Mat's Luck and Channeling

[Thorn]

Mat thinks "The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth" in Chapter 30 of TDR.

 

Which is also very close to the time that his ta'veren status kicked in -- near the beginning of the events in Eye of the World.

 

Mat's just wrong when he makes that statement -- it's his own suspicion, and deserves no more special attention than Mat's similar suspicions that his luck comes from the Dark One.  There's no actual evidence (like, for example, a hundred different characters all stating that ta'veren individuals can be wildly lucky) to indicate that the dagger would cause luck; Fain shows no luck similar to Mat's.

[Mr Ares]

Which is also very close to the time that his ta'veren status kicked in -- near the beginning of the events in Eye of the World.

He is quite specific, he wasn't as lucky in EF.

 

Mat's just wrong when he makes that statement

Of course he is.

Fain shows no luck similar to Mat's.

Irrelevant. Mat shows no ability to torture Fades similar to Fain.

[Thorn]

Mat's just wrong when he makes that statement

Of course he is.

 

I'm glad we agree =)

 

As has been pointed out to you before, there are points later in the series where Mat references his luck as deriving from his ta'veren status.

 

Irrelevant. Mat shows no ability to torture Fades similar to Fain.

 

Of course Mat doesn't. Because he has no remaining link to the dagger or to Shadar Logoth.

[Mr Ares]

As has been pointed out to you before, there are points later in the series where Mat references his luck as deriving from his ta'veren status.

No, there aren't. As has been pointed out, the reverse is true, he references his luck as separate from ta'veren.

Of course Mat doesn't. Because he has no remaining link to the dagger or to Shadar Logoth.

Irrelevant. He didn't get his memories back, did he? Some of the changes were permanent. Such as it giving him luck.

[dwn]

I'd equate Mat's luck with Perrin talking to wolves, as both set in around the same time and both are known effects. We've seen other Wolfbrothers, and the ter'angreal that bends chance suggests that luckiness was not unknown in the AOL.

 

Mat equating it to taking the dagger from Shadar Logoth is probably a cum hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy on his part. That being said, some kind of interaction with the dagger (or the resulting illness) is definitely implied, since Mat's luck spikes for a few days following his healing.

 

-- dwn

 

[Mr Ares]

Mat equating it to taking the dagger from Shadar Logoth is probably a cum hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy on his part.

But while he says that's when it starts (the correlation) he only questions whether it was the cause, he doesn't accept it. Although he does think he doesn't awant to consider that possibility. So Mat's thoughts amount to a "I really, really hope that correlation does not imply causation in this case." I'm not sure what the Latin term would be.

[OptimusPrime]

Mat equating it to taking the dagger from Shadar Logoth is probably a cum hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy on his part.

But while he says that's when it starts (the correlation) he only questions whether it was the cause, he doesn't accept it. Although he does think he doesn't awant to consider that possibility. So Mat's thoughts amount to a "I really, really hope that correlation does not imply causation in this case." I'm not sure what the Latin term would be.

 

EGO vere, vere spes ut correlation does non ingenero causation huic theca

 

http://www.translation-guide.com/free_online_translators.php?from=English&to=Latin

[Mr Ares]

Mat equating it to taking the dagger from Shadar Logoth is probably a cum hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy on his part.

But while he says that's when it starts (the correlation) he only questions whether it was the cause, he doesn't accept it. Although he does think he doesn't awant to consider that possibility. So Mat's thoughts amount to a "I really, really hope that correlation does not imply causation in this case." I'm not sure what the Latin term would be.

 

EGO vere, vere spes ut correlation does non ingenero causation huic theca

 

http://www.translation-guide.com/free_online_translators.php?from=English&to=Latin

Done backwards, that gives us: "I truly, truly hope when correlation does not to plant causation in this case."

 

Vox iam, meus Latin Magister est spinning in suus sepulchrum. Or something like that, anyway. (Right now my Latin Master is spinning in his grave.)

[dwn]

Linking his luck strictly to the dagger is a post hoc fallacy. Just because his luck developed sometime after he found the dagger doesn't automatically mean that the dagger caused it. Everyone developed their "thing" as time went on. Mats luck/memories, Rands channeling, Perrin's dreams and wolf brother abilities.

 

I tend to agree with this interpretation, but it's clear that either the dagger, or the healing associated with it, somehow caused Mat's luck to spike in Tar Valon.

 

What follows is beyond speculation. I am making it up as I go along. There will be metaphors.

