Mat's Luck and Channeling

[OptimusPrime]

What happened when he was lucky? And is that before he got the dagger? I cant check as I dont have the first 4 books so I cant explain unless I know what happened.

 

P.S. APTL please dont take me disagreeing with you in two seperate threads as a personal attack.

[a pale tanned lover]

lol same here Optimus we just have different views so no harm intended.

 

He was almost dying before moiraine restricted the dagger's influence on him, he had no luck from when he got it till he was healed or partially healed, my main argument is if you prove where he had luck just because he had the dagger then its might be true, but there is not a piece of evidence to suggest that before Moiraine intervened he had any luck.

[Mr Ares]

The suppressed luck he was talking about is the fact that Mat's luck increased right after he was healed. Why would his luck increase soo much right after being healed of the dagger unless it was actually keeping his luck down?

Why would it increase rright after he got it if it was keeping his luck down?

 

there is not a piece of evidence aside from the quote Mr Ares posted 5 hours ago saying he got lucky right after he got the dagger to suggest that before Moiraine intervened he had any luck.

Corrected for you. Don't dismiss the evidence.

[dholm]

Supply the quote that links the first jump in luck with him getting the dagger.

[Mr Ares]

Supply the quote that links the first jump in luck with him getting the dagger.

Again? It's been provided more than once in this thread. "The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth."

[Thor]

I would like to ask for a quote/situation that proves mat has less luck before Fal Dara.

Where's the quote/situation that proves that Mat got lucky after becoming ta'veren? 

 

the evidence is that rand started channeling after becoming ta;veren, perrin started becoming wolfbrother after becoming ta'veren.

 

therefore is it a simple logical conclusion that mat became lucky after becoming ta'veren.

[Mr Ares]

the evidence is that rand started channeling after becoming ta'veren, perrin started becoming wolfbrother after becoming ta'veren. therefore is it a simple logical conclusion that mat became lucky after becoming ta'veren.

While your conclusion is accurate, your method is not at all logical. "The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth." He was already ta'veren by the time they reached SL, therefore he became lucky some time after he became ta'veren.

[a pale tanned lover]

the evidence is that rand started channeling after becoming ta'veren, perrin started becoming wolfbrother after becoming ta'veren. therefore is it a simple logical conclusion that mat became lucky after becoming ta'veren.

While your conclusion is accurate, your method is not at all logical. "The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth." He was already ta'veren by the time they reached SL, therefore he became lucky some time after he became ta'veren.

 

The pull of Rand being a stronger ta'veren would override this. It only changes if the pattern has a different course of action for Mat. Thats when his luck happens, its in the books.

[OptimusPrime]

I would like to ask for a quote/situation that proves mat has less luck before Fal Dara.

Where's the quote/situation that proves that Mat got lucky after becoming ta'veren? 

 

the evidence is that rand started channeling after becoming ta;veren, perrin started becoming wolfbrother after becoming ta'veren.

 

therefore is it a simple logical conclusion that mat became lucky after becoming ta'veren.

 

After, not because of. Mat has a half-hearted effort at convincing himself it was something the Aes Sedai did but it really was only halfhearted, but we have no reason at all to think the Power can make someone permanently lucky in situations when the outcome is random. We have more reason to believe it was the dagger both because of the timing in the increase in luck and the fact that we know the evil of Shadar Logoth could change people.

[a pale tanned lover]

I would like to ask for a quote/situation that proves mat has less luck before Fal Dara.

Where's the quote/situation that proves that Mat got lucky after becoming ta'veren? 

 

the evidence is that rand started channeling after becoming ta;veren, perrin started becoming wolfbrother after becoming ta'veren.

 

therefore is it a simple logical conclusion that mat became lucky after becoming ta'veren.

 

After, not because of. Mat has a half-hearted effort at convincing himself it was something the Aes Sedai did but it really was only halfhearted, but we have no reason at all to think the Power can make someone permanently lucky in situations when the outcome is random. We have more reason to believe it was the dagger both because of the timing in the increase in luck and the fact that we know the evil of Shadar Logoth could change people.

