The Thread Previously Known As (Something Else) (Chapter 1 spoiler)

[Ziggdiezan]

if it is a Sa'angrel maby Rand knows it because the people behind the doorway in tear said you must have this to win the last battle. cause Rand asked how will i win the last battle of something like that. then they give the west and east as one speal.

 

[Razor]

From the other thread about the first chapter...

 

Foreshadowing that the Dragon would carry Justice

 

And men cried out to the Creator, praying, O Light of the Heavens, Light of the World, let the Promised One be born of the mountain, according to the Prophecies, as he was in Ages past and will be in Ages to come. Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs. Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.

 

 

    from Charal Drianaan te Calamon, The Cycle of the Dragon, Author unknown, the Fourth Age

 

And Galahad posted an argument that Justice is not a great sword, but a one handedc blade as follows:

 

I believe there is evidence to support Justice being a one-handed sword.

 

This is the scene in The Great Hunt where Rand meets Hawkwing:

 

He knew the man who rode at their head, too. Tall and hook-nosed, with dark, deep-set eyes, his great sword Justice at his side. Artur Hawkwing.

 

The Great Hunt, Chapter 47

 

Notice my emphasis. If Hawkwing's sword was truly a greatsword in any literal sense, it would seem to make more sense for him to wear it strapped across his back, rather than at his side. Otherwise it would be extremely cumbersome to carry and difficult to withdraw. Also, it would be impossible to withdraw with both hands because the hand on the same side as the sword wouldn't be able to extend far enough.

 

Secondly, I'd like to point out another reference to Justice, this one also coming from The Great Hunt, Chapter 47.

 

Justice shone like a mirror in Artur Hawkwing's gauntleted fist.

 

Here we have an instance where Hawkwing is actually holding his sword in one hand. Admittedly even were Justice a greatsword this would not be impossible (or improbably done, for that matter), but I would venture to say that it would certainly be difficult to hold and balance in one hand.

 

Thirdly, in The Shadow Rising, Chapter 9 we see the "legendary sword Justice," as opposed to the "legendary great sword Justice." The implication, then, is that the sword is not a greatsword.

 

 

 

Sounds likley it is justice.

 

Rnd recgnized it because he saw HAwkwing with the heroes of the horn.  He was surprised LTT did not because he rode previously with LTT, although they never rode together since the eye of the world was sealed up so who knows?

[RAMb0211]

There's only one problem though. It says the sword has dragons on the scabbard, so unless Hawkwing just happened to het hold of LTT's sword then it's not Justice.

[CUBAREY]

There's only one problem though. It says the sword has dragons on the scabbard, so unless Hawkwing just happened to het hold of LTT's sword then it's not Justice.

 

Why? We know that LTT is "the Dragon" and Rand the "Dragon Reborn" but Arthur Hawkwings Sir name also bespeaks of dragons, might not a man as prideful as Arthur Hawkwing imitate the greatest hero of ages to the extent of using dragons to decorate his sword?

[dantes_inferno]

What page number is the thing from the shadow rising on? i skimmed over the chapter and didnt see it

 

im not sold on it being hawkwings sword yet, but some good points were raised about Justice actually being a one-handed sword. I still think it may not really belong to one person, maybe like people, the wheel will spin out weapons and things for its heroes to use, maybe the sword WAS LTT's, when he died, it was lost, then maybe hawkwing happened to find it and recognize it for what it was?

[Shard]

There's only one problem though. It says the sword has dragons on the scabbard, so unless Hawkwing just happened to het hold of LTT's sword then it's not Justice.

 

Why? We know that LTT is "the Dragon" and Rand the "Dragon Reborn" but Arthur Hawkwings Sir name also bespeaks of dragons, might not a man as prideful as Arthur Hawkwing imitate the greatest hero of ages to the extent of using dragons to decorate his sword?

 

A Hero that fills people with as much dread as the Forsaken themselves and called Kinslayer? I think not.

[Copperfield]

Shard you have a point. If the scabbard was found the way it is now, I don't believe it would be Justice. No one would proudly wear any ornamentaion with "Kinslayers" symbol on it. I feel that point destroys any arguement about it being Justice.

[Davian93]

Shard you have a point. If the scabbard was found the way it is now, I don't believe it would be Justice. No one would proudly wear any ornamentaion with "Kinslayers" symbol on it. I feel that point destroys any arguement about it being Justice.

