flying using the one power

[Kaznen]

It's pretty much a given that a channler can't fly like Superman. However, what would happen if they were to levitate something that they were standing or sitting on like say, a broom stick?

 

I could picture AM standing of metal disks and levitating them with the power. Imagine how coool that would look with a AM dressed in black, with his sword, flying through the air into battle or lifting up through the air around the WT.

[Luckers]

I imagine if it were possible someone would have tried it... but you're right, that would be cool.

[Chel Vanin]

Yeah well dude, if u ever dismiss someones answer without backing it up with reasoning, ill crack down on you... Till then deal with the fact that sadly you weren't the centre of my attention when making that post.

 

I apologize, i was actually trying to make a joke although it failed miserably. There was no intent to offend or anger in anyway.

 

Yeah Kaznen that would be pretty sweet.

[Mardragon]

Luckers:

They fought in the mist generated by the Horn and an image of them was seen accross the sky. If they'd actually been in the sky fighting they likely wouldn't have been seen... too small and too much fog around.

 

Actually the book did suggest that they did end up in the sky, albeit the visions of them were shown in different places. (At least that was how I interpreted the passage but I could be wrong.) As I said it was probably the power of the horn that did it though rather than the One Power, the 'mist' acting as a ramp up there as it were (yeah I know mist doesn't do that in real life.. . but this is magic mist;) - or more likely a bit of special effects generated by the horn in conjunction with the 'levitating force' (however that's achieved).

 

As for 'gravitons'. This is a bastard child of star trek and holds no basis in fact.

 

Is that so? The program did state that it was theoretical.... I have heard it theorised elsewhere as well though, including a programme on quantum mechanics (although a lot of that stuff is also unproven)....

 

Gravity is a force, not a partical,

.... but I agree with you that this is most likely true.

 

expressed by the formula F = -G m(1)m(2)/r^2 where gravity (F)is shown as the negative of the Gravitational constant (G which = 6.67x10^-11) times the mass of the first object (m(1)) and the second object (m(2)) over the distance between the centres of the objects squared (r^2).

 

Ok, you lost me a bit there but I'll take your word for it. ;) Did you study physics or such like? Oh and people... there's no reason for sarcasm (although the playful jokey kind is ok). If you're not interested in something in a post you can always skip over it and just respond to the things you are interested in, or don't respond at all. I'm not a mod, so I don't have any power, just take that as a friendly suggestion. We're all different people and we all have our own tastes. I hope that doesn't sound patronising.

 

To defy gravity one must generate a force equel and oposite to the force of gravity at your position.

 

An oposing Gravity in the other direction (up) in other words? I'd think it would need to be stronger rather than equal to the 'anchoring gravity' or you'd be stuck in one spot... surely and the gravity would have to be really localised, or it would create havoc with the surrounding environment (but I might have misunderstood what you were describing. Did you mean 'opposing' in the sense that magnets can be switched positive or negative?).

 

There is no such thing as anti-gravity, or no gravity. Even in space where it seems there is no gravity, all that is happening is that the astronaut and the spaceship are falling at the exact same rate.

 

This is interesting, I didn't know that. (I'm not being sarcastic.) Has it been proven? Could it even be proven? Since everything falls at the same rate in space, how can one tell one is falling without a frame of reference? (I'm not saying it's not possible I'm just wondering how. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a way however.)

 

As for the supersuit thing- I think Demandred should wear a pink frilly number trimmed with lilac. I think that fits his character just dandy. Yes I'm being silly.

[Luckers]

Actually the book did suggest that they did end up in the sky, albeit the visions of them were shown in different places.

 

The books show that Rand and Ishamael were 'seen' fighting in the sky above Falme, above Taim, and we assume above that 'poor fool' in Tear. The actual position of their fight from Rand's POV is not set... he doesn't see the battle with his eyes, he is 'aware' of it.

 

Now, if we consider the fact that if they were actually fighting as themselves they wouldn't have been seen... they would have been too small and the mist would have shielded them from sight. Also given that we know a person cannot be held in the air above a certain level. 'Magic' in RJ's world is not mystical, its scientific.

 

Finally it makes no sense for the Horn to do what you suggest. It was constructed to call the dead heroes, not provide a deus ex machina effect to display Rand's dragondom to the nations. Far more likely is that the effect witnessed was an effect of the Weave of the Wheel. As Moiraine said, the Wheel would have no more False Dragons, therefore when it finally settled on the real, it acted (not nessasarily in a sentient manner) to show that.

 

My suspicion is that the horn creates a rift in which tel'aran'rhiod and the real world co-exist for a time. The Wheels need, likely expressed in the effect of Rand's Ta'verenism, resulted in a constructed image of the fight to be shown accross the sky. The need for this and the presense of tel'aran'rhiod reality allowed for an illusion or image of what occured to be shown.

