The Eye of the World, rise again

[Water Spirit]

I know it was already discussed for many times, but I have some curious (I think  :D) ideas about the Eye. I would like to hear what do you think about it.

 

The question that had been bugging me for quite a while: Why the "Eye of the World" was named so? What meaning does it have? Other OP stuff have untranslated names (Callandor, Choedan Cal). So why was the name of the Eye told us in English? Then suddenly I had the following idea:

 

Apple of one's eye – idiom, meaning

"Special, favorite, beloved person or thing, as in The youngest was the apple of his father's eye. This term, which rests on the ancients' idea that the eye's pupil is apple-shaped and that eyes are particularly precious, appears in the Bible (Deuteronomy 32:10). [Early 1600s]"

 

This idiom exists in many languages (ex. English, German, Russian). So is this what RJ was trying to tell us? The things that were in pupil… center of tEotW must have been guarded carefully for the sake of the world. And so they were, by pure concentrated Saidin, physically and energetically.

 

Physically: it dissolves anything that gets into the pool. Energetically: we know that the taint dos not get mixed with Saidin. It "swims on top of it" as oil holds on the surface of water (explained by Moiraine). So Saidin must have some taint repelling property. A mass of clean Saidin, surrounding treasures at the center of the Eye repel the taint while allowing flows of clean Saidin to be drawn by the Seal from the True Source. The Eye was a giant taint filter.

 

Now why would the Seal draw on Saidin you may wonder? As I theorize, the bore was shielded by LTT and companions in some way using some weird kind of shield of Spirit. Yes, yes, the likes of which is used on channellers to stop them from touching the power. And imho it should follow the rules of shielding. Namely, the shield should be held up by channellers "live", not tied off, or it could be unraveled with time. And we do not want the DO to unravel the shield, do we? So, all of the seals are drawing Saidin from TS and channeling it into the bore shield.

 

As we know from Moirain's PoV the Seals were in White Tower until the trolloc wars. So party that created the Eye should have had all of them. Then why did they protect only one seal in this fashion? I suppose that the one whole Eye could protect flawlessly only one seal. To protect all they needed to sacrifice 700 channelers… The shield held by one channeller is still a shield, and is still shielding  :) I guess it must be the same with the Seal. One seal intact until Tarmon Gai'don is better than nothing. In fact, the Seal in the Eye was the only solid seal of them all, others were softened. I guess it speaks in favor of the fact that it wasn't touched by the taint.

 

So why didn't it hold till Tarmon Gai'don? Or rephrasing this question: why was Ishamael so set upon blinding tEotW in the first book? Because he knew that the Eye is the only true obstacle to DO getting free. He had set "traps" by telling anyone who would listen that he was going to blind the Eye. And Moiraine thought it was the will of the Wheel. So she was manipulated by Ishy into blinding the Eye herself. It wasn't important who would have done it, how or why. Just that the Eye must become blind, aka empty. After that the Seal have become unprotected and Ishamael didn't have to worry about getting all of the Seals as he knows they all would break sooner or later corrupted by the taint.

 

 

 

[mb]

Why was the Eye of the World called so?  I think because it was/is eye-like.

 

The seals were in White Tower until Trolloc Wars?  No passage tells so.

 

The Eye was being made during the Breaking.  Starting on the Tower was 98 AB and finished at 202 AB.

And Trollocs (and the other shadowspawn) I take were not anywhere near the Tower.

 

It seems more likely that the Seals were placed near the places they were found at.

 

[The Fisher King]

I think this is a very interesting topic to look back on.

 

Has anyone else ever noticed that after the first book (except maybe in early book 2) neither The Eye Of The World or The Green Man are ever mentioned again...so different from every other significant thing in the series is which is repeatedly repeated, to be reduntantly reduntant.

 

Never is there a better example of how originally the series was meant to be one book (possibly a trilogy) early on than some of the things that happened in book 1 that are just never referred to again.

 

Fish

[Majsju]

Why should theyt be referred to? The Eye is gone, Someshta is dead. The people who where there have a couple of far more important things to worry about than something that is gone.

 

This is something we see throughout the books. Noone thinks of the events in Falme, unless something brings it up in their minds. Same thing with the fall of the Stone, Rand and Mat going to Rhuidean, etc.

Past events are only brought up if the stiry needs them to be brought up.

 

And WOT was never planned to be a trilogy, and definitly not one single book. RJ envisioned 5-6 books pretty much from day one.

[Thorum]

And WOT was never planned to be a trilogy, and definitly not one single book. RJ envisioned 5-6 books pretty much from day one.

