Re Reading The Dragon Reborn

[Hot_Soup]

I had only read the series once before this. I remember not liking The Dragon Reborn the first time through as much as the two before it. I think that was mostly because I was annoyed that there was very little Rand in it, and I was expecting him to do, well, Dragon Reborny stuff all throughout.

 

This time through I'm enjoying it a lot more. A few things.

 

First I just read a part where Rand kills 11 random people for no apparent reason. They just show up and he kills them all, no real explanation. I think one is hinted at being a Gray Man, but he only notices him after he's killed everyone. After that he makes their dead bodies kneel to him. Really. That's some crazy paranoid stuff right there. The whole book he seems crazier and more paranoid than any other book except maybe really late in the series. Anyway, didn't this bother anyone?

 

I like Faile. At least in this part of the series. I remember not really disliking her until the kidnapping. Anyone else feel the same.

 

Regarding Mat and his memories. It has always seemed strikingly obvious to me that he was one of the heroes that the wheel spins out time and time again. He yells out in old tongue in the first book, before even the dagger, Aginor recognizes him, I think some of the heroes when he blew the horn did too. I just mention it because some people seem to think he got the memories from the Aelfinn/Eelfinn but when he's getting healed he's ordering soldiers, and later when he wakes up he remembers a battle. So he's the Gambling General Reborn or something like that.

 

I'm annoyed at everyone's ability to pick everything up so quickly. Rand spent like a month training with Lan (who tells him it'd take 5 years to make him worthy of his sword) and is suddenly a blademaster, though that was tGH. Perrin takes on 12 whitecloaks with Gaul I think it is. I could believe Gaul could hold his own, but he can't take on all 12 at once. Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne are all Accepted even though they spent as much time outside the tower as in. What the hell have the learned in that time. Everyone else apparently takes years, but no, the others just know how to use the OP so good after a few months. I think they were only in the tower something like 5 months so far, come to think of it, that's all they were in it in the whole series. 5 months of training, oh, ok, you can go be an Aes Sedai now, good for you. It's like if I went to college and became a full fledged engineer after taking a Statics, Physics, and Calculus course.

 

Don't even get me started on Egwene the immaculate Amyrlin

 

 

[Phariah]

Rand killing the people ... if u remember Perrin in the wolf dream came across Rand dreaming of a fight in a campsite. that was Rand's dream and was a true dream. Rand knew what was gonna happen he dreamt that the DF were gonna attack him. he waited for them till they were at the point he was gonna be attacked. and grey men don't dream so he wouldn't have been in the dream i'm guessing

 

Aginor didn't recognize Mat he recognized the dagger. remember it gave off an aura people deep in the shadow could feel.

 

as for the quick learning well AS don't channel all the time and the wonder girls channeled alot they grew in power by "forcing it" i think its called. and i'm guessing that you can blame some of the quick learning on the old blood. as seen when the wonder girls go down to the WT cellars and Egwene does the light and anchors it than she is like how did i do that than sees Elayne copy her and than she realizes how to do it. 

[Mr Ares]

Regarding Mat and his memories. It has always seemed strikingly obvious to me that he was one of the heroes that the wheel spins out time and time again.

Yes, the complete lack of evidence to support that makes it quite likely. Hawkwing doesn't seem to recognise him at Falme, but he does Rand.

He yells out in old tongue in the first book

Old blood.

Aginor recognizes him

Dagger.

I think some of the heroes when he blew the horn did too.

No. None of them mention recognising Mat or Perrin. Just Rand.

I just mention it because some people seem to think he got the memories from the Aelfinn/Eelfinn

He did.

but when he's getting healed he's ordering soldiers

Old blood.

 

Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne are all Accepted even though they spent as much time outside the tower as in. What the hell have the learned in that time. Everyone else apparently takes years

It takes years in a large part because the AS force their students to learn at a crawl, to avoid losses through people being burnt out or killed during training. A few months of intense training will work wonders. They learnt a lot under Moghedien, and Egwene studied under the Wise Ones, who don't coddle their students in the same way. Also, she was a damane, so the same applies there. It also seems that people who are stronger in the OP learn faster, and all the girls are strong. Rand also progresses by leaps and bounds, especially during and after Asmo's tuition (he learns more with Asmo than in any other comparable period). The Asha'man learn fast, due to their training practices, and Nynaeve was also channeling for a few years, albeit without knowing. And even then, they still don't know it all. Overnight blademastery is a different issue, but how fast they pick up channeling makes sense given all we know.

[OptimusPrime]

The Dragon Reborn was one of my favorite books.