 

Is that so? The program did state that it was theoretical.... I have heard it theorised elsewhere as well though, including a programme on quantum mechanics (although a lot of that stuff is also unproven)....

 

Yeah, its continued usage in tv shows and documentaries used to piss my physics teacher off. He'd go into diatribes about string theory and the like... went way over my head. The small point matter is that gravity is not a particle in any way, shape, or form.

 

An oposing Gravity in the other direction (up) in other words? I'd think it would need to be stronger rather than equal to the 'anchoring gravity' or you'd be stuck in one spot... surely and the gravity would have to be really localised, or it would create havoc with the surrounding environment (but I might have misunderstood what you were describing. Did you mean 'opposing' in the sense that magnets can be switched positive or negative?).

 

In a sense. Forces are not of a type. Gravity is one force, but it can be acted against by, say, a centripedal force... or for that matter a kinetic force (i.e. your arm). It simply in the nature of which is pushing harder. There are other problems too... the Laws of the Conservation of momentum and energy and inetia and the like... but those hurt my head to remember.

 

Creating a place of actual zero gravity is impossible except at an infinite distance away from all objects of mass.

 

As for oposite... Newton stated that every force is reacted against by an equal and opposite force, which would seem to imply that action of any kind is impossible... it doesn't actually mean this, but that again would take way too long to get into and im not sure i remember completely.

 

This is interesting, I didn't know that. (I'm not being sarcastic.) Has it been proven? Could it even be proven? Since everything falls at the same rate in space, how can one tell one is falling without a frame of reference? (I'm not saying it's not possible I'm just wondering how. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a way however.)

 

It has been proven. It's proven in the inherent nature of gravity. As for how can one tell? The person inside likely wouldn't be able to with their own eyes... Thats were the illusion of weightlessness comes from. Insturments can detect the acceleration due to gravity--though why someone would bother, i dont know. They can actually do this in the atmosphere too, i dont know if you've seen it... the take a plane up, and bring it into a dive towards the surface that matches exactly acceleration due to gravity resulting in seeming weightlessness inside the plane. You can even do it as a tourist in some places. It's not a terribly amazing discovery, just a common misconception.

[Hoop Snake]

It's pretty much a given that a channler can't fly like Superman. However' date=' what would happen if they were to levitate something that they were standing or sitting on like say, a broom stick?

 

I could picture AM standing of metal disks and levitating them with the power. Imagine how coool that would look with a AM dressed in black, with his sword, flying through the air into battle or lifting up through the air around the WT.[/quote']

Go and sit on a broomstick, and then try and lift it up with your arms so you float in the air. Same result.

[mike]

picture "skimming" without a gateway. step on a manhole cover and make it move.

[Mardragon]

picture "skimming" without a gateway. step on a manhole cover and make it move.

 

I think that lifting an object with yourself on it would cause much the same problem as trying to lift yourself. I think the main problem is that a person needs to be anchored (i.e. themselves on the ground), to be able to lift anything.

 

As for the whole skimming thing- bear in mind that is something quite different. The person isn't actually lifting an object with the power..or indeed lifting it at all. They are creating it much like someone can create something in the world of dreams. I'm certain they're not even moving it with the power, they just will it to move. The only power usage is in opening the portal in and out of that other dimension.

 

That being said, I'm not certain that someone who cannot channel would be able to 'make' and move platforms in that 'skimming hyperspace'. (That's not what it's called called in the book but there isn't really a term in the book for that other place...)

 

Then again I don't think someone could who could channel could just make a platform if the doorway were opened by another channeler. In effect, the one who channeled open the doorway owns the platform... but I don't think the one power is used to make or move the platform. If that makes sense.

[mike]

picture "skimming" without a gateway. step on a manhole cover and make it move.

 

I think that lifting an object with yourself on it would cause much the same problem as trying to lift yourself. I think the main problem is that a person needs to be anchored (i.e. themselves on the ground)' date=' to be able to lift anything.

[/quote']

 

where is the fact that one must be anchored mentioned? if one who channels can lift an aircraft carrier - jedi style - what prevents that fact from happening while on deck :?:

 

windfinders blow themselves around the world, correct? anchored to what?

don't forget the fact that even the forsaken don't know the full extent of their abilities. some of them don't know 1/10th of what some others do.

[OnePower-Napalm]

*Warning: I may be wrong!*

 

With that said i will continue. I believe it is well known that you cannot channel on something you cannot see, correct? (I.E. trying to lift a rock behind a hill while your on the other side) And because of this you cannot channel on yourself, because you cannot see yourself in entierty. (I am assuming you cannot reflect the power off a mirror ) By the same methods you cannot channel on something you are standing on (I.E. the aircraft carrier). The entire matter of line of sight issues are the cause of all of this.

