Mat's Luck and Channeling

[Mr Ares]

Wrong. He was lucky in EF.

It's like I'm banging my head against a brick wall. Everyone is lucky, for a given value of lucky, but Mat's first increase in luck, supernatural luck, beyond what he was born with, came after Shadar Logoth. That was clearly what was being talked about.

We don't know that.

Yes, we do. See the aforementioned quote. The one where he said he got lucky after SL. I'd say that makes it a sure thing.

 

We don't know that it doesn't.

We know it didn't make Mat lucky.

No, we don't.

Yes, we do. He became lucky before he ever saw the Horn, and his luck remained constant on the road to Tar Valon after blowing it. Your not even bothering to read these responses, are you? If he became lucky before the horn, it could not be the Horn. If his luck remained unchanged after the Horn, it could not be the Horn. The timing does not fit for either jump. This is not opinion.

 

Fain isn't lucky like Mat is.

Mat doesn't have the ability to make illusions or torture Fades the way Fain does. Meaningless argument.

My point, answering another person (not you), was not meaningless.

It doesn't matter who you were answering, the fact remains that Fain's not having Mat's luck proves nothing. It is not an indicator of anything.

 

We don't know that it was because of the Dagger.

So what was it then, bearing in mind the timing does not fit for anything else?

 

We don't know that the luck or the tumbling dice are due to the Dagger. Him being healed from the effects of the Dagger resulted in increased luck.

And him picking up the dagger in the first place increased his luck. Two jumps, both related to the dagger. Have you got a better theory? Bearing in mind the timing does not fit for Horn, Healing or ta'veren.

 

It's certainly not impossible for the Horn to have caused the tumbling dice and/or some of the luck. If Mat has more than ta'veren-luck, that is.

Mat's first juimp in luck came before the horn. So it cannot be responsible for that. His luck remained constant on the way to Tar Valon, after blowing the Horn, so it cannot be that. The first time he diced after the Healing, his luck had increased. So either Healing or something to do with the dagger, and the first jump had nothing to do with Healing. The dagger is the only constant. The dagger is the only thing that fits the timing of both, and most things don't fit the timing of either - Horn and ta'veren, I'm looking at you. Seriously, you're not even trying to respond to what people are saying, are you? You mention the Horn, again and again, and fail to take into account that it has been addressed. Even if you think what has been said is insufficient, you don't bother to rebut it. You just ignore it. He got luckier before the Horn, he stayed as lucky after blowing it, then he got luckier again, and the Horn was not involved. You just have a mass of assumptions, no facts, and ignore all the facts brought against you. Stop it. Now.

 

we know it happens around/just before SL.

Before the series starts, even.

 

I would also like a quote showing his extreme luck before he gets healed from the dagger, provide a conclusive one and I will be convinced that the dagger isnt a luck suppressant

There is nothing to indicate that it is a luck suppressant, so you should give some sort of evidence that it is. Find anything that says he became less lucky after he got it, despite his claim that his luck actually improved. And he was lucky in Shienar, he was lucky on the road to TV, he dates his increase in luck to getting the dagger. It's pretty conclusive. You're just not listening. The quotes are here, in this thread, more than once for some of them. There aren't many, because of the lack of Mat povs before TDR, but we hear that he was extremely lucky against Hurin, though not as much so as he would later be, and was lucky in Shienar, and his luck increased after he got the dagger.

 

and I would also like to ask for a quote not from Mat that says the dagger has luck increasing traits, if the dagger does have the traits RJ would have surely put reitterated the point or foreshadowed it (reason i ask for one not from mat because I feel he is just fishing for a reason of his luck)

Mat was indeed fishing for a reason for his luck...hen he tried to put it down to the Healing, and thought anything was better than that (the dagger. This was already addressed. He never says "it was the dagger." He questions if it was, but that's the closest it gets. He tries to put the blame elsewhere. And RJ dealt with this in one chapter. One chapter of Mat's pov. It doesn't need any more than that, so why would it crop up again, why would it need pointless reiteration? It was dealt with. And why would anyone else comment on the dagger's luck giving properties, when no-one else knows it's the cause of Mat's luck? They don't know the timing as well as he does.

 

"Not worth keeping? Maybe they weren't. Light, I'm rich! I am bloody rich! Maybe it was something the Aes Sedai did. Something they did Healing me. By accident,maybe. That could be it. Better that than the other. Those bloody Aes Sedai must have done it to me."

See, he tries to put it down to something other than the dagger, even though the timing of the first jump in his luck doesn't fit.

[kamros]

Did his luck really jump all that much as soon as he got the dagger? i thought that happened a little later on in the book. a jump the way it did immediately after he got healed of the dagger.