 

I'm annoyed at everyone's ability to pick everything up so quickly. Rand spent like a month training with Lan (who tells him it'd take 5 years to make him worthy of his sword) and is suddenly a blademaster

 

Remember Rand is half-Aiel.

 

Rand killing the people ... if u remember Perrin in the wolf dream came across Rand dreaming of a fight in a campsite. that was Rand's dream and was a true dream. Rand knew what was gonna happen he dreamt that the DF were gonna attack him

 

Wasnt that Perrin foreseeing it in the dream?

[Phariah]

no Perrin got that fire burn from Rand , perrin stepped into Rand's dream or it was Rand's dream taking place in dream land. either or, Perin got the burn and Rand remembered Perrin being there and saying he almost killed Perrin.

[pxnsolid]

no Perrin got that fire burn from Rand , perrin stepped into Rand's dream or it was Rand's dream taking place in dream land. either or, Perin got the burn and Rand remembered Perrin being there and saying he almost killed Perrin.

 

It seems to me, that Rand may be a male dreamer. Ive tried to figure it out, this very concept. he wasnt there physically, yet Perrin and Rand very definatly met in TAR. Theres no evidence that Perrin entered Rands dream, and without being a dreamer, people dont touch the world of dreams for that long, as Rand does for an extended period of time. Egwene also finds Rand, though he doesnt recognize that time that shes real, like he does with Perrin. IIRC (going from memory) this is one of the first times she uses the ring. We know later on he is there physically, as at the end of book 3, he folds reality in a way he doesnt remember doing before and follows Ishy to TAR via gateway. But prior to that, the only other thing is can someone be pulled into TAR and left there until they wake?

[Majsju]

But prior to that, the only other thing is can someone be pulled into TAR and left there until they wake?

 

Yes, people can be pulled into T'a'r, by someone skilled enough. Incidently, Ishy spends most of the book messing around with Rands dreams.

[pxnsolid]

ok i wasnt sure on that, i know they can be pulled into dreams of someones making. but perrin wouldnt have been there too.

[Aiemond]

Regarding Mat and his memories. It has always seemed strikingly obvious to me that he was one of the heroes that the wheel spins out time and time again.

Yes, the complete lack of evidence to support that makes it quite likely. Hawkwing doesn't seem to recognise him at Falme, but he does Rand.

He yells out in old tongue in the first book

Old blood.

Aginor recognizes him

Dagger.

I think some of the heroes when he blew the horn did too.

No. None of them mention recognising Mat or Perrin. Just Rand.

I just mention it because some people seem to think he got the memories from the Aelfinn/Eelfinn

He did.

but when he's getting healed he's ordering soldiers

Old blood.

 

Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne are all Accepted even though they spent as much time outside the tower as in. What the hell have the learned in that time. Everyone else apparently takes years

It takes years in a large part because the AS force their students to learn at a crawl, to avoid losses through people being burnt out or killed during training. A few months of intense training will work wonders. They learnt a lot under Moghedien, and Egwene studied under the Wise Ones, who don't coddle their students in the same way. Also, she was a damane, so the same applies there. It also seems that people who are stronger in the OP learn faster, and all the girls are strong. Rand also progresses by leaps and bounds, especially during and after Asmo's tuition (he learns more with Asmo than in any other comparable period). The Asha'man learn fast, due to their training practices, and Nynaeve was also channeling for a few years, albeit without knowing. And even then, they still don't know it all. Overnight blademastery is a different issue, but how fast they pick up channeling makes sense given all we know.

 

I don't think that the fact that the heroes did not recognize him (or should I say reveal) Mat or Perrin at Falme is enough evidence to say Mat and/or Perrin are not heroes. The focus was on rand, as he is the dragon. He was giving the directions, and it was he that they had to follow. Not only that, the banner was needed. The heroes at falme were there to proclaim him Dragon. Not to talk to Mat and Perrin.

 

As for the old blood...I think Mat was an important battle leader and is spun out by the wheel. You say it is the old blood that is causing mat to order soldiers on Tar Valon. I disagree. The old blood may make them stubborn and make them good stock, but it is not going to make people randomly know things they should not. The orders he was giving, the old tounge he had been spoken..I believe these may be from past lives (I am not clumping the post finn memories in here. They are entirely different).

 

But, I don't think we have enough evidence either way to be conclusive.