Which is only about a third of the true amount.

 

*Envisions Sanderson's 30-book epic  :o *

[The Fisher King]

Apologies - this was originally posted in the wrong place.

 

Majsju - I must say im a bit startled by a few of your statements. You have - for a long time - been one of the most accurate people here when it comes to facts about this series...So, maybe im misreading you on two points of yours that puzzle me. Perhaps im misreading you. If so, I apologize. Lets look at them:

 

""And WOT was never planned to be a trilogy, and definitly not one single book. RJ envisioned 5-6 books pretty much from day one.""

 

This is well-known lore at this point, and discussed many times on this very Forum. TEOTW was an attempt at a fantasy novel on James Rigney's part (though he had a long story in mind all along - even knowing the last sentence of the end of the last book from the earliest stages)

 

In describing his idea to old friend Tom Doherty, TD loved it so much that he signed RJ to a contract for a trilogy. AFTER, in its EARLIEST stages, the conception was for a Standalone). Once into the trilogy, RJ, saw a possibility of finishing in '5-6' books. This led to a contract with TOR for a second trilogy. Halfway through THESE books, he realized it wass still growing. At this point he began signing a seriess of one-book deals with Tom. He also began saying he could finish 'in one or two books' - he then, later, began refusing to guarantee anything, UNTIL KOD, when he PROMISED only one more book no matter what.

 

THAT is the background...

 

Now, as for the following statement:

 

"Why should theyt be referred to? The Eye is gone, Someshta is dead. The people who where there have a couple of far more important things to worry about than something that is gone."

 

LOL. The entire theme of the series is the continual re-emergence of the past as the wheel continues to spin back out significant elements of the past...and id certainly consider the events at The Eye to be 'significant' - now, if you mean that in a literary sense, there is no need for constant reminders, redundancy (and i don't mean in a bad way) is a trademark of Jordan's style - through the series constantly mentioning events from past books...

 

Fish

 

[mb]

Has anyone else ever noticed that after the first book (except maybe in early book 2) neither The Eye Of The World or The Green Man are ever mentioned again...

Actually the last mention of both are in Shadow Rising Chapter 26; though no mention in between.

 

[The Fisher King]

Thanks for the reference mb!

 

Fish

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JenniferL]

The Fisher King is correct in his knowledge of how many books were originally planned.

 

I don't have a reference for this (Bad FAQueen, I know), but I recall in one of the discussions of the Amyrlin's titles, that "no Amyrlin since the Trolloc Wars" has known where all the Seals were hidden. My guess is that the Seal was hidden in the Eye during the Breaking, and it was the record of where it was held that was lost. The other Seals seem to be found in completely random places (farmer's huts, the Panarch's Palace, etc.) which isn't surprising after 3000 years. If they were left in places were men could find them, they'd eventually get moved.

[The Fisher King]

Kathana - Ive enjoyed reading this site for many years. Its been a very nice diversion during some tough times. Great community and Forums.

 

Fish

[JenniferL]

Thanks! It's nice to hear things like that. =)

[Mr Ares]

This is well-known lore at this point, and discussed many times on this very Forum. TEOTW was an attempt at a fantasy novel on James Rigney's part (though he had a long story in mind all along - even knowing the last sentence of the end of the last book from the earliest stages)

 

In describing his idea to old friend Tom Doherty, TD loved it so much that he signed RJ to a contract for a trilogy. AFTER, in its EARLIEST stages, the conception was for a Standalone). Once into the trilogy, RJ, saw a possibility of finishing in '5-6' books. This led to a contract with TOR for a second trilogy. Halfway through THESE books, he realized it wass still growing. At this point he began signing a seriess of one-book deals with Tom. He also began saying he could finish 'in one or two books' - he then, later, began refusing to guarantee anything, UNTIL KOD, when he PROMISED only one more book no matter what.

 

THAT is the background...

I've heard a number of versions of the story, but never that one. I've heard he was originally signed for six books, that he didn't know how many it would be, that he thought he could bring it home in three, but that was before he'd finished writing the Eye of the World, that EotW and TGH were originally supposed to be the same book, and he split it because it was taking longer than expected, that when he signed he told Tom that he wasn't sure how many it would take, his one or two is more accurately an "at least three more". What seems clear is that he was never sure how long it would take, and was only ever making estimates from beginning till he confirmed one more book. Which turned into three, for reasons beyond his control.

[Water Spirit]

The Fisher King is correct in his knowledge of how many books were originally planned.

I second that.