[Mr Ares]

Mat thinks it was after he got the dagger that he got his first jump in luck.

[Durinax]

It doesn't matter who you were answering, the fact remains that Fain's not having Mat's luck proves nothing. It is not an indicator of anything.

 

If fain not having any huge jump in luck from the dagger kinda kinks up the dagger theory.

 

And like I said before there is no times before SL (other than trolloc attacks) that Mat needed luck/that he could use his luck so he might not have noticed it before

[OptimusPrime]

People for the Horn theory, I have a question. It will not seem relevent at first but I will explain after I get the answer.

 

For all you people who think Mat is wrong when he assumes its the dagger, answer this. What makes you think the Horn cant be blown by anyone else other than the person who blew it?

[Alghar Khan]

For all you people who think Mat is wrong when he assumes its the dagger, answer this. What makes you think the Horn cant be blown by anyone else other than the person who blew it?

I don't know whether he is wrong or not. I think Verin said that the Horn would be useless to anyone else. Mat is now "the Hornblower".

 

We don't know that it was because of the Dagger.

So what was it then, bearing in mind the timing does not fit for anything else?

Mat was lucky before the Dagger. Hawkwing was lucky as well. That's "the timing".

 

And him picking up the dagger in the first place increased his luck. Two jumps, both related to the dagger. Have you got a better theory? Bearing in mind the timing does not fit for Horn, Healing or ta'veren.

We do not know that the Dagger increased his luck. The timing fits him being ta'veren. He was lucky before the Dagger. Hawkwing was lucky also.

 

 

[Alghar Khan]

If he became lucky before the horn, it could not be the Horn. If his luck remained unchanged after the Horn, it could not be the Horn. The timing does not fit for either jump. This is not opinion.

If he became lucky before the Dagger, it could not be the Dagger. No, wait a minute...

 

Mat's first juimp in luck came before the horn. So it cannot be responsible for that. His luck remained constant on the way to Tar Valon, after blowing the Horn, so it cannot be that.

We don't know that it remained constant.

 

The first time he diced after the Healing, his luck had increased. So either Healing or something to do with the dagger, and the first jump had nothing to do with Healing.

The luck after the Healing could be caused by him being inactive (=sick) and not experiencing any situations where his luck may have been apparant. Or it could indicate that the Dagger suppressed his luck.

 

The dagger is the only constant. The dagger is the only thing that fits the timing of both, and most things don't fit the timing of either - Horn and ta'veren, I'm looking at you. Seriously, you're not even trying to respond to what people are saying, are you? You mention the Horn, again and again, and fail to take into account that it has been addresWsed. Even if you think what has been said is insufficient, you don't bother to rebut it. You just ignore it. He got luckier before the Horn, he stayed as lucky after blowing it, then he got luckier again, and the Horn was not involved. You just have a mass of assumptions, no facts, and ignore all the facts brought against you. Stop it. Now.

I have no assumptions at all. You're the one that assumes that the Dagger must have caused all and everything.

[OptimusPrime]

God damnit! I just replied with a decent sized post and with some more good points and then forgot to click Post!!!!!!

 

I'll repost when I get home. Im gutted as well, was being uber sly with internet at work when writing it lol.

 

EDIT

 

For all you people who think Mat is wrong when he assumes its the dagger, answer this. What makes you think the Horn cant be blown by anyone else other than the person who blew it?

I don't know whether he is wrong or not. I think Verin said that the Horn would be useless to anyone else. Mat is now "the Hornblower".

 

 

Exactly. She said it in TDR. Whatever her source, it would likely have mentioned Hornblowers luck, especially if on Mats level, because his whole army believe they cant lose if he leads because hes lucky. That kind of knowledge about the Hornblower would have been noticed and remembered.

 

Artur Hawkwing probably didnt prosper in every situation with no deciding factors like Mat does though. Rand doesnt either, neither does Perrin. Not unless there is something significant to be gained or lost with that game-thats Ta'veren luck. Mat wins at dice because its random, and not cards because they can be distributed deliberately with skill; thats how the dagger-luck works. If something serious was hanging on Rand, Mat or Perrin winning some contest, any contest at all, their Ta'veren would kick in and make them win. Ta'veren alters chance, making the unlikely likely. Mats weird luck doesnt do that. Mat could win at dice all day. Rand or Perrin would only win supernaturally if something the Pattern deemed necessary was hanging on the outcome of the game.

[mobius]

  I believe Mat's luck is tied to Rand's ability to Channel.