 

You can lift the carrier (assuming you are strong enough in the power :shock: ) when you are not on it because you can see it. And obviously you can lift anything else, including other people. This goes back to the original theory of two people lifting each other.

 

Anchoring is not a problem with this theory. What you do is you have one of the channelers lift the other. The lifted one is now "anchored" to the power that is lifting him/her. Using the leverage, like the ground, you lift the other person. Thus you continue in this manner in "flight". The first channeler must, however, be strong enough to lift the both of them. Thier combined weight falls upon his/her channeling in the end.

 

Of course doing that is hardly worth all the effort but I certainly think you can do this. Again, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I have a nice little picture of how this could be done in my mind. :)

[Cybertrolloc]

I believe it is well known that you cannot channel on something you cannot see' date=' correct?[/quote']

Excepting the Aes Sedai that had a block where she couldn't channel except when her eyes were closed (Tarna?) or say different sexes countering weaves from each other. (I've never bought this one.)

 

Gravitons are ok in theory except at high energy, then the theory falls apart without going into something like superstring. Gravity differs from the other fundamental forces in that it's purely attractive, but the others all have intermediating particles and gravity can affect the massless ones (gravitational lensing of photons for example).

 

Using forces is mostly a matter of convenience for solving certainly problems (a flawed model that is useful only where it's assumptions are met...something like macro scale but not huge scale, not insanely hot or cold...), but the true fundamentals are mass-energy and momentum. My QM knowledge is more than a little hazy about gravity, it's difficult both conceptually and in the mathematics needed to deal with it, and I haven't had to deal with it since uni.

 

Oh and there is no proven in science, just that something does a good job explaining all the phenomena it's supposed to with the fewest number of assumptions as elegantly as possible.

 

This doesn't have much to do with flying though. I think the closest we've seen is Aginor way back in Eye of the World. Need to check back to what Rand said when he made that bridge in ACoS (curses, bath scene).

[Mardragon]

where is the fact that one must be anchored mentioned? if one who channels can lift an aircraft carrier - jedi style - what prevents that fact from happening while on deck :?:

It's not mentioned. I was simply considering why someone cannot lift themselves with the power, and this seemed reasonable to me, since there doesn't appear to be any other deffinitive answer (hence why I said 'I think'). It's just speculation on my part.

 

windfinders blow themselves around the world, correct? anchored to what?

 

That is a good point, they are in effect pushing themselves around (or rather the boat but you know what I mean) but they are still on the ground (well actually the sea.. but on a surface is what I mean). Yes I know the concept should still be the same - flying just requires pushing in another dimension after all- but I think that channeling ability is also limited to some extent by how the channeler thinks, how they can visualize, what they can accept. Consider how some have special skill in certain areas that others don't have even though they may be less powerful in the One Power as a whole.

 

Lifting oneself off the ground (whether directly or indirectly with an object) adds a whole seperate factor than pushing oneself across a surface. At least in the minds of the channeler, even if not in fact.

 

Maybe the key to flying is surrendering, which was how Nynaeve got past her chanelling block! I suspect it requires more than this though as I think that someone would have taken that step by now, but then again it took centuries for someone to rediscover how to make cuendillar... and one of the most powerful in that skill was one of the weakest Aes Sedai (Siuan's friend, her name slips my memory at the moment, I'll maybe edit this later when it returns...)!

 

don't forget the fact that even the forsaken don't know the full extent of their abilities. some of them don't know 1/10th of what some others do.

Yes, exactly.

[mike]

Mardragon

Yes I know the concept should still be the same - flying just requires pushing in another dimension after all- but I think that channeling ability is also limited to some extent by how the channeler thinks, how they can visualize, what they can accept. Consider how some have special skill in certain areas that others don't have even though they may be less powerful in the One Power as a whole.

 

Lifting oneself off the ground (whether directly or indirectly with an object) adds a whole seperate factor than pushing oneself across a surface. At least in the minds of the channeler, even if not in fact.

 

Maybe the key to flying is surrendering, which was how Nynaeve got past her chanelling block! I suspect it requires more than this though as I think that someone would have taken that step by now, but then again it took centuries for someone to rediscover how to make cuendillar

 

the whole slant on channeling is what is what we have learned from the "proper" instructing that the white tower uses, correct? any other uses are almost seen as blasphemy in the eyes of the aes sedai and in a roundabout way we reflect that in views i read here. one of the chief issues of the whole tale is the petty squabbling that takes place within the ranks of the aes sedai. it is so much like the US congress its not funny. the aes sedai hinder themselves by petty rules and laws that each tries to break in secrecy before getting caught and serving a pennance. the whole shakedown happens when 4 young women that are able to stomp the rest of the old bitties get out into the world - before they lay eyes on the stupid oath rod - and help to change world government along with what rand has done.

as far as using the power; the sea folk can do some powerful stuff as can the kin, wise ones, ashamen, seanchan, foresaken and even what lews does through rand. keep in mind that the aes sedai are the only group to put a muzzle on themselves and the use of the one power. why??

there is a lot of the use of OP that goes the way of "not used" because of lack of knowledge. if the combined knowledge of the above parties were used by one it would be outrageous.

