LOC: Matters of Toh

[SnakeAes]

So I'm on my 2nd read-through, and I came across this chapter in which Aviendha is worried about not being able to meet her toh. She states that she has toh toward Elayne (from sleeping with Rand), and she has toh toward Rand (presumably because she believes he stopped Lanfear from killing her). The book goes on to say, "Killing Rand al'Thor would meet on toh, killing herself the second."

 

I can see how killing herself could be construed as making up for failing in her promise to Elayne (she later offers to let Elayne kill her herself), but I don't see how killing Rand would meet her toh toward him.

 

I believe it's possible that killing Rand would meet her toh to Elayne. After all, Rand can be said to have failed Elayne just as much as Aviendha did (at least in Elayne's eyes). A stretch, I know, but she is Aiel. But then would killing herself meet her toh toward Rand?

 

Basically my question is, how does killing Rand help meet her toh to anyone?

[OptimusPrime]

It doesnt, she is being too hard on herself.

[Caedn of the Taardad]

Perhaps she still blames Rand a bit for her fate seen in the Rings, yet still feels guilt for failing to avoide it.  Or maybe killing him would simply simplify things, such as killing or destroying the problem itself instead of confronting it...  I'll have to think on this now, no sleep tonight...

[DukeBob]

It is my belief that Aviendha has Toh to Rand for outright lying to him. I forget the exact quote but basically she tells Rand that she hates him more than anyone else. IIRC it was explained by the wise ones that toh is greater if it is an outright lie verses simply stretch the truth or being deceptive. I will have to look for the quote.

 

It is similar to why Egwene had to meet her Toh with the wise ones as she was leaving for Salidar.

[dholm]

That toh has already been met -- Egwene sees Aviendha has been strapped and is told by one of the Wise Ones (Bair, I think?) that it was for lying.

[DukeBob]

That toh has already been met -- Egwene sees Aviendha has been strapped and is told by one of the Wise Ones (Bair, I think?) that it was for lying.

You are right, I had forgotten about that.

[csarmi]

I was thinking about this too, but I couldn't figure it out. Anyone?

 

On a related note: do we KNOW that Aviendha is not a darkfriend?

[dholm]

Uh, yes. We have her point-of-view. Very much so.

[csarmi]

Yes, we do have her PoV's, several of them, but I don't remember any of them strictly proving so.

[Luckers]

We have her PoV when she is thinking about the 'shadowsouled'.

 

She no Darkfriend.

[Manjunathan]

That toh has already been met -- Egwene sees Aviendha has been strapped and is told by one of the Wise Ones (Bair, I think?) that it was for lying.

You are right, I had forgotten about that.

She lied to Rand. So her toh is towards  him. How will wise ones switching her meet that? She should have let Rand switch her.

[Luckers]

It's apparently acceptable to ask a Wise One to help meet toh unrelated to the Wise Ones. The Wise One's find this somewhat stupid, but they do it.

[Blackhoof]

it would be unlikely that Aviendha is a Darkfriend, notice how all revealed Darkfriends didn't have povs' until they were revealed(usually in their first pov), or else not at all? That is why, you cant have the pov of a DF without him/her revealing herself, or thinking particularly DF thoughts (usually).

[Manjunathan]

it would be unlikely that Aviendha is a Darkfriend, notice how all revealed Darkfriends didn't have povs' until they were revealed(usually in their first pov), or else not at all? That is why, you cant have the pov of a DF without him/her revealing herself, or thinking particularly DF thoughts (usually).

Exception: Verin

[Blackhoof]

what are you talking about???  ???  ???

[Manjunathan]

We get many PoV's from Verin. And there is a chance of her being a DF (she hasn't revealed herself).

[Mr Ares]

We get many PoV's from Verin. And there is a chance of her being a DF (she hasn't revealed herself).

She's still bound to the Three Oaths, and is therefore not BA. We see this in her pov in PoD Prologue.

[Blackhoof]

See, I was right; name one revealed (to us) Darkfriend that has had a pov prior to exposure (to us)

[Manjunathan]

Well I suppose there are none.

[Mr Ares]

See, I was right; name one revealed (to us) Darkfriend that has had a pov prior to exposure (to us)

Elza Penfell. I believe she is revealed in her second pov.

[dholm]

Eh. Elza is revealed in the chapter she has her first POV, even if it is in the second. I don't really think she's a good example.

[Mashiara Sedai]

Getting back on topic... :)

 

Is Aviendha's toh that she ran from Rand and was caught?  If she had run harder or fled faster then Rand would not have caught her. She blames herself for it and therefore thinks she has toh to Rand because she was too weak.

 

I still don't see how killing Rand would help that...

 

Maybe killing Rand would meet the toh to Elayne and killing herself would meet the toh to Rand.

 

~Mashiara

[Blackhoof]

confusing.... i think the whole thing is silly.  :)

[Mr Ares]

Eh. Elza is revealed in the chapter she has her first POV, even if it is in the second. I don't really think she's a good example.

It might not be a brillaint example, but it is trechnically true that we had a pov from her prior to her being revealed as a Darkfriend in her second.

[Blackhoof]

Whats the gist of her first pov? does she say anything evil, mean, or otherwise darkfriendish? Any implication? Any at all?  :-\