[Talmanes]

I'm annoyed at everyone's ability to pick everything up so quickly. Rand spent like a month training with Lan (who tells him it'd take 5 years to make him worthy of his sword) and is suddenly a blademaster, though that was tGH. Perrin takes on 12 whitecloaks with Gaul I think it is. I could believe Gaul could hold his own, but he can't take on all 12 at once. Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne are all Accepted even though they spent as much time outside the tower as in. What the hell have the learned in that time. Everyone else apparently takes years, but no, the others just know how to use the OP so good after a few months. I think they were only in the tower something like 5 months so far, come to think of it, that's all they were in it in the whole series. 5 months of training, oh, ok, you can go be an Aes Sedai now, good for you. It's like if I went to college and became a full fledged engineer after taking a Statics, Physics, and Calculus course.

First off Rand is a natural. He learns quickly and gets more and more skilled as time goes along. The same thing happens to people in the real world. Sometimes people find themselves very good at something they have never done before. Also Rand does not become a Blademaster overnight. Throughout the whole series he is constantly training. There are also instances such as when he fights a true Bladesmaster in Falme, where he nearly is killed because he is not good enough. Also later when sparring in Caemelyn he is beaten when he is fighting three different men at the same time even though he takes out one or two. Even in book one it talks about how Lan trains them all to use their weapons, so their lessons are fairly thorough. When Perrin and Gaul take on those Whitecloaks you must remember that Gaul is an extremely good fighter and can take on many men, and that it is not the first time Perrin has fought with his axe, nor is he unskilled. He is also bigger and stronger than most men witch is a huge advantage in a fight. Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne are also very skilled for a reason. They share virtually everything any of them learns with the others from weather from a windfinder, to all the skills and abilities learned and honed from being a damane. All that plus them being very strong in the first place makes for quick learning. Add Moghedien in the mix and how could they not learn incredibly fast? Egwene was picked to be the Amyrlin because she is very strong in the power, but was supposed to be easily manipulated. She is the one who mad the other two full Aes Sedai,so it wasn't like it was the normal Aes Sedai just saying "here you go your Aes Sedai". The reason that Egwene is so successful is because Siuan tutors her on everything she can about being Amyrlin. So as you see nobody just randomly became skilled, it all happened because of very obvious reasons and through steps and learning.

[Mr Ares]

I don't think that the fact that the heroes did not recognize him (or should I say reveal) Mat or Perrin at Falme is enough evidence to say Mat and/or Perrin are not heroes.

Doesn't rule it out, but suggests they aren't. Nothing to support that they are, so probably aren't.

 

The old blood may make them stubborn and make them good stock, but it is not going to make people randomly know things they should not.

Like it won't make them know how to speak Old Tongue like it does in EotW...hang on. Old Blood is the most likely answer.

[OptimusPrime]

I'm annoyed at everyone's ability to pick everything up so quickly. Rand spent like a month training with Lan (who tells him it'd take 5 years to make him worthy of his sword) and is suddenly a blademaster, though that was tGH. Perrin takes on 12 whitecloaks with Gaul I think it is. I could believe Gaul could hold his own, but he can't take on all 12 at once. Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne are all Accepted even though they spent as much time outside the tower as in. What the hell have the learned in that time. Everyone else apparently takes years, but no, the others just know how to use the OP so good after a few months. I think they were only in the tower something like 5 months so far, come to think of it, that's all they were in it in the whole series. 5 months of training, oh, ok, you can go be an Aes Sedai now, good for you. It's like if I went to college and became a full fledged engineer after taking a Statics, Physics, and Calculus course.

First off Rand is a natural. He learns quickly and gets more and more skilled as time goes along. The same thing happens to people in the real world. Sometimes people find themselves very good at something they have never done before. Also Rand does not become a Blademaster overnight. Throughout the whole series he is constantly training. There are also instances such as when he fights a true Bladesmaster in Falme, where he nearly is killed because he is not good enough. Also later when sparring in Caemelyn he is beaten when he is fighting three different men at the same time even though he takes out one or two. Even in book one it talks about how Lan trains them all to use their weapons, so their lessons are fairly thorough. When Perrin and Gaul take on those Whitecloaks you must remember that Gaul is an extremely good fighter and can take on many men, and that it is not the first time Perrin has fought with his axe, nor is he unskilled. He is also bigger and stronger than most men witch is a huge advantage in a fight. Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne are also very skilled for a reason. They share virtually everything any of them learns with the others from weather from a windfinder, to all the skills and abilities learned and honed from being a damane. All that plus them being very strong in the first place makes for quick learning. Add Moghedien in the mix and how could they not learn incredibly fast? Egwene was picked to be the Amyrlin because she is very strong in the power, but was supposed to be easily manipulated. She is the one who mad the other two full Aes Sedai,so it wasn't like it was the normal Aes Sedai just saying "here you go your Aes Sedai". The reason that Egwene is so successful is because Siuan tutors her on everything she can about being Amyrlin. So as you see nobody just randomly became skilled, it all happened because of very obvious reasons and through steps and learning.