 

The dagger was killing Mat. Put another way, the corruption of SL was stretching Mat's thread in the pattern to the breaking point. When he was healed, that influence was suddenly gone, his thread 'snapped' back, causing a localized disruption of the pattern around him.  Since Mat is ta'veran with a Lucky Talent, that disruption manifested itself as an outpouring of luckiness.

 

-- dwn

 

[mb]

Everyone developed their "thing" as time went on. Mats luck/memories, Rands channeling, Perrin's dreams and wolf brother abilities.

The Eelfinn gave Mat his memories.  Luck, the books do not mention Mat gambling in Two Rivers before he left after becoming taveren nor in Baerlon.  Slight chance either were contributed to his taverenness.

Rand's channeling, that comes from either his genetics or from being reborn of Lews Therin or both; not from being taveren.

Perrin's wolfbrother abilities (of which dreamwalking is one), I take that also is genetic.  The only way his taverenness could have contributed is in his meeting with Elyas.

 

[Durinax]

he did gamble once in two rivers against a guy with sly eyes or something, that indicated that the toher participant was cheating

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

...and his father horsewhipped him when he found out he owed the guy (a merchant's guard possibly) a silver mark.

 

His luck is definitely associated with the dagger from shadar logoth and then being healed from it. However, i think the nights when he 'never loses' such as the one in tar valon, that added twisting of chance to make his luck perfect is coming from his ta'veren-ness.

 

To sum it up, his being overall very lucky comes from his link to the dagger.

 

His once in a while, flawless, win every toss, supernatural luck comes from his being ta'veren.

 

I say supernatural because im sure some of us (i do) know someone who is just an overall lucky person. Everything pretty much always goes their way, things fall into their lap, etc, to the point that people around them are baffled. That luck is from the dagger, but the whole chance going wild thing is a combination of his luck from the link added to his being ta'veren and twisting chance.

 

So, i think its safe to say, the dagger caused the luck, and him being tied to the pattern occasionally makes it go completely haywire.

[Durinax]

haha I am the antimat, I have negative luck. I played some blackjack the other day and lost everyhand except for one, while everyone else was winning 60-80% of their hands

[Robo-Hillbilly]

Ok here is what I have picked up so far.

 

1. There are multiple passages in the series that indicate Mat has ALWAYS been the lucky one, most have been sited in this thread.  Fact

 

2. There are multiple passages in text referring to Mat as the Gambler. Fact

 

3. There are multiple indications through out the entire series Ta'veren alters chance. Fact

 

4. It is indicated in text that Perrin, Mat and Rand all manifested as Ta'veren around the same time. Fact

 

5. The Ta'vereness of all three of the boys increases during the first few books as shown by RJ numerous times in the text.  Fact

 

6. There has never been three Ta'veren found in the same area, at the same time before, so no one in Randland is expert in this situation. Fact

 

7. Rand and Perrin gain a special ability during the time their ta'varenness grows.  Fact

 

8. Rand has had people speak truth around him many times, and the books point to his Ta'vareness.  Fact

 

9. Perrin has people flee safety to follow his lead and the book points to his Ta'vareness. Fact

 

10. Mat has a lucky streak after the first healing and then more luck after Fal Dara. Fact

 

11. Mat continues to enjoy his luck after the dagger has been removed WAY back in book 3. Fact

 

12. Anything in SL is corupt with the Evil that destroyed Aridhol. Fact

 

13. The Evil of SL is extreme and manifests itself into a fog that it can kill by touch. Fact

 

14. The text explains that when Mat removes the dagger from SL he is corupted and without the quick aid of Morraine would have died. Fact

 

15. Morraine does something to lessen the evil of the dagger in hopes of getting Mat to TV so he can be properly severed from the dagger, then he is healed again by Verin Suian and others in Fal Dara to help shield him from its taint until TV where they can remove the link to the dagger but it still may kill him. Fact

 

16. Mat becomes paranoid when he has the dagger and that paranoia increases the longer he keeps it. Fact

 

17. The dagger is described to be deadly even if it nicks, shown by the death of the DF assasin. Fact

 

18. When Fain has the dagger from Fal Dara to Falme, he gets more cruel and more paranoid. Fact

 

From all of these facts we can see Mat is Ta’varen and his special ability is luck, and the dagger is extremely evil and causes much pain and suffering.

