldn't argue your way out of a wet paper bag.  All of your arguments amount to "I'm right because I said so!" but leave out critical things like logic, perspective and an understanding of things like facts.

 

No, the reason I've decided to leave the boards are the mods.  You see I'm tired of having comments like:

 

I don't really care if your feelings are hurt. Your argument is rubbish, find a better one. I'm willing to debate if you are, but I don't want to read any further whining on your part

 

Thrown in my face.  Obviously that statement is meant to be insulting.  Am I alone in seeing that?  Its scornful, derisive and not designed to promote debate.  Its designed to ridicule.  Yet you'll notice a mod hasn't said a word about it.  If I, on the other hand, were to post something like that it would be deleted inside of an hour with a line from a mod telling me to mind my manners.

 

I can argue with the best of them, but when the mods redact or remove my posts while allowing asses like Mr. Ares to say whatever they like it gets a old.  Quickly.  Either let us have it out or redact both sides.  Since they aren't willing to do that I see no reason to keep debating.  I understand they have to handycap people or Ares will end up looking like an idiot, but I don't like being hamstrung for his benefit.

 

Obviously I hold an unpopular opinion here.  I don't mind arguing from that stance, when I am actually allowed to argue.  And yes there are bullies here, they just aren't the posters (even the people like Ares who hold an exaggerated opinion of themselves and the belief that they are right even with the complete absence of facts or a coherent argument).  No, the bullies are the mods who feel they need to quell one side, but not the other.

 

If they stop shielding asses, then I have no problem debating.  Your tone is insulting Mr. Ares.  I should be allowed to respond in kind, but I'm not.

 

There is no implicit promise.

 

This is my favorite quote by Mr. Ares.  If he were to utter a comment like this on say, the Tanchico board on these very forums he'd get laughed out of there because anyone trained as a writer knows he's wrong.  It really amuses me that he actually believes he's right, and thinks he's won the argument.  Way to prove your own ignorance.

 

Ever taken a writing course Ares?  I didn't think so.  Ever read a book on writing?  I didn't think so.  Yet somehow you're the literary expert able to declare the Wheel of Time above reproach with your vast amount of literary training.  There's a word for what you are, for those who argue vehemently but without substance or knowledge.  They are called fan boys.

 

I, for one, can say enough about both. For example: You're talking crap. I'm wonderful. Both statements are very true.

 

Gems like this are great too.  You go Ares!  I'm glad that you're so secure in your own superiority that you can overlook little things like your own ignorance!

 

I can't say this is a huge loss. After all, if you're not going to bother to take the time to understand what people are saying against you, and respond to it, you're just wasting their time. Like your "implicit promise", shattered by CoT according to you, yet you can't say how

 

I did take the time to understand what you're saying, but when you lead with gems like 'you're opinion doesn't matter' it renders argument moot.  Pot, this is kettle.  You're black.  You've not listened to a single thing I've said.  If you did a little homework you'd learn what the implicit promise is, and believe me I can explain exactly how it was broken.  The question is can you comprehend my answer?  I know you can read the words, but can you actually understand what I am saying?  I tend to doubt it.

 

When you set out to write a story you chose one of several forms.  The most common are the character driven story and the event driven story.  Like the implicit promise these are literary terms.  Just because your great and powerful self hasn't heard of them doesn't make that any less true.  It just makes you ignorant of their existence.

 

Regardless of which form you choose if you alter it midstream it will alienate your readers, and many won't even be able to put their finger on why.  This is well known in the literary world, and a pitfall every new writer is taught to avoid.  Or are you going to tell me these don't exist either, just like you did with the promise?

 

A character driven story presents a cast of characters who will be central to the plot.  You will see them learn and grow and ultimately triumph.  The focus of the story are these people and how they change, not on the events around them.  Good examples of this type of story are Lord of the Rings and the first five books in the Wheel of Time.

 

We see three farmboys and two farmgirls leave Edmond's Field as children.  They have no understanding of their world beyond the village, and you as the reader take a journey of discovery where you learn who these people are, and get to see how they react and change in the face of fantastic events.  Do you disagree with this or the fact that the first half of the story was character driven?