 

Why was the Eye of the World called so?  I think because it was/is eye-like.

The form you mean? And why have they made it eye-like? For the love of sculpture?  :)

 

The seals were in White Tower until Trolloc Wars?  No passage tells so.

 

The Eye was being made during the Breaking.  Starting on the Tower was 98 AB and finished at 202 AB.

And Trollocs (and the other shadowspawn) I take were not anywhere near the Tower.

 

It seems more likely that the Seals were placed near the places they were found at.

 

GH, Chapter 4, Summoned, Just after Siuan had saw the broken seal Moiraine brought:

"It was those seven seals over which the Amyrlin Seat was supposed to be Watcher. The secret hidden from the world, if the world ever thought of it, was that no Amyrlin Seat had known where any of the seals were since the Trolloc Wars."

 

Different conclusions can be drawn from this :) But I think the creators of the Eye had several of the seals, if not all.

 

The Eye was being made during the Breaking.  Starting on the Tower was 98 AB and finished at 202 AB.

And Trollocs (and the other shadowspawn) I take were not anywhere near the Tower.

I remember that somewhere it is mentioned just that. Trollocs were in WT during Trolloc Wars. Do not remember where it is said though.

[Water Spirit]

I thought that the Seals were in WT until Trolloc Wars. After trollocs "visited" the tower it wasn't safe anymore to keep them there. And they were hidden all over the world.

[JenniferL]

I think that comes from the PC game, which isn't cannon.

[Kadere]

The Fisher King is correct in his knowledge of how many books were originally planned.

 

 

No he's not. WoT was never ever ever meant to be one book, and never really meant as a straight trilogy either.

 

Jordan's Writing Process: Jordan spoke a bit and answered a few questions about his writing process. He said that he originally thought the series would be 3 to 4 books. When he was negotiating a contract with Tom Doherty, he told Tom that he didn't know how long the series would be, but that he did know the ending. Jordan says that writers seldom get contracts under those circumstances, but Tom signed him one because he like Jordan's writing. The contract was for 6 books. After Jordan wrote the first book, he increased his estimate to 4-5 books for the series. After the second, he thought it would be 5-6, then 7 or more, etc. Now he does not give any estimate of the length of the series and is upset that the jacket of Lord of Chaos suggested that the series would end with 8 books. (Update: In an open letter sent courtesy of Tor Books, dated 19 May 1996, Jordan said that the series will comprise at least 10 books.)

[mb]

Why was the Eye of the World called so?  I think because it was/is eye-like.

The form you mean? And why have they made it eye-like? For the love of sculpture?  :)

eye-like in the sense that it helps in sight of locations elsewhere in the world.

 

The seals were in White Tower until Trolloc Wars?  No passage tells so.

 

The Eye was being made during the Breaking.  Starting on the Tower was 98 AB and finished at 202 AB.

And Trollocs (and the other shadowspawn) I take were not anywhere near the Tower.

 

It seems more likely that the Seals were placed near the places they were found at.

GH, Chapter 4, Summoned, Just after Siuan had saw the broken seal Moiraine brought:

"It was those seven seals over which the Amyrlin Seat was supposed to be Watcher. The secret hidden from the world, if the world ever thought of it, was that no Amyrlin Seat had known where any of the seals were since the Trolloc Wars."

The one found at the Eye could never have been in the White Tower because no one would be able to place the seal inside after the Eye was made.

The one found in Rhuidean probably could not have been in the White Tower either because that place was unapproachable for non-Aiel before the fog lifted.

 

The other 5 would be the most that could have been in the White Tower.

Though the more likely threat would have been the Black Ajah than Trollocs.

Edit: To test if the seals were in the White Tower up through the Trolloc Wars, we would need to know if the seals were seen being transported around the time.  Some Aes Sedia probably would have recorded such information if it took place.

 

[Durinax]

it is actually a surprise that any seals are in the hands of light at all, especially since DF's and shadowspawn would be looking for them for all that time, and I woulda thoguht that the myrrdral and trollocs woulda grabbed one or two during the trolloc wars

[Kal Logan]

It kind of makes you wonder why Mazrim Taim gave one of the seals to Rand if they were so important to the shadow. IMHO I dont think that there is much doubt as to where Taims' Loyalties lie.

[Durinax]

I think that Taim is like one of the forsaken (cant remember specifically which) but the more honours and praise he gets the more Taim resents Rand, this will/has force(d) him to the dark side

[Mr Ares]

I woulda thoguht that the myrrdral and trollocs woulda grabbed one or two during the trolloc wars

Perhaps they did. How much faith can we put in Taim's story of where he got his? Some of the others might have passed through the Shadow's hands before, although if they did they failed to keep them safe.