 

Got Dagger=Increase of luck=no because it almost killed him.

[Alghar Khan]

He was already ta'veren by the time they reached SL, therefore he became lucky some time after he became ta'veren.

Wrong. He was lucky in EF.

 

We have more reason to believe it was the dagger both because of the timing in the increase in luck and the fact that we know the evil of Shadar Logoth could change people.

"The timing" coincides with other things as well. Like the Horn.

[OptimusPrime]

The dagger changing people falls into a pattern with Fain as well though, and we dont know if the Horn makes people lucky. We would most likely have heard that the Hornblower becomes lucky. The dagger timing is bob on and we know it can change people permanently. And... Mat notes that he wasnt weird lucky in Emonds Field, only after he was Healed. Healed from the dagger, that is, not the Horn or becoming Ta'veren.

[Alghar Khan]

The dagger changing people falls into a pattern with Fain as well though,

Fain isn't lucky like Mat is.

 

and we dont know if the Horn makes people lucky.

We don't know that it doesn't.

 

We would most likely have heard that the Hornblower becomes lucky.

The Horn was more or less a myth. Mat was already ta'veren when he blew the Horn. He could even have been short-listed for becoming a Hero of the Horn himself. He was in a very special situation.

 

The dagger timing is bob on

Mat was lucky before the Dagger. The Dagger suppressed his luck. We don't know that the luck or the tumbling dice are due to the Dagger.

 

and we know it can change people permanently.

Yes. But not that it makes people lucky. We have never heard even a rumor or a myth telling about how being healed from an evil influence might make you lucky. 

 

Mat notes that he wasnt weird lucky in Emonds Field, only after he was Healed. Healed from the dagger, that is, not the Horn or becoming Ta'veren.

Maybe that's because the Dagger was suppressing his luck. Being Healed made him free from the suppressing effect of the Dagger. Mat was lucky in EF, whether "weird" or not.

[Phariah]

ok im in the group that says Mat was always lucky and taveren increased it ;D

if u take taveren out the picture u have Rand = the reborn soul of LTT , and a born channeler "sparker" ; Perrin = wolfbrother ; Matt = lucky , they were all heroes born into the pattern to help it. well re-born in Rand's case seeing as how the Dragon was already tied to the wheel  ;)

and Mat showed luck when he survived that trolloc fight before SL , when he tapped his old blood , i mean he was the softest target and came out of it quite fine luckily  ::)

his luck was needed to help him survive the corruption effect of the dagger till he was healed , than when he was healed his taveren boosted luck was no longer held back and became like a drug od when he went on the gambling spree :o

he has always been lucky this is a known fact from his memories and pov and from his friends as Rand states " Mat is the lucky one "  as an old friend that knows another from growing up

dagger rotted his mind thats all

Mat even admits he has no idea where his luck came from

the most viable reason is he was lucky and got a taveren boost , i mean it isn't unreasonable to link the 2 seeing as how they both effect chance and work in ebb and flow ( waves ) ;)

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

Im tired of people ignoring evidence. How can you ignore when Mat himself notes he wasnt this lucky in Emonds Field (yes he was lucky but NOT THIS LUCKY). Mat himself knows it was the dagger. He isnt daft and he isnt wrong.

 

I withdraw. People are to stubborn to see what is right in front of them.

[Durinax]

I think it is you who are ignoring evidence Optimus, but we are all entitled to our opinions

[Mr Ares]

the evidence is that rand started channeling after becoming ta'veren, perrin started becoming wolfbrother after becoming ta'veren. therefore is it a simple logical conclusion that mat became lucky after becoming ta'veren.

While your conclusion is accurate, your method is not at all logical. "The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth." He was already ta'veren by the time they reached SL, therefore he became lucky some time after he became ta'veren.