  In LOC Chapter 51 "The Taking" Rand is shielded and rendered incapable of channeling. In the next chapter "Weaves of the Power" Mat has only average luck. The third paragraph of this chapter mentions His luck ran in waves, and at the moment the wave seemed low, We do not encounter Mat again until after Rand has been freed. Chapter 14 "White Plumes" in COS he quite by chance picks out a "try" ring that attracts the interest of Tuon.

  In TFoH when Rand breaks Couladin's seige of Cairhien he is channeling all day long and at the same time Mat's luck keeps him alive. Chapter 44 "The Lesser Sadness" page 499 paragraph 4 "Where's my bloody luck now that I really need it?" He was a pea-brained fool for staying. Just because he had managed to keep the others alive this long did not mean he could keep it up. Soon or late, the dice would come up the Dark Ones Eyes.   

  Well he did keep it up, because in the next chapter "After the Storm" page 508 paragraph 2 he muses that another inch over and Couladins spear would have gone through his heart.

  It will be interesting to me to see if Mat's luck holds up if Rand is ever collared as male damane.(BTW all page and paragraph references are from hardcover editions.)

   

 

 

[Silmarien]

I think Mat's luck has nothing to do with channeling and Rand.

I think it's more something connecting to his being ta'veren and the healing.

Mat was already lucky before was healing but after it he became much much much much (....)more lucky.

I guess the dagger of Shadar Logoth and the healing from its evil had caused the great luck, but just because that was already lucky. I explain better: he had the bases of luck and the dagger and the healing (much more than the dagger) had taken-out this luck.

 

[OptimusPrime]

It isnt Ta'veren. Unless, of course, every single game Mat won had something important hanging in the balance. Who knows, maybe Mat won them all because he will need all the gamblers he took money from to be at the Last Battle  :'(

[a pale tanned lover]

It isnt Ta'veren. Unless, of course, every single game Mat won had something important hanging in the balance. Who knows, maybe Mat won them all because he will need all the gamblers he took money from to be at the Last Battle  :'(

 

He was paying the Band of The Red Hand from his money that he won until KOD, Being Ta'veren and winning the money that he would need to pay an army. You do know that being ta'veren supplies the things that they need before they realize they need them.

[OptimusPrime]

Mat played dice, the game with no deciding factors other than the randomly rolling dice. Which means Mat wins. Mats luck means if there are no deciding factors for or against anyone, Mat becomes the deciding factor. If Mat got enough money to pay the Band by playing cards and got all the same comments in his PoV about weird luck, tehn that would be Ta'veren, because cards arent dealt purely at random.

 

MATS LUCK ONLY INVOLVES HIM BENEFITTING, AND ONLY WHEN THE OUTCOME IS RANDOM. THAT IS NOT TA'VEREN CHANCE ALTERING. We might as well completely sever the word luck from Ta'veren because it is chance, not luck, that Ta'veren alter. Luck is what people who dont know how Ta'veren works call it. If chance worked in your favor when you absolutely needed it, people would say its luck, but the Ta'veren would say no, its chance and probability. No luck involved.

[a pale tanned lover]

Well i never mentioned luck.

 

Quote from the Glossary: Ta'veren: A person around whom the wheel of time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads.

 

I'm not sure i understand what your saying, is it that Mat's luck is more powerful then the wheel of time?

Mat squeezed his eyes shut for a moment. Six banners of horse and five of foot. And a banner of masons! The Band had only been two banners counting horse and foot when he left them in Salidar. He wished he had back half the gold he had handed over to Luca so freely. "How am I supposed to pay that many men?" he demanded. "I couldn't find enough dice games in a year!"

 

So having his army is all about luck then, just a random thing, nothing to do with being ta'veren?

 

[Mr Ares]

If fain not having any huge jump in luck from the dagger kinda kinks up the dagger theory.

Not in the slightest.

 

And like I said before there is no times before SL (other than trolloc attacks) that Mat needed luck/that he could use his luck so he might not have noticed it before

Then why does he date it to that point?

 

Mat was lucky before the Dagger.

Then he got luckier when he picked it up. Address that point, for once. Stop avoiding it.

 

We do not know that the Dagger increased his luck.

But we do know he got lucky right after he picked it up. Which is what I said.

The timing fits him being ta'veren.

He was ta'veren for weeks with no jump in luck.

He was lucky before the Dagger.

Then he got luckier.

 

If he became lucky before the Dagger

He didn't. He started off lucky, then he got luckier when he picked it up. There was no preceding jump in luck, just what he was born with.

 

We don't know that it remained constant.

Yes, we do.

 

Or it could indicate that the Dagger suppressed his luck.