 

The event driven story focuses on a specific event, and considers the cast of characters less important than the event itself.  These are usually identifiable by a wide cast of characters that aren't given as much development.  The second half of the Wheel of Time is a great example.  It focuses on Tarmon Gaidon, not on Rand and the Edmond's Field crew.  We are told of many, many characters, but are no longer seeing the deep change of emotion, motivation and experience of a few specific characters.

 

So, in the beginning the series was a character driven story.  In the second half it became an event driven story.  That is how the implicit promise was broken.  I understand that explaining to you is futile, because your next move is going to be finding parts of my post you think you can pick apart.

 

You won't actually look at or consider my point, no you're focused on being right not on having a discussion.  Now you're going to respond about contract law or with some other completely meaningless bullshit like 'art isn't a democracy'. 

 

What does that even mean?  That this series is art, but the work of other fantasy authors is not?  Its a cheap cop out designed to silence opposition.  Its also your only tactic, Ares.  You can't actually respond in a rational manner.  All you can do is try to attack my credibility, and say that my opinion doesn't matter.

 

You've said you aren't afraid to debate.  Learn what a character driven story is.  Learn what an event driven story is.  Learn what the implicit promise is.  Don't just assume that I made them up and scoff at them, because it only makes you look like a dipshit.  Actually use logic and facts.  Or shut up, because you only prove your own ignorance.

 

I know, I know.  The first mod who happens by this post is going to redact the crap out of it leaving Ares and his sycophants to crow about how awesome they are.  God forbid people actually be able to respond in kind to insulting posts.  I expect that and again, this is why I've decided to stop posting here.

 

Good, it was meant to. The story can need elements that you're not a big fan of them, yet you confuse "I don't like" with "it doesn't need". A lot of people saying they don't like something only indicates they don't like it. Many Amazon reviewers, both those giving good reviews and bad, and others elsewhere, cannot give good enough reasons.

 

This is where you need to put your money where your mouth is, but ultimately you will fail again I'm sure.  Let me make this as basic as possible.  I'll ask questions and see if you can actually answer them Ares.

 

Over the last six pages of this thread I've given countless reasons on why the Perrin chasing Faile storyline and the Elayne taking the throne of Andor storyline were boring, repetative and unnecessary to the greater story.  They were boring filler.

 

The best response you can come up with is 'they are necessary for the story'.  How?  How was it necessary for Perrin to chase Faile for three books?  Your response was that he needed to be in a certain place by a certain time in the timeline, right?

 

Why was it necessary to give the reader chapter after chapter about him reaching that point?  You could have cut every chapter but a few and still had Perrin rescue Faile and be where he needed to be.  The boring chapters were boring and uncessesary.  Again, put your money where your mouth is.

 

Actually explain to us all how these chapters furthered the story.  How did chapter after chapter of 'only Faile is important' move the story forward?  What did it do that a few well written chapters did not?  What would have been lost?

 

Now repeat the process for the Elayne story arc.  How would cutting it to a few chapters have impacted the story negatively?  Seriouesly, don't dodge.  Don't disemminate.  Don't insult.  Just answer the question.  Dazzle us with the amazing debate skills you claim to have.

 

Not that we haven't seen them at work with gems like this:

 

I think you just explained it right there. Shaido=enemy, remember? Kill enemy.

 

The question he asked wasn't why Perrin killed a shaido, it was why we are the reader cared.  How about you try actually answering his question?  Why did the reader care that Perrin dropped Roland, not why did Perrin do it.  See the difference?  I know you can if you try.

 

But you don't.  You think your quick knee jerk responses are brilliant, when they are mostly just annoying.  It makes people frustrated, because what you are doing is intellectually dishonest.  You know the point he's trying to make, and you know you don't have a good answer.  So instead of admit that you shift tactics.  You use obsfucation to avoid answering the question asked, and instead choose to answer one you feel you can defend.

 

Fail.  Don't insult my debate skills until you actually find some of your own.

 

There, I feel better even though I know the mods will remove this.  Hopefully some of the people involved here see this post before they do.  Now, some final answers to people before I move on.

 

Balesire said:

Anyone recall the Simpson's episode where Bart saves a girl from some upper class bullies and she's like "Thank you so much for saving me from those bullies". And he's like, "Those aren't bullies, THAT'S a bully" and it shows Nelson sitting on top of butler, making him hit himself, going, "Quite butlering yourself"?

