Speculation about Rand and the aftermath of the Last Battle

[dholm]

I recently got hold of the complete Wheel of Time series as audiobooks, and I was listening to the Great Hunt when something Elayne says caught my attention.

 

Elayne shook her head. “Not like Min. She sees—auras—around people. And images.”

“Not all the time,” Min put in. “Not around everybody.”

“And she can read things about you from them, though I’m not sure she always tells the truth. She said I’d have to share my husband with two other women, and I’d never put up with that. She just laughs, and says it was never her idea of how to run things, either. But she said I would be a queen before she knew who I was; she said she saw a crown, and it was the Rose Crown of Andor.”

 

This is from when Elayne is introducing Min to Egwene. Did you notice what I meant?

 

She said I’d have to share my husband with two other women, and I’d never put up with that.

Min said "husband", apparently. Unless Elayne and Rand marry just before Tarmon Gai'don, which I don't really see happening, their marriage must happen afterwards. It is not hard evidence -- Elayne could have misunderstood Min, for instance -- but it is at least a hint.

 

Something else caught my attention too. In The Fires of Heaven, Rand is fighting Rahvin in Tel'aran'rhiod, when he suddenly starts becoming mist.

 

He felt odd. Insubstantial. He raised his arm, and stared. He could see the garden through coatsleeve and arm as through a mist. A mist that was thinning. When he glanced down, he could see the walk’s paving stones through himself.

No! It was not his thought. An image began to coalesce. A tall, dark-eyed man with a worry-creased face and more white in his hair than brown. I am Lews Ther—

I am Rand al’Thor, Rand broke in. He did not know what was happening, but the faint Dragon was beginning to fade from the misty arm held in front of his face. The arm began to look darker, the fingers on his hand longer. I am me. That echoed in the Void. I am Rand al’Thor.

He fought to picture himself in his own mind, struggled to make the image of what he saw in the mirror every day shaving, what he saw in a stand-mirror dressing. It was a frantic fight. He had never really looked at himself. The two images waxed and waned, the older dark-eyed man and the younger with blue-gray eyes. Slowly the younger image firmed, the older faded. Slowly his arm grew more solid. His arm, with the Dragon twined around it and the heron branded into his palm. There had been times he hated those marks, but now, even enclosed within the emotionless Void, he almost grinned to see them.

Not unusual, right? It can happen in Tel'aran'rhiod, and you can change yourself there if you wish. Nynaeve and Siuan use it to disguise themselves in Tel'aran'rhiod all the time, right?

 

But Rand is there in the flesh. What would happen if he changed his perception of himself -- say, to include two hands rather than one and erase a certain two pesky wounds in his side, or a couple brands on his palms, or the dragons from his arms, or any other number of things -- and left Tel'aran'rhiod through a gateway? Could he do other things? Make himself as tall as an Ogier? Change into an actual dragon?

 

This might be why the Aiel say that going to Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh causes you to lose your humanity.

 

We've seen something similar before. In Winter's Heart, Slayer changes from Isam to Luc as he is leaving Tel'aran'rhiod:

Stopping beside the bed, he carefully unsheathed the two poisoned daggers and stepped out of the Unseen World into the waking. As he did, he became Luc. It seemed appropriate.

Just a bit later, he is reminiscing about killing Amico and Joiya in the Stone of Tear.

That had been Isam, not him, but the memories were none the less prized for that. Neither of them got to kill an Aes Sedai very often.

So apparently Slayer can change between Luc and Isam at will. It would make sense if this is because of Tel'aran'rhiod, and since he is there in the flesh, he can take it with him. Wounds taken in Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh is the same, after all.

 

What do you think? Is it totally loco?

[Majsju]

Regarding the first one, it seems that Elayne has misunderstood Min, considering later comments we see her make. Like in WH (A Lily In Winter), where we see her wonder which one of them Rand will actually marry.

 

As for Rand trying to fix himself in T'A'R, look at Egwenes journey from Cairhien to Salidar. It does not matter if you are there in a dream or in the flesh, you can not bring anything physical out of there, like extra bodyparts. And changes of a physical nature, like Egwene making her wounds go away, reverts back to normal once you step back into the real world.

 

Slayer is a different case, he has been given a number of abilities that normal people does not possess. Like being able to switch between his two personalities.

[dholm]

Hmm, true. I had forgotten about Egwene fixing her switching. But she intended it only as temporary; perhaps that has an effect?

[Majsju]

Well, no.

 

Come on, it would be top 5 of Lamest Things In Fantasy Ever. Damaged? No problem, just jump into T'a'r, and ge yourself all fixed up. Heck, grow an exta pair of arms while you are at it, like that bloke in Star wars!