He got luckier right after he picked it up.

 

I have no assumptions at all. You're the one that assumes that the Dagger must have caused all and everything.

You do have assumptions. Any theory requires them. The dagger is by far the most likely thing. Nothing else is likely, most of your suggestions aren't even possible. Now, stop trolling and address the points people raise.

 

I believe Mat's luck is tied to Rand's ability to Channel.

It isn't. His two jumps in luck are not related to Rand's channeling.

 

I think it's more something connecting to his being ta'veren and the healing.

Then explain why his luck did not improve until he picked up the dagger? The timing does not relate to his being ta'veren, as he was ta'veren for a while with no increase in luck.

 

Well i never mentioned luck.

 

Quote from the Glossary: Ta'veren: A person around whom the wheel of time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads.

 

I'm not sure i understand what your saying, is it that Mat's luck is more powerful then the wheel of time?

Mat squeezed his eyes shut for a moment. Six banners of horse and five of foot. And a banner of masons! The Band had only been two banners counting horse and foot when he left them in Salidar. He wished he had back half the gold he had handed over to Luca so freely. "How am I supposed to pay that many men?" he demanded. "I couldn't find enough dice games in a year!"

 

So having his army is all about luck then, just a random thing, nothing to do with being ta'veren?

What?

[a pale tanned lover]

Quote from: a pale tanned lover on Today at 04:35:00 AM

Well i never mentioned luck.

 

Quote from the Glossary: Ta'veren: A person around whom the wheel of time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads.

 

I'm not sure i understand what your saying, is it that Mat's luck is more powerful then the wheel of time?

Quote

Mat squeezed his eyes shut for a moment. Six banners of horse and five of foot. And a banner of masons! The Band had only been two banners counting horse and foot when he left them in Salidar. He wished he had back half the gold he had handed over to Luca so freely. "How am I supposed to pay that many men?" he demanded. "I couldn't find enough dice games in a year!"

 

So having his army is all about luck then, just a random thing, nothing to do with being ta'veren?

What?

 

Mat's luck with the dice was paying for his army. Mats luck comes from being Ta'veren.

[Mr Ares]

Mat's luck with the dice was paying for his army. Mats luck comes from being Ta'veren.

The one does not prove the other. The two are not the same.

[a pale tanned lover]

Mat's luck with the dice was paying for his army. Mats luck comes from being Ta'veren.

The one does not prove the other. The two are not the same.

Quote from the Glossary: Ta'veren: A person around whom the wheel of time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads.

 

Maybe the Glossary should have included-unless they find a magical dagger that provides luck stronger then the wheel of time which over-rides being ta'veren.

 

[Alghar Khan]

Mat was lucky before the Dagger.

Then he got luckier when he picked it up. Address that point, for once. Stop avoiding it.

Yeah, and he got even luckier later on. The Dagger reduced his luck during the rest of the time.

 

He was lucky before the Dagger.

Then he got luckier.

Yeah, he was lucky in EF. Then he got luckier. And after that he got luckier. Not so surprising after all.

 

If he became lucky before the Dagger

He didn't. He started off lucky, then he got luckier when he picked it up. There was no preceding jump in luck, just what he was born with.

He did. He was lucky in EF. He became ta’veren in EF. Ta’veren such as Hawkwing can be lucky. Nothing surprising about Mat being lucky in EF.

 

We don't know that it remained constant.

Yes, we do.

It isn’t so just because you say it.

 

Or it could indicate that the Dagger suppressed his luck.

He got luckier right after he picked it up.

Really? He doesn’t even trust his own memories. Those that he got left. Coincidences can happen. Ta’veren luck can come and go in waves. People can be ta’veren of different magnitudes. He could have been a weaker ta’veren in EF than he was deemed by the Wheel later on. It’s a possibility. Even a probable one. (The Dagger suppressed his luck, and you answer this with “he got luckier after he picked it up”?)

 

[Silmarien]

Mr Ares i think the being ta'veren "helped" him to find the dagger that increased his luck.

Ta'veren in this matter  ;)

 

And about the luck, you said first he was lucky before and the he got luckierafter and then u said he wasn't lucky before, what d u mean exactly? LOL

 

In the 3rd book (if i'm not wrong) Mat clearly says he was already lucky in his life but not so much as he was now. So that's explained he was lucky, just not as much as he was after he took the dagger and after he was healing, 'cos i'm sure the healing increased this condition!

 

It isnt Ta'veren. Unless, of course, every single game Mat won had something important hanging in the balance. Who knows, maybe Mat won them all because he will need all the gamblers he took money from to be at the Last Battle  :'(

 

What do u mean? All the gamblers he played with are now in the Band?  ??? And when is it said this?