 

I literally spit soda when I read this.  Thanks, Balefire.  I'm tried of having mods sit on me and tell me 'quit butlering yourself' though.

 

Wombat said"

ILLIANER DETECTED

 

This really cracked me up as well.  Way to turn a simple typo into something so amusing =p

 

 

Rand Skywalker said:

It would be a shame for these boards to loose you.  I registered here so I could chime in and say that I appreciate your posts--although I don't agree with a lot of what you say.  You give intelligent and insightful comments.  The push-pull of criticisms and defenses really add to the board.

 

I think the push pull of critism is the mortar that holds together the foundation of a board.  If I was allowed the freedom to respond this place would be great for that reason!  But being a stooge propped up to be beat on by the fan boys is not fun, let me tell you.

 

And finally Bob T Dwarf said:

If Mr. Ares and Majsju consistently disagree with you, you're probably doing something right.

If Mr. Ares and Majsju consistently deride you with personal insults, you're definitely doing something right.

 

They both say far more about themselves than they do about you or your ideas with everything they post.

 

Thank you.  At least a couple of people see the same thing I do, and its good to know I wasn't alone.

 

Best read this post quick, it won't be here for long I'm sure!

 

 

 

[wavemistresstrammell]

More so after encouragement by wavemistresstrammell. It's like watching Beavis and Butthead after they think they've been clever

 

You need to learn to take a joke then my dear. You're way to serious. Quiet frankly I don't really care how you feel about me but you have no reason to be rude. And to compare me to Beavis and Butthead? That's just idiotic and you're being childish now.

[Bob T Dwarf]

There's a lot of truth in that, Arkelias.

 

The saddest part being that more than one Moderator is a bully and that nothing is done about it.

 

All any of us can do is to push-on anyway, ignoring the boors in the luxury boxes.

[Mr. Micawber]

You know what I envisioned? More lovin'!

 

I was expecting Rand to start having to deal with the physical difficulties of being with three different women, and *bam!* all we got was an 18 year old unwed mother. And frankly, I don't know why he's fooling himself, the dude's totally a 20 year old with three smoking hot babes, but he's constantly saying that only Min doesn't make him feel like crap, and he spends the vast majority of his sexing time with her. Like 99%. They're going at it every night.

 

Mat, my main man, I thought was going to woo his wife after escaping boy-toy status, but instead, Tuon turns out to have not hit puberty very hard. And seems totally uninterested in getting it on.

 

Egwene, I just have to shake my head about. If I were her, I'd cut a gateway straight to wherever Gawyn is, grab him to go see Elayne so he stops being such a jackhole, and then explain to him that women aren't porcelain dolls, and by God they have needs just as much as any man.

 

And Berelain, if Perrin's not up for it, frankly, that's not such a problem, seeing as he's turned psycho these days. You've got to find yourself a new man, whether it's Galad, or Derek Jeter in a Yankees home uniform. Or woman, whatever, but you're the hottest character in the series, you're way more comfortable with your sexuality than any of the other male or female characters, and you're crazy smart.

[Mr. Micawber]

Of course, it's not like this all needed to happen on screen, but seriously.

[wavemistresstrammell]

You know what I envisioned? More lovin'!

 

I was expecting Rand to start having to deal with the physical difficulties of being with three different women, and *bam!* all we got was an 18 year old unwed mother. And frankly, I don't know why he's fooling himself, the dude's totally a 20 year old with three smoking hot babes, but he's constantly saying that only Min doesn't make him feel like crap, and he spends the vast majority of his sexing time with her. Like 99%. They're going at it every night.

Yeah I don't know about you but the Rand/Min thing gets on my nerves. I understand why he doesn't like to be around Elayne, but Aviendha? After she gets over everything that happened in the Waste, she's not bad at all and her POVs are hilarious.

 

Mat, my main man, I thought was going to woo his wife after escaping boy-toy status, but instead, Tuon turns out to have not hit puberty very hard. And seems totally uninterested in getting it on.

Yeah I was wondering about the whole Mat/Tuon thing too. He could do well in the military here in these days, being gone for a year would be a breeze for him.