The pull of Rand being a stronger ta'veren would override this. It only changes if the pattern has a different course of action for Mat. Thats when his luck happens, its in the books.

What?

 

I would like to ask for a quote/situation that proves mat has less luck before Fal Dara.

Where's the quote/situation that proves that Mat got lucky after becoming ta'veren?

the evidence is that rand started channeling after becoming ta;veren, perrin started becoming wolfbrother after becoming ta'veren.

 

therefore is it a simple logical conclusion that mat became lucky after becoming ta'veren.

After, not because of. Mat has a half-hearted effort at convincing himself it was something the Aes Sedai did but it really was only halfhearted, but we have no reason at all to think the Power can make someone permanently lucky in situations when the outcome is random. We have more reason to believe it was the dagger both because of the timing in the increase in luck and the fact that we know the evil of Shadar Logoth could change people.

Got Dagger=Increase of luck=no because it almost killed him.

Again, what? You're not making any sense.

 

Wrong. He was lucky in EF.

It's like I'm banging my head against a brick wall. Everyone is lucky, for a given value of lucky, but Mat's first increase in luck, supernatural luck, beyond what he was born with, came after Shadar Logoth. That was clearly what was being talked about.

 

"The timing" coincides with other things as well. Like the Horn.

No. It coincides with nothing else. It began after Shadar Logoth, long before he ever set eyes on the Horn. Then he is still lucky during the Great Hunt, up to blowing it, and then his luck is unchanged throughout the journey to Tar Valon after blowing it. This is not speculation. This is not opinion. This is fact. Unarguable fact. It does not fit the Horn.

 

We don't know that it doesn't.

We know it didn't make Mat lucky.

 

Fain isn't lucky like Mat is.

Mat doesn't have the ability to make illusions or torture Fades the way Fain does. Meaningless argument.

 

Mat was lucky before the Dagger. The Dagger suppressed his luck.

I'll say it once more, in really big letters, so hopefully it will sink in this time: "The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth." It did not supress his luck, it made him luckier. That was the first increase in his luck. Not ta'veren, not the Horn. The dagger.

 

We have never heard even a rumor or a myth telling about how being healed from an evil influence might make you lucky.

Well, it is stated that it is unknown what effect it might have on him, he became luckier before the Healing, not many people are Healed, there is no telling whether or not everyone would have the same side effects, there are no rumours that people under the influence can summon ghosts.

 

Maybe that's because the Dagger was suppressing his luck.

Of course! That explains why he became luckier after he got it, it was suppressing his luck! That makes perfect sense! And the complete lack of evidene to support it makes such a convincing case! Drop the "suppressing luck" line unless you have something to back it up, because it contradicts the facts.

 

ok im in the group that says Mat was always lucky and taveren increased it ;D

Then you're wrong, and lacking an explanation for why his luck didn't increase until he got the dagger.

they were all heroes born into the pattern to help it.

No. Just Rand.

Mat even admits he has no idea where his luck came from

So? Just because Mat doesn't know, doesn't mean we don't. And the timing doesn't fit for ta'veren.

 

I think it is you who are ignoring evidence Optimus, but we are all entitled to our opinions

Not when they ignore and blatantly contradict the facts. Look at Alghar Khan repeatedly saying the dagger suppressed his luck, or that the timing fits for the Horn. Neither has any basis in fact, and are explicitly contradicted by the text, by Mat saying he got luckier after Shadar Logoth. You are ignoring facts, that is undeniable. If you are prepared to debate reasonably, go ahead. But always bear this in mind:

"The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth."

[Alghar Khan]

Wrong. He was lucky in EF.

It's like I'm banging my head against a brick wall. Everyone is lucky, for a given value of lucky, but Mat's first increase in luck, supernatural luck, beyond what he was born with, came after Shadar Logoth. That was clearly what was being talked about.

We don't know that.

 

We don't know that it doesn't.

We know it didn't make Mat lucky.

No, we don't.