 

RJ would never do something like that. He has created a story where bad things actually can happen to the main characters.

[Arkelias]

Majsju, this isn't the first time I've detected a note of hostility from you.  It may not be the way RJ intended it, but the question is valid.  Nor would allowing wounds to be healed in T'A'R be lame in my opinion.

 

We've already been told that when you go physically into T'A'R you lose a piece of yourself.  More than one character, especially the wise ones, have belabored how evil it is.

 

What if you can heal yourself there, but leave a part of your soul behind?  That could make for a very interesting story, and hardly qualifies as lame IMO.  You're welcome to your opinion, but please don't slam others for having theirs.

[Luckers]

A few points--one, changes made in TAR do not translate to the real world. Of the options you list Egwene states this, Rand was reacting to changes in TAR, and like Moghedian's threat to make Nynaeve a horse it would have been applicable only in TAR, and Slayer does not change himself in TAR, he changes himself in the process of stepping into, or out of, TAR.

[dholm]

Egwene could be wrong. Nynaeve wasn't there in the flesh. As for Slayer, can you prove that he doesn't change just before he leaves Tel'aran'rhiod?

[dholm]

Well, no.

 

Come on, it would be top 5 of Lamest Things In Fantasy Ever. Damaged? No problem, just jump into T'a'r, and ge yourself all fixed up. Heck, grow an exta pair of arms while you are at it, like that bloke in Star wars!

 

RJ would never do something like that. He has created a story where bad things actually can happen to the main characters.

 

No one said it would be free, though I agree that it would be a little too easy. But frankly, I think the "body swap" theory is even more lame.

[mb]

The wedding we do not know if it will be before or after Tarmon Gaidon.

Min's Viewing is not the only thing that tells of it; Aviendha's trip through Rhuidean's 3 Arches also tells it (trip done in Shadow Rising, Aviendha telling in Crossroads of Twilight Chapter 10).

I think there might be enough time for it to happen before Tarmon Gaidon.  Though if it does not happen before Tarmon Gaidon, Rand would probably be resurrected (since he is prophesied to die during Tarmon Gaidon).

 

It seems unlikely that Rand's wounds would heal before Tarmon Gaidon since the best Healers have tried to Heal them multiple times.

 

[Luckers]

Egwene could be wrong. Nynaeve wasn't there in the flesh. As for Slayer, can you prove that he doesn't change just before he leaves Tel'aran'rhiod?

 

Egwene was not wrong. Functionally she proved as much when she stepped unthinkly out of the dreams and the healing she had made to her welts disapeared.

 

As for Slayer, in the books it states that, "...he carefully unsheathed the two poisoned daggers and stepped out of the Unseen World into the waking. As he did, he became Luc. It seemed appropriate"

 

So, process of stepping from, not prior to. In addition to this RJ also commented on this issue directly, but I can't find it right now--I'm still recompiling my quotes following the fall of wotmania.

[Hybrid]

I've got a couple of questions relating to dreams.

 

In TEOTW, Rand gets those thorns in his palms when he dreams about Ishamael.  Is that because it is his dream?  Or is this an inconsistency with TAR?

 

In TDR, Perrin is definitely in the wolf dream and probably in TAR when he runs into the foreign lord (Tairen) who gets his skin ripped off by the shadows.  When Perrin wakes up, he has the lord's blood on him.  What's the deal with this?

[Luckers]

In TEOTW, Rand gets those thorns in his palms when he dreams about Ishamael.  Is that because it is his dream?  Or is this an inconsistency with TAR?

 

He actually has the thorns? Are you sure you arn't confusing this with Nynaeve's trip through the Rings? I can't remember the quote to which you are referring, but if it is as you state then I would say it was an inconsistancy.

 

I do remember the rats with the broken backs, but that makes sense given rats enter TAR, like all wild animals, and thus can be killed so that it manifests in the real world.

 

In TDR, Perrin is definitely in the wolf dream and probably in TAR when he runs into the foreign lord (Tairen) who gets his skin ripped off by the shadows.  When Perrin wakes up, he has the lord's blood on him.  What's the deal with this?

 

Inconsistancy. It's frequent in that book--for instance how does Rand enter the dream yet assert himself? Rand is no dreamwalker, and those brought into the dream are subject to the will of the bringer, so how does he do so. And were it in his dreams, how did Perrin gain access. He has no access to the place between. Nor did either his nor Egwene's descriptions involve that place.

[moroten]

Another point about Min viewing Rand as a future husband is only Min's interpretation of her visions. In the following novels Min continiously states that she doesnt know wether Rand will return the love or not, only that she is in love with him. If she foresaw a possible wedding Rand would most likely love them. Sure he could marry them without loving them, but I just dont see that happening. I think it is more likely a poor choice of words by Min.