 

what of the true power? is it the combined knowledge of all?

 

i think knowledge is the key word rather than block. moraine more or less hinted at the fact that rand would rediscover flying. she must have learned this while going though one of the many ter'agreal she has. the hoops they use for accepted/aes sedai show what could be future, the finns told her something in one of those doors and she went through the hoops at ruidan, correct?

who knows what knowledge that woman has at this point? maybe she knows how to fly. she could be the ultimate amyrlin in that sense.

[OnePower-Napalm]

*Warning: I may be wrong!*

 

With that said I will continue with my second post. I have another theory on flight. But first I need to re-emphasize a few points. I believe that talents, such as Dreaming and Foretelling do not use the OP, correct? And also, Didn't Moiraine say that Rand might have discovered the Talent of Flight? Perhaps it never used the OP at all and was misinterrpreted as having done so. In this way, not all Aes Sedai could fly, only those with the Talent.

 

Once again I may be completly wrong in everything I just said, and if I am, so be it and ignore this post.

[Mardragon]

Foretelling and dreaming however are powers of the mind. Actually I think you do need the ability to channel to foretell don't you? Since the visions seem to come when they will rather than as a result of channelling however, this does suggest that you're right- the One Power isn't used although the ability to channel probably opened the door to the ability. If that makes sense.

 

As for flying, since it is a physical power that requires physically moving ones body (whether it be by lifting, anti-gravity whatever) I would say that it definitely requires channelling to work. If the flying done purely with the spirit however (as in astral projection for example) then I don't think channelling would be required for that. Just a large degree of mental training, although the ability to channel might open the door to such things as with foretelling.

[Luckers]

I believe the ability of drawing on the Power changes people, and that is what results in Talents such as Foretelling, or the ability to see ta'veren, which is also limited to channelers, but not seeming to be an effect of direct channeling. Another one of these would be Slowing, and the general immunity to sicknesses mentioned by Moiraine and Nynaeve in the first book.

 

Dreaming does not seem to be one of these. I think, also, that Healing and other such Talents are Talents of a different category. Ones more to do with strength in different powers and affinity for different weaves. Other examples of these would be Egwene's ability with metals and earth, the creation of cuendillar, the creation of ter'angreal and so on.

 

moraine more or less hinted at the fact that rand would rediscover flying. she must have learned this while going though one of the many ter'agreal she has.

 

Actually she doesn't hint at it at all. When he disapears from the valley in the Dragon Reborn she wonders at the ease with which he avoided notice, and offers a wild solution in a way that suggests she doesn't believe it, and later when they find the tracks she says "well at least now we know for sure he hasn't rediscovered flying".

[OnePower-Napalm]

I did not mean that you could do such things without the ability to channel. What I meant is that, like Dreaming and Foretelling, you may not directly channel the OP to fly. Perhaps it is more like those in the way that you don't use the OP to accomplish it, but must be a channeler to have access to this Talent.

 

It would actually make very good sense for this to be the case. Since things that can be accomplished with such Talents are not normaly thought of to be accomplishable with the OP alone, and don't neccesarily follow the same rules as channeling.

[mike]

i picked up these books so long ago and have read them so many times i am bursting with "ben's crazy theories" and want to get the damned thing over with :oops:

 

keep in mind that any little factoid that an aes sedai drops in conversation proves to have more truth in it than what you want to know.

 

if moraine mentions rand and flying in the same sentence you can almost be positive she knows something. she gave over and quit butting heads with him for a reason. lan took him on as a project, or little brother, for some reason.

 

with the exception of some of the foresaken, who is more powerful than rand al'thor at present time? he cleansed saidin and frightened every person that could channel that wasn't there in the act. they had to have felt that in ayaad. he basically left the grand canyon behind as proof.

 

i think the 4 young women and moraine are the only that truly come close. others are strong but not aes sedai. ashamen, the kin, aiel and the seafolk are not restrained by an oath rod and can wreak havoc. he might be missing a hand but for how long?

 

i hope book 12 is as good as the first as it will take that kind of page turning action to sew up all of the loose ends.

 

if any has read all 11 existing books it is the equivelancy of ready a full unabridged dictionry and absorbing every single word.

that is a lot of reading :D

 

yeah, i am crazy.