 

Egwene, I just have to shake my head about. If I were her, I'd cut a gateway straight to wherever Gawyn is, grab him to go see Elayne so he stops being such a jackhole, and then explain to him that women aren't porcelain dolls, and by God they have needs just as much as any man.

I thought the same thing about Egwene, but she doesn't know where exactly Gawyn is right? Hopefully she'll see him in TGS. Unfortunately she wouldn't be able to get to him because of the forkroot :(

 

And Berelain, if Perrin's not up for it, frankly, that's not such a problem, seeing as he's turned psycho these days. You've got to find yourself a new man, whether it's Galad, or Derek Jeter in a Yankees home uniform. Or woman, whatever, but you're the hottest character in the series, you're way more comfortable with your sexuality than any of the other male or female characters, and you're crazy smart.

I don't like Berelain... Perrin better not be up for that or he's going to findhimself missing something very important if Faile found out... I wouldn't put that past her haha.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mightyshug]

Well said Arkelias.

[Arkelias]

More so after encouragement by wavemistresstrammell. It's like watching Beavis and Butthead after they think they've been clever

 

You need to learn to take a joke then my dear. You're way to serious. Quiet frankly I don't really care how you feel about me but you have no reason to be rude. And to compare me to Beavis and Butthead? That's just idiotic and you're being childish now.

 

Mr Ares post was insulting towards me.  If you can't see that you're blind.  Your response was to high five him for slamming me.  That's childish and does nothing to further the discussion here. 

 

I didn't get 'way too serious' until I was insulted repeatedly, and the mods let it slide.  No one likes being insulted.  See?  Look how you reacted.  Kind of annoying isn't it?

 

Maybe next time you see one user slamming another it might be a good idea not to chime in about how amusing it was?  You picked this fight.  You can't be surprised at the outcome.

[wavemistresstrammell]

More so after encouragement by wavemistresstrammell. It's like watching Beavis and Butthead after they think they've been clever

 

You need to learn to take a joke then my dear. You're way to serious. Quiet frankly I don't really care how you feel about me but you have no reason to be rude. And to compare me to Beavis and Butthead? That's just idiotic and you're being childish now.

Mr Ares post was insulting towards me.  If you can't see that you're blind.  Your response was to high five him for slamming me.  That's childish and does nothing to further the discussion here. 

 

I didn't get 'way too serious' until I was insulted repeatedly, and the mods let it slide.  No one likes being insulted.  See?  Look how you reacted.  Kind of annoying isn't it?

 

Maybe next time you see one user slamming another it might be a good idea not to chime in about how amusing it was?  You picked this fight.  You can't be surprised at the outcome.

Apparently you have no idea what sarcasm is. If you have a problem with what someone says than dear you just have to let it fly over your shoulder. I guarantee you're going to hear worse somewhere else.

I don't see how he hasn't supported any of his opinions in a satisfactory way for you. You're just being rude and trying to shove your own opinion down peoples throats because you're right and everyone else is wrong. I've stated on here several times when I disagree with someone I'll leave it at that so that something like this doesn't happen.

Beavis and Butthead is way worse you jerkwad, I say that with all the love I can muster up for a complete stranger, although I have to applaud that comment, it was funny. You see, we must have complete opposite senses of humor... my friends and I always talk like that to each other *shrugs* we know each other well enough to not take offense at comments like that.

The only thing that's annoying me right now is the fact that you can't take a joke, loosen up and be glad I haven't actually jumped on board for flinging insults. I was trained by the masters, my dysfuncional family!

I take everything lightly.. most of the time. Laughing is so much more fun than being mad ^.^

 

Seriously.. is your family normal? Can we trade please?

[Arkelias]

I'm very aware of what sarcasm is.  Your post to Mr. Ares was pretty clear.  You read his response to me and laughed.  What sarcasm was I missing there?  Did you not think it was funny?  Your post certainly suggested otherwise.

 

I also can't believe you're lecturing me about turning the other cheek:

If you have a problem with what someone says than dear you just have to let it fly over your shoulder. I guarantee you're going to hear worse somewhere else

 

Don't call me dear, its condescending.  If you really believed that why wouldn't you have ignored my Beavis and Butthead comment instead of posting not once but twice about it?  Pot, this is kettle.  You're black.  