 

Along that line of reasoning, where does that lead you?  What are the other options?

[CUBAREY]

A Hero that fills people with as much dread as the Forsaken themselves and called Kinslayer? I think not.

 

Actually we know that people in Rand's time view LTT  with as much dread as the Foresaken how those in Hawkwings time saw LTT is not exactly clear. Moreover, since Hawking was himself viewed in a very mixed light by his contemporaries he might not necessarily shide away from a comparison. After all the one thing we know of Hawkwing was that he had ver little doubt about his own value and place in society, whether he would have cared what others thought about comparing himself metaphorically with LTT is unknown.

[Copperfield]

Shard you have a point. If the scabbard was found the way it is now, I don't believe it would be Justice. No one would proudly wear any ornamentaion with "Kinslayers" symbol on it. I feel that point destroys any arguement about it being Justice.

 

Along that line of reasoning, where does that lead you?  What are the other options?

 

I feel it must be a past false dragons sword.

[Davian93]

Okay, a false dragon.

 

Why would Rand recognize it from his memories?

 

Some have made it out that it could be Guaire Amalasian's sword as Guaire was from Arad Doman (same area at least as the country was different then). 

 

But why would Rand recognize it?  There is also the issue that Guaire didn't use the Dragon as his symbol.  He used a version of the Banner of Light but with a blue background, not the red that Rand favors. 

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative with you...I'm just trying to lay out what we know and don't know to come up with an idea.

 

The Dragon lacquer weakens the case for Justice but does not strengthen a case for a False Dragon's sword specifically.

 

We know that Rand recognizes it from his own memories.

We know that he is uncomfortable with sharing WHY he knows it even with Min.

Its likely a one handed sword along the lines of a katana.

Its not likely to be an angrael/sa'angrael as Rand thinks going for his blade is pointless.

 

Where does that leave us?

[Copperfield]

I feel it is because of his link with Moridin. If Ishy had any influence on past false dragons then his memory is showing rand through there link. Rand doesnt want Min to know because they already suspect him being insane from Semi's statements.

 

I'm also not tryin to be argumentative, just enjoyin a nice debate.  :)

[Davian93]

I feel it is because of his link with Moridin. If Ishy had any influence on past false dragons then his memory is showing rand through there link. Rand doesnt want Min to know because they already suspect him being insane from Semi's statements.

 

I'm also not tryin to be argumentative, just enjoyin a nice debate.  :)

 

That something I wonder as well.  Telling them he got something from LTT is one thing.  Trying to explain the whole Ishy Balefire connection would be rather difficult.  Besides, would he even realize where the memory comes from?  At least with the LTT memories, he has a genuine explanation being the Dragon Reborn.  With Ishy's memories, if they are indeed crossing over, how does his subconscious deal with that?

[Copperfield]

You got me there. I have no way to explain the whole process of recalling memories and whose mind they come from; his own, LTT, or Ishy.

 

One more idea. Asmodean gave the other Aiel his dragons.(cant recall his name right now) Even if Guaire Amalasian's standard was different I feel Ishy would have supplied the blade to make the Dragon imagery deeper.

[Davian93]

You got me there. I have no way to explain the whole process of recalling memories and whose mind they come from; his own, LTT, or Ishy.

 

One more idea. Asmodean gave the other Aiel his dragons.(cant recall his name right now) Even if Guaire Amalasian's standard was different I feel Ishy would have supplied the blade to make the Dragon imagery deeper.

 

 

That's a good point.  If it were during one of Ishy's spinouts from the DO's prison, then he very well could have supplied the impetus for the various false dragons throughout the 3rd age.  We know he was active at some point during Hawkwing's reign.  Whether he was spun out after Hawkwing had already consolidated his empire or during Amalasian's period is unknown.  It would be interesting to know if he was also around for Stonebow, Davian and Raolin Darksbane as well. 

 

As for the memories, I am of the minority belief that the entire LTT persona is a creation of Rand's subconscious to deal with the memories he's getting from his previous life.  The memories are completely real but the actual personality and "voice" are Rand's way of dealing with both the memories and his emotional issues.  Like I said, its a minority view but there is evidence for the theory.