[Matrim DeLaneous]

I've got a couple of questions relating to dreams.

 

In TEOTW, Rand gets those thorns in his palms when he dreams about Ishamael.  Is that because it is his dream?  Or is this an inconsistency with TAR?

It does in fact come from Nynaeve's Accepted test.  Ref TGH, ch 23 The Testing.  During her 3rd pass through the What Will Be ring, she's in Malier, married to Lan with 3 kids.  She misses her chance at the silver arch.  She then finds the source by focusing on a thorn bush and an arch reappears.  After she exits, Sheriam shows some surprise at the thorns and heals them.

[Hybrid]

I'll check when I get home tonight, but I swear that somewhere in TEOTW, Rand wakes up and pulls a thorn out of his hand.  It then disappears, Moiraine sees the blood, says something like "Our time grows short" and heals him.

[Kadere]

Rand has pricks his finger on a thorn in TEotW while traveling to Whitebridge and it's still bleeding when he wakes up, and later in The Queen's Blessing before they head to the Waygate he has a splinter from the table in Ishy's room through his palm. Those are chapters 24 and 43. But it's all the inconsistent threat of T'A'R. Sometimes cuts and events are still real when you wake and sometimes they aren't.

[Hybrid]

Thanks, Kadere, I was confusing those two into the same incident in my mind.  The splinter is what I was talking about when I mentioned that he removed something from his hand and it disappeared.

[dholm]

Egwene could be wrong. Nynaeve wasn't there in the flesh. As for Slayer, can you prove that he doesn't change just before he leaves Tel'aran'rhiod?

 

Egwene was not wrong. Functionally she proved as much when she stepped unthinkly out of the dreams and the healing she had made to her welts disapeared.

She never intended them to be permanent. As I said before, that could have had an effect. It does not conclusively prove her correct.

 

As for Slayer, in the books it states that, "...he carefully unsheathed the two poisoned daggers and stepped out of the Unseen World into the waking. As he did, he became Luc. It seemed appropriate"

 

So, process of stepping from, not prior to. In addition to this RJ also commented on this issue directly, but I can't find it right now--I'm still recompiling my quotes following the fall of wotmania.

I'm aware of the wording, but unless there's a third space where he is after leaving Tel'aran'rhiod and entering the real world, it should be instantaneous, and if so, there's no reason the switch cannot happen just before he steps out of the dream.

 

I'd love to see the RJ quote.

[draconian]

As for Rand trying to fix himself in T'A'R, look at Egwenes journey from Cairhien to Salidar. It does not matter if you are there in a dream or in the flesh, you can not bring anything physical out of there, like extra bodyparts. And changes of a physical nature, like Egwene making her wounds go away, reverts back to normal once you step back into the real world.

every1 is ignoring the big event that decides the issue

Birgitte Silverbow's soul was made flesh and removed from T'A'R as was her silver arrow real with her

we know she wasnt there in the flesh to begin with but a soul awiting the HoV's call

maybe rand or egwene could use rand's soul as a blueprint to restore his hand as Birgitte Silverbow  body was restore from her soul

 

i think those wounds in his side likely go his soul and cant be restored ezly or cutting away the infected area and healing the flesh would  get rid of those wounds

 

wounds give in the dream world heal poorly so imo it makes sense its the result of dmg to the soul like stilling isnt a physicial wound but far deeper

[Blackhoof]

 

Egwene was not wrong. Functionally she proved as much when she stepped unthinkly out of the dreams and the healing she had made to her welts disapeared.

She never intended them to be permanent. As I said before, that could have had an effect. It does not conclusively prove her correct.

maybe it is because slayer was there in the flesh, and egwene wasn't.

[dholm]

No; we're speaking of the one time Egwene has been in Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh, when she was summoned to Salidar.

[Blackhoof]

ohhhhh.... sorry.

[pxnsolid]

More than one character, especially the wise ones, have belabored how evil it is.

 

from tSR chapter 23 pg. 389 (paperback)

 

Bair states " It is said there were those who could enter the dream in the flesh, and no longer be in this world at all. This is an evil thing, for they did evil;it must never be attempted, even if you believe it possible for you, for each time you will lose some part of what makes you human. "

 

Now I'm not commenting on the lose some part of yourself idea, they have no proof one way or another, they haven't done it therefore don't know. But its a blanket statement that you will be evil for doing this, because evil people do it. Evil people take showers, so do I, I must be evil. /shrug strikes me a rhetoric more then definitive.