 

I don't see how he hasn't supported any of his opinions in a satisfactory way for you. You're just being rude and trying to shove your own opinion down peoples throats because you're right and everyone else is wrong.

 

I'm happy to explain.  Anytime you tell someone 'your opinion doesn't matter' instead of explaining to them why you think their opinion is wrong you've stopped debating and started lecturing.  If you look at his posts he uses phrases like 'you don't matter' all the time.  He rarely answers questions I ask or tries to explain why he's right.  He just attacks.

 

I'm not 'just being rude'.  I started this discussion and remained civil throughout.  Until my most recent post I didn't say anything you could construe as rude, and when I finally did it was a response to being treated exactly how you've said I shouldn't.  So, its ok for him but not for me?  I don't bloody think so.

 

How is it I'm trying to shove my opinion down people's throats, exactly?  How is my post in any way different from Mr. Ares?  What is it you feel I'm doing that he isn't, or is bad about my post but fine in his?

 

I've asked people their opinion, and debated them about it.  Those who feel differently than me have explained, and I've given their arguments the respect they deserve.  Again, re-read this thread if you doubt that.  It wasn't until Mr. Ares final attempt to get his digs in that I got upset.  I have every right to be too.

 

Beavis and Butthead is way worse you jerkwad, I say that with all the love I can muster up for a complete stranger, although I have to applaud that comment, it was funny.

 

If the comment is funny why were you so upset by it?  Scroll up and re-read your response.  It seems pretty clear it bothered you.  I stand by it, by the way.  It was totally appropriate given the interplay between you and Ares.

 

You see, we must have complete opposite senses of humor... my friends and I always talk like that to each other *shrugs* we know each other well enough to not take offense at comments like that.

 

But you were quite clearly offended by that comment otherwise why would you have brought it up at all?  Also, you don't know me.  I am not your friend.  Why would you expect me or anyone else you don't know to react well to insults?  You don't see that as childish or at the very least short sighted?

 

The only thing that's annoying me right now is the fact that you can't take a joke, loosen up and be glad I haven't actually jumped on board for flinging insults.

 

It wasn't a joke and anyone who reads this thread will be aware of that fact.  I'll bet money when Ares responds it will not be to tell me his earlier post was a joke. It will be with more of the same vitriol.  

 

If you want to fling insults yourself, bring it.  I'll answer in kind.  If, on the other hand, you actually want to debate and discuss then how about you try doing that.  How about you answer the questions I posed and stop attacking me directly?

 

EDIT: I realize that I'm not longer posting about the topic of the thread.  Wavemistress, if you want to keep discussing this should we move it to PMs instead so not everyone has to listen to us?  I'd appreciate that.  Ares, if you're going to argue your points I'd love to see that hear.  If you've got personal comments please PM me and we can discuss it.

 

[Balefire to da face!]

Haha, thank you Ark for taking the time to post something that I really didn't feel like taking the time to do :D

 

While I try not to be quite as....inflamed at Ares I think you are pretty spot on. While many of us have fun discussing the series and throw out our ideas and opinions of the series in the interest of discussing things, and maybe even *gasp* seeing things from another point of view or even, god forbid, having our minds changed about something Ares does seem to be the type that prefers the "this how things are, end of story" method. Which, I have always found to be a pretty self-defeating stance on a discussion board, but oh well....

 

Dunno if it's just his personality, or he has just spent so much time around the series and this site that he has zero patience for any diviation from what has come to be accepted as popular opinion or likely directions for plot and unanswered questions. He does seem to go the extra mile to be condescending though....

 

Either way, I can understand more what you said about the mods. But hey, you allow someone to bait you into posting what you did(angry tone + sprinklings of nono words) and you aren't exactly making it tough on the mods to smack you up. I still say suck it up...if you enjoy posting here don't let anyone butler you outta here :P

[WWWwombat]

I think this thread needs a Bela joke to relieve the tension. *checks knee cops*

[wavemistresstrammell]

I'm very aware of what sarcasm is.  Your post to Mr. Ares was pretty clear.  You read his response to me and laughed.  What sarcasm was I missing there?  Did you not think it was funny?  Your post certainly suggested otherwise.