 

It kind of makes you wonder why Mazrim Taim gave one of the seals to Rand if they were so important to the shadow.

Getting Rand to trust Taim was important as well. Perhaps that was judged to be more important.

 

I think that Taim is like one of the forsaken (cant remember specifically which) but the more honours and praise he gets the more Taim resents Rand, this will/has force(d) him to the dark side

Well, that's a pattern that fits for Demandred, Be'lal and Sammael, as all of them were driven by envy of Lews Therin. Demandred in particular, has similarities with Taim.

[ErikTheBald]

Don't forget, Bayle Domon was in posession of a seal that was later confiscated by the HL Turak when Domon is captured by the Seanchan in TGH.  Turak was already in possession of another seal.  So we know that at least one seal made it across the ocean with Hawkwings armies.

[cloglord]

I don't know that the shadow would be all that interested in attaining the seals inthe millenia prior to TG.  Only the DO (and maybe Ishy) would have any clue that his efforts at weakening them were working, and even the BA would assume that since they were made of Cuendillar that they were functionally indestructable. 

 

I have my own personal theory, though it might have been articulated by others besides myself though, that the DO doesn't want the seals now in order to break them, but rather to keep them intact.  In KoD the strange rippling effect happens 3 times the same number of remaining seals.  What if the seals across the bore are allowing the DO to effect the pattern in ways that he was unable to during the war of the shadow by virtue of the fact that the seals had not been placed yet?

 

I visualize this idea like the seals being stiches across the bore, but the DO is using them like controls on a marionette and using the threads of the stitches to shake the pattern around in a rough and destructive manner, (IE the ripples.)  Maybe before there was a seal the DO was limited to reaching through but couldn't touch the pattern directly.

 

This would also explain why Taim wouldn't have a problem handing over a seal, he would have no reason to believe that Rand and Co. would do anything other than protect the seal, which if I am right, is what the DO would want anyway.

[Tyrell]

The seals were in White Tower until Trolloc Wars?  No passage tells so.

 

The Eye was being made during the Breaking.  Starting on the Tower was 98 AB and finished at 202 AB.

And Trollocs (and the other shadowspawn) I take were not anywhere near the Tower.

 

It seems more likely that the Seals were placed near the places they were found at.

 

GH, Chapter 4, Summoned, Just after Siuan had saw the broken seal Moiraine brought:

"It was those seven seals over which the Amyrlin Seat was supposed to be Watcher. The secret hidden from the world, if the world ever thought of it, was that no Amyrlin Seat had known where any of the seals were since the Trolloc Wars."

 

All this means is that the Amyrlin Seat knew where some or one of the seals was prior to the Trolloc Wars. All isn't the same as any. Also it could mean that she wasn't in possession of the seals but knew where they were (eg. one is placed in the eye).

 

As far as I am aware the eye was created during the breaking, as mb said, by Aes Sedai of both genders acting in accordance with some Foretellings. Speaking of Foretellings, I'd like to see a guy with some nifty powers like that. So far the women have all the dream-powers and the foretellings. I assume they are spirit related but strength in spirit is supposed to be divided evenly between the sexes.

 

Don't forget, Bayle Domon was in posession of a seal that was later confiscated by the HL Turak when Domon is captured by the Seanchan in TGH.  Turak was already in possession of another seal.  So we know that at least one seal made it across the ocean with Hawkwings armies.

 

Didn't necessarily leave randland via Hawkwing's armies. Could already have been on the Seanchan continent when his armies arrived.

[Water Spirit]

Speaking of Foretellings, I'd like to see a guy with some nifty powers like that. So far the women have all the dream-powers and the foretellings. I assume they are spirit related but strength in spirit is supposed to be divided evenly between the sexes.

 

I, personally, think that male chanelers are not able to foretell.

 

By the end of KoD the Black Tower has as many men as there is Aes Sedai in WT or even more (at least Taim claims so). As far as we have seen BT has matched The White Tower’s almost every discovery: healing wounds and stilling, bonding, building with one power, one power weapons etc. But so far we have never seen any men foretell, listen to the wind or dream.

 

I’m not talking about dreamwalking – visiting Thel’aran’rhiod in dreams – only about foretelling ability that is supposed to be connected with OP. I agree that it is a very rare talent, but we have a few women with the ability in the books. So I think that at least one men with the ability would be mentioned by now, if they could foretell.