 

Memories from Moridin are a different story.  We know that Rand can sense Ishy's presence from time to time but we don't know the extent of this connection.  It is logical to think that if they can sense each other that other things are crossing that link.  Its also possible that Rand recognized the sword from a book he read as he did quite a bit of reading on False Dragons when he was figuring out what to do in Tear during TSR.  One of those books could have had a description (or even a drawing) of the sword/scabbard in question.

[Copperfield]

Another question whose answer may help us put the pieces together. Who gave it to Rand as a gift? Was it the Domani? Bashere and his men? Or someone from the number of places he has been hiding out at these past few weeks?

[richnewton82]

.

[Davian93]

Up until this point we have exactly zero evidence that Rand and Moridin share memories.

 

The idea that the sword is a false dragon's and Rand has the memory from Ishmael is downright silly.

 

Its far-fetched, not silly.  There is a legitimate connection between the two of them.  To dismiss it off-hand like that is a bit close-minded.

 

Another question whose answer may help us put the pieces together. Who gave it to Rand as a gift? Was it the Domani? Bashere and his men? Or someone from the number of places he has been hiding out at these past few weeks?

 

I would guess the Domani but there is no proof or evidence that suggests anyone specifically.

[jemron]

@ copperfield.  Agreed.  I bet we learn those details (possibly even the big answer of what the sword actually is) when the prologue comes out in 10 days.

 

@ richnewton82.  I don't think it is silly, but I do think it is unlikely.  I'm still of the opinion that Rand saw it either:

(1) In Bayle Domon's ship, or (2) With Artur Hawkwing at the end of TGH.  I suppose the Aelfin (or Eelfin, whichever) could have actually shown it to him in a vision or something, but this is unlikely, methinks.

[richnewton82]

.

 

[Davian93]

"Its far-fetched, not silly.  There is a legitimate connection between the two of them.  To dismiss it off-hand like that is a bit close-minded."

 

 

In 11 books we have seen zero evidence that Rand and Moridin share memories. All we know is that when either tries to grasp the source, they see an image of the other's face. People take that and somehow link it to this sword and say its a false dragons........... come on people... jeeeeeeeeze.

 

 

 

Exactly, there is a link between the two.  Its called speculation.  Saying "in 11 books" is disingenious as the link has only been around since the very end of Book 7.  It has only manifested itself in the last couple books.  Thus, with very limited POVs concerning it, we really have no idea what the extent of that link is.

[richnewton82]

.

[Luckers]

Hey guys, if your wondering at the name change, I got a PM angry at the fact that they now knew that there was a controversy surrounding a sword, which I suppose is fair enough.

 

So Welcome to the Thread Previously Known As "The Sword".

 

Prince has nothing on me.

 

 

[Davian93]

^ lol so a link = shared memories?

 

sorry but that's not speculation its crackpot.

 

So let me just summarize this so called theory...

 

 

1. Rand and Moridin cross streams of Balefire.

2. Rand and Moridin both experience some kind of dizziness when using the One Power after. They also see a vague impression of the other's face.

3. 4 books later Rand suddenly has shared memories with Ishmael.

4. While spanning thousands of years of Ishmael's existence and possibly answering such questions as "Why did the 100 Companion's attempt to seal the Dark One fail?" Instead Rand saw Ishmael lead Guire Amalsalon to become a False Dragon and also give him the sword. Something which we have zero evidence for ever having occurred. Hell, we don't even know that he HAD a sword. We don't even know if Ishmael even propped him up as a False Dragon. Moridin is a compulsive liar afterall.

 

Yeah ok. I believe it was lepperchauns.

 

 

I'm not advocating it but I refuse to eliminate it as there is definitely a very solid connection between Moridin and Rand.  A connection that will likely play a major part in any solution that wins the Last Battle.  Perhaps there is more than a Face when either seizes the Source.  We don't know simply because there haven't been many Rand POVs in the last 4 books and Rand very rarely holds the OP anymore as a result of channeling sickness.

 

Rand's memories from LTT didn't just show up all at once either, it was a gradual thing.  So I won't discount that this connection could grow either.

 

The bottom line is we have no idea why or how Rand got this sword and we have basically no information on which to speculate.  Other than thinking its Justice (my opinion on it), what else would you suggest we speculate on for the next 10 days (minimum) or 6 weeks (more likely)?

[RAMb0211]

It seems to me like everyone is reading into this too much, and it's simply LTT's sword. That's the most obvious answer and it's the one i'm sticking with for now. Until we know more, anything else is just wild speculation.