 

I also can't believe you're lecturing me about turning the other cheek:

If you have a problem with what someone says than dear you just have to let it fly over your shoulder. I guarantee you're going to hear worse somewhere else

 

Don't call me dear, its condescending.  If you really believed that why wouldn't you have ignored my Beavis and Butthead comment instead of posting not once but twice about it?  Pot, this is kettle.  You're black.  

 

I don't see how he hasn't supported any of his opinions in a satisfactory way for you. You're just being rude and trying to shove your own opinion down peoples throats because you're right and everyone else is wrong.

 

I'm happy to explain.  Anytime you tell someone 'your opinion doesn't matter' instead of explaining to them why you think their opinion is wrong you've stopped debating and started lecturing.  If you look at his posts he uses phrases like 'you don't matter' all the time.  He rarely answers questions I ask or tries to explain why he's right.  He just attacks.

 

I'm not 'just being rude'.  I started this discussion and remained civil throughout.  Until my most recent post I didn't say anything you could construe as rude, and when I finally did it was a response to being treated exactly how you've said I shouldn't.  So, its ok for him but not for me?  I don't bloody think so.

 

How is it I'm trying to shove my opinion down people's throats, exactly?  How is my post in any way different from Mr. Ares?  What is it you feel I'm doing that he isn't, or is bad about my post but fine in his?

 

I've asked people their opinion, and debated them about it.  Those who feel differently than me have explained, and I've given their arguments the respect they deserve.  Again, re-read this thread if you doubt that.  It wasn't until Mr. Ares final attempt to get his digs in that I got upset.  I have every right to be too.

 

Beavis and Butthead is way worse you jerkwad, I say that with all the love I can muster up for a complete stranger, although I have to applaud that comment, it was funny.

 

If the comment is funny why were you so upset by it?  Scroll up and re-read your response.  It seems pretty clear it bothered you.  I stand by it, by the way.  It was totally appropriate given the interplay between you and Ares.

 

You see, we must have complete opposite senses of humor... my friends and I always talk like that to each other *shrugs* we know each other well enough to not take offense at comments like that.

 

But you were quite clearly offended by that comment otherwise why would you have brought it up at all?  Also, you don't know me.  I am not your friend.  Why would you expect me or anyone else you don't know to react well to insults?  You don't see that as childish or at the very least short sighted?

 

The only thing that's annoying me right now is the fact that you can't take a joke, loosen up and be glad I haven't actually jumped on board for flinging insults.

 

It wasn't a joke and anyone who reads this thread will be aware of that fact.  I'll bet money when Ares responds it will not be to tell me his earlier post was a joke. It will be with more of the same vitriol.  

 

If you want to fling insults yourself, bring it.  I'll answer in kind.  If, on the other hand, you actually want to debate and discuss then how about you try doing that.  How about you answer the questions I posed and stop attacking me directly?

 

EDIT: I realize that I'm not longer posting about the topic of the thread.  Wavemistress, if you want to keep discussing this should we move it to PMs instead so not everyone has to listen to us?  I'd appreciate that.  Ares, if you're going to argue your points I'd love to see that hear.  If you've got personal comments please PM me and we can discuss it.

 

Yes because none of your responses are silly. I call everyone dear.. EVERYONE. That's me, I don't say it in a condescending way, that's just how I talk to people. You're not going to change my mind about anything I've already said, I've already stated my thoughts and either we agree or disagree.

You know, this is the only way I get to relax and have fun, I'm living in a completely different state where I don't know anyone. My entire family lives 1200 miles away from me, and I have 2 kids. People like you are taking the only place, where I felt that I could actually enjoy talking to people, away from me. I don't see how you're any better than anyone else on here and I don't appreciate the way you're talking to me. I think you're a jackass, and I thought you were being just as rude to everyone else on here.

What in the world is PM? I haven't been here very long so I have no idea what you'e talking about. (I read the topics for newcomers, so if it's there I guessI overlooked it) I don't see how I didn't answer your original question and if you had paid attention to my earlier responses you would have seen that. I don't see how I haven't supported my opinions about the topic so please feel free to tell me what I did wrong. Just  because we all haven't been in writing courses doesn't mean our opinions are null and void. Your topic, therefor, is misleading and should have said 'Everyone who doesn't like the second half of the series sound off here'. Just because I actually liked it doesn't mean I'm wrong, it just means that my taste in reading is a little different and I don't see why that's wrong.