 

 

And what is it EF? I make confusion with all the abbreviations i have to think about, english and italian!

[Hybrid]

The Dagger reduced his luck during the rest of the time.

How exactly did you jump to this conclusion?

 

And what is it EF?

Emond's Field.

[dholm]

It's possible that the dagger suppressed his luck for some reason - it could certainly explain the jump in his luck when he is severed from it. What it doesn't explain is the jump in luck when he first picks it up.

 

The increases in his luck and their connection to the dagger is solely one of timing; there is no proof at all otherwise. (Mat's opinion is also based on the timing, so it falls under the same header.)

[Phariah]

i still think of him as naturally lucky person that got a boost from taveren

the way i see it the luck and taveren are ebbing and flowing but at different speeds, he is lucky, but at times  when his luck is in and his taveren is in also, he gets that freaky luck ( like when he was looking for Comar found him randomly walking into a tavern{luck}, than used his fixed dice to roll a better set {freaky luck}, his taveren was already in effect directing him to Tear where he had to be{the pattern was pulling him to where he had to be in its weaving at that time} )

 

don't forget Mat doesn't want to be taveren or even believes he is one, i mean that fight with Galad and Gawyn he says "from the first blow, he knew that luck, or skill, or whatever had brought him this far, was still there "

that was taveren not luck just as was when the shaido df tried to kill him and the blade broke on his foxhead,

thus when he first thinks of it u notice everything but taveren comes up as a reason for his luck

 

that whole paragraph when he states  his luck came from the dagger in SL is a whole self delusional rambling for justification , he starts "he was lucky. he could remember always being lucky." but than he focuses on the times he was unlucky looking for justification

"but it was not just since leaving the two rivers that he had become lucky. the luck had come once he took the dagger from shadar logoth." ( that is as we know a false statement because he has already said he has been lucky and is known by his EF friends as lucky, thus he was lucky in EF and notice it says " he had become lucky since leaving EF " not "luckier" not even when he says the dagger made him lucky ..not luckier)

and to show how positive and focused Mat is when makes that statement he says next ("but im free of the bloody dagger."he mumbled"those bloody Aes sedai said i was." he wondered how much he won tonight)

he than goes on to blame Aes Sedai for causing the luck.. wait no it was the healing.. wait no it was bela's fault

 

he sounds alot like a rookie cop in his first shooting trying to justify shooting someone w/ a cell phone in his hand ( i said i was police and to freeze he raised his hand i saw a flash, im sure it was a gun, i told him to freeze, it was his fault { meanwhile the cop just paniced and shot the dude accidently but he is justifying what he did to cope, saying anything })

 

so there is no proof he got luckier when he picked up the dagger , nothing

there is no proof that the dagger caused his luck, nothing

because the only proof is self delusional statements

he himself admits he has no idea where his luck is from

 

no matter how many times you enlarge the text u still have no proof

 

oh ya since this isnt from the books i know it isn't proof but i thought it was funny, in the WOT RPG in Mat's description his Taveren is given as the cause of his luck. lol  ;D  just a side note

 

[OptimusPrime]

Mr Ares i think the being ta'veren "helped" him to find the dagger that increased his luck.

Ta'veren in this matter  ;)

 

And about the luck, you said first he was lucky before and the he got luckierafter and then u said he wasn't lucky before, what d u mean exactly? LOL

 

In the 3rd book (if i'm not wrong) Mat clearly says he was already lucky in his life but not so much as he was now. So that's explained he was lucky, just not as much as he was after he took the dagger and after he was healing, 'cos i'm sure the healing increased this condition!

 

It isnt Ta'veren. Unless, of course, every single game Mat won had something important hanging in the balance. Who knows, maybe Mat won them all because he will need all the gamblers he took money from to be at the Last Battle  :'(

 

What do u mean? All the gamblers he played with are now in the Band?  ??? And when is it said this?

 

 

 

I was being sarcastic. Ta'veren doesnt make you win automatically, not unless the outcome of the game was significant to the Pattern. My comment on people Mat gambled with was sarcasm. Who knows, maybe he needed to beat those men so they were angry enough to look for him, and when they find him it just happens to be at the right time where they can help in the Last Battle.

 

Of course, that is sarcasm, not to be taken literal. The gist of it is the Pattern wont have made him win as many games as he did. UNLESS the Wheel decided there was something significant in every single one of those games, which is a stretch and then some.

[Silmarien]

I understood, but my question was another LOL

The members of the Band are all the people Mat played with? It's said about some of them in the 5th book but then when is it said about it?