 

Fain isn't lucky like Mat is.

Mat doesn't have the ability to make illusions or torture Fades the way Fain does. Meaningless argument.

My point, answering another person (not you), was not meaningless.

 

[Alghar Khan]

Mat was lucky before the Dagger. The Dagger suppressed his luck.

I'll say it once more, in really big letters, so hopefully it will sink in this time: "The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth." It did not supress his luck, it made him luckier. That was the first increase in his luck. Not ta'veren, not the Horn. The dagger.

We don't know that it was because of the Dagger.

 

Maybe that's because the Dagger was suppressing his luck.

Of course! That explains why he became luckier after he got it, it was suppressing his luck! That makes perfect sense! And the complete lack of evidene to support it makes such a convincing case! Drop the "suppressing luck" line unless you have something to back it up, because it contradicts the facts.

We don't know that the luck or the tumbling dice are due to the Dagger. Him being healed from the effects of the Dagger resulted in increased luck.

[Hybrid]

Mat was lucky before the Dagger. The Dagger suppressed his luck.

I'll say it once more, in really big letters, so hopefully it will sink in this time: "The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth." It did not supress his luck, it made him luckier. That was the first increase in his luck. Not ta'veren, not the Horn. The dagger.

We don't know that it was because of the Dagger.

Not 100%.  But it is by far the best theory out there.  I could even accept ta'veren as part of the explanation.  But the Horn?  No way.

[Alghar Khan]

Not 100%.  But it is by far the best theory out there.  I could even accept ta'veren as part of the explanation.  But the Horn?  No way.

It's certainly not impossible for the Horn to have caused the tumbling dice and/or some of the luck. If Mat has more than ta'veren-luck, that is.

[OptimusPrime]

Not 100%.  But it is by far the best theory out there.  I could even accept ta'veren as part of the explanation.  But the Horn?  No way.

It's certainly not impossible for the Horn to have caused the tumbling dice and/or some of the luck. If Mat has more than ta'veren-luck, that is.

 

I could accept that the Horn might have caused the Dice in Mats head, considering how important the Horn is supposed to be. The Hornblower being supernaturally aware of when significant evens are happening to him sounds good.

[Durinax]

Mr. Ares tell me the exact point where mat becomes taveren, with chapter and page number, I believe you cannot conclusively link this to a certain time, but we know it happens around/just before SL.

 

I would also like a quote showing his extreme luck before he gets healed from the dagger, provide a conclusive one and I will be convinced that the dagger isnt a luck suppressant

 

and I would also like to ask for a quote not from Mat that says the dagger has luck increasing traits, if the dagger does have the traits RJ would have surely put reitterated the point or foreshadowed it (reason i ask for one not from mat because I feel he is just fishing for a reason of his luck)

[dholm]

RJ has stated the three become ta'veren before Moiraine shows up in the Two Rivers.

[Hybrid]

I posted this freaking quote in this thread already.  Gah.

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,45617.msg1209751.html#msg1209751

 

Q: Does ta’veren-ness ebb and flow as needed? If Rand, Mat, and Perrin were all ta’veren growing up, it seems that the Two Rivers would have had a lot of odd events occurring, but no mention is made of it.

 

RJ: You might say that ta’veren-ness ebbs and flows. For one thing, remember that even for someone like Rand, the effects are really occasional, not continuous. Even when he is causing dozens of coincidences in a particular place, many more events pass off quite normally. For another thing, no one is born ta’veren. Rand, Mat, and Perrin only became ta’veren just before Moiraine appeared. You become ta’veren according to the needs of the Wheel. Like the Heroes linked to the Wheel, who are spun out as needed to try to keep the weaving of the Pattern straight, a man or woman becomes ta’veren because the Wheel has “decided” to use them as an influence on the Pattern. And, no, the Wheel isn’t sentient. Think more of a fuzzy logic device that uses feedback to correct what it is doing in order to do it in the most efficient way.