 

Not to mention, say, Moiraine teaching Rand Daes Daemar, or Faile teaching Perrins brain cell how to be a lord. None of them adaptly unrealistically fast when you consider the circumstances.

[Aiemond]

I don't think that the fact that the heroes did not recognize him (or should I say reveal) Mat or Perrin at Falme is enough evidence to say Mat and/or Perrin are not heroes.

Doesn't rule it out, but suggests they aren't. Nothing to support that they are, so probably aren't.

 

The old blood may make them stubborn and make them good stock, but it is not going to make people randomly know things they should not.

Like it won't make them know how to speak Old Tongue like it does in EotW...hang on. Old Blood is the most likely answer.

 

What other two rivers folk do this though? I didn't see any, but I could have missed it (and if I did I will concede the point). Otherwise, I don't think the old blood is the most likely explanation, but just a possible one. I think the most likely explanation is Mat being special.

[Owners.Inc]

First I just read a part where Rand kills 11 random people for no apparent reason. They just show up and he kills them all, no real explanation. I think one is hinted at being a Gray Man, but he only notices him after he's killed everyone. After that he makes their dead bodies kneel to him. Really. That's some crazy paranoid stuff right there. The whole book he seems crazier and more paranoid than any other book except maybe really late in the series. Anyway, didn't this bother anyone?

 

Yes, it does. It sort of freaked me out the first time - I was like, is he gonna go over? It still kind of puzzles me, but I think the most likely explanation is that RJ had decided earlier how insane Rand was to be at that point in time, but as the series stretched, he had to revise his estimates. As such, he seems much more sane in WH and LoC than in TPOD, and more sane in TSR than in TDR.

 

I like Faile. At least in this part of the series. I remember not really disliking her until the kidnapping. Anyone else feel the same.

[\quote]

 

Sorry, but no. My only reaction was 'Great, ANOTHER know-it-all who's gonna boss the lads around'. Just when we thought we were shot of Egwene, Nynaeve and Eylane.

 

Regarding Mat and his memories. It has always seemed strikingly obvious to me that he was one of the heroes that the wheel spins out time and time again. He yells out in old tongue in the first book, before even the dagger, Aginor recognizes him, I think some of the heroes when he blew the horn did too. I just mention it because some people seem to think he got the memories from the Aelfinn/Eelfinn but when he's getting healed he's ordering soldiers, and later when he wakes up he remembers a battle. So he's the Gambling General Reborn or something like that.

 

This has been mentioned in another thread before, but I'm not sure how you think its strikingly obvious. Unless you mean it in a RJ-'intuitively obvious'-sense (which would mean its possibly the most confusing issue in the world). But the idea has been bandied about, and like Mr.Ares has said there's no evidence for, and good degree of circumstantial evidence against. There's also the general idea that Mat and Perrin become heroes after TG. I wouldn't mind them being heroes, but I think I'd object to them being made heroes, unless it was written into the story very fluently.

 

 

I'm annoyed at everyone's ability to pick everything up so quickly. Rand spent like a month training with Lan (who tells him it'd take 5 years to make him worthy of his sword) and is suddenly a blademaster, though that was tGH. Perrin takes on 12 whitecloaks with Gaul I think it is. I could believe Gaul could hold his own, but he can't take on all 12 at once. Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne are all Accepted even though they spent as much time outside the tower as in. What the hell have the learned in that time. Everyone else apparently takes years, but no, the others just know how to use the OP so good after a few months. I think they were only in the tower something like 5 months so far, come to think of it, that's all they were in it in the whole series. 5 months of training, oh, ok, you can go be an Aes Sedai now, good for you. It's like if I went to college and became a full fledged engineer after taking a Statics, Physics, and Calculus course.

 

Don't even get me started on Egwene the immaculate Amyrlin

 

 

 

I wish I could graduate with only 3 courses. Then I could retire 3 years earlier. Aren't you forgetting someone though? Mor and SS were both considered geniuses prior to the arrival of the supergirls. So its not just them. As for channelling, its been explained satisfactorily, I think. As for the sword fighting, remember that Rand's victory over Turak invloved a good deal of luck and Pattern twisting. Even the men he fights and kills on his way to Tear are hardly going to be blademaster level

[Mr Ares]

What other two rivers folk do this though?

We are told that people with the Old Blood occasionally give voice to Old Tongue phrases, and Egwene says she almost understood what Mat said when he used Manetheren's battle cry before they went into SL.