 

The dagger has been described as an extremly vile item through out the series, but is never described in a posative light. There is no indication through out the text of the dagger causing things to go well or “LUCKY” for Mat, it only makes him paranoid, destroys his memories,  and makes him sick .

He has been without the dagger for atleast 9 books now and his luck remains. Fain has the dagger since what book 5. His luck is deffinately not better than Mat's, and Fain may actually have the DO's luck.

 

Only one time in a passing thought by Mat is it mentioned that the dagger might be the cause of his luck.

 

However, there is a wealth of evidence that Mat's luck is something to do with his Ta'veren and healing from the dagger,

 

I am not sure how anyone can believe the dagger is what gave him his luck? His LUCK saved him from the vileness of the dagger. Luck is just Mat's thing. Rand = Channeling, Perrin= wolverine, Mat = lucky rogue gambler. the DO even made models of them early in the series book 1 or maybe book 2

 

Quote from: The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 8

“Perhaps,” Moiraine said. “Perhaps not. No one knows anything about ta’veren as strong as Rand.” For just a moment she sounded vexed at not knowing. “Artur Hawkwing was the most strongly ta’veren of whom any writings remain. And Hawkwing was in no way as strong as Rand.”

“It is said,” Lan put in, “that there were times when people in the same room with Hawkwing spoke truth when they meant to lie, made decisions they had not even known they were contemplating. Times when every toss of the dice, every turn of the cards, went his way. But only times.”

 

Rand fits the spoke truth when they meant to lie.

 

Perrin fits the made decisions they had not known they were contemplating.

 

Mat fits Times when every toss of the dice, every turn of the cards, went his way.

 

I have not read everypage of this massive thread, but can any of the "dagger luck" people give multiple examples where the books indicate the dagger is the cause of his luck?

I have only seen Mat's thoughts as proof, which I think even Mat has discounted this far into the series, and conjecture.

 

[Mr Ares]

Well, bear in mind there are not multiple examples of ta'veren being the cause of his luck. There are, in point of fact, none. So asking for multiple examples for the dagger is a double standard. And you yourself say that it was the dagger when you mention the Healing. Now, Mat thinks of the luck as separate from ta'veren, it started at a different time to his ta'veren, he is quite specific on that point, and there is nothing at all to indicate that it was not the dagger.

[Thorn]

One other detail that hasn't been discussed yet:

 

I recently had the opportunity to check the Wheel of Time Roleplaying Game sourcebook (I don't have a copy, but a family member does). It gives character statistics for Matrim Cauthon. He is described as having taken the "Dark One's Own Luck" feat three times (which allows him to re-roll die rolls three times a day and take the best one).

 

Those feats are marked with an asterisk, and the footnote to that asterisk reads "Mat has these feats as a result of being ta'veren. If he ever loses his ta'veren status, he loses these feats as well."

 

That isn't completely incontrovertible proof, because the WoT game sourcebook is  probably only semi-canonical, but it does add another layer to the debate.

[Mr Ares]

It adds nothing. The WoT RPG sourcebook has been wrong before, and even directly contradicted the books. It is an untrustworthy source.

[Robo-Hillbilly]

Well, bear in mind there are not multiple examples of ta'veren being the cause of his luck. There are, in point of fact, none. So asking for multiple examples for the dagger is a double standard.

 

There are multiple exapmles through out the series that indicate Ta'varen alters chance, which is what has brought Mat his "luck". example the Maidens all tossing sixes when Rand is around, the Statement from Lan quoted in my post. those are external sources pointing to the fact that Ta'varen alters chance. Not one time in the series do we see outside sources indicating that the dagger has any magical properties other than it's complete vileness. Mat is only theorizing he was lucky when he had the dagger since that statement was made he has relied on his luck without having the dagger. If Rand or Perrin were ever shown sitting at the table dicing they would most likely win as much as Mat. However, they are not the rogues of the series Mat is.

 

And you yourself say that it was the dagger when you mention the Healing. Now, Mat thinks of the luck as separate from ta'veren, it started at a different time to his ta'veren, he is quite specific on that point, and there is nothing at all to indicate that it was not the dagger.

 

What I am theorizing is his removal from the dagger through healing allowed his Ta'varenness to flourish since his "luck" is not being used up keeping him alive from the vileness of the dagger.

 

The closest I can go to the dagger having anything to do with Mat's luck is that the vileness and evil was the trigger of the Ta'veren need for Mat's luck to keep him in the pattern. If Mat were not Ta'veren he would have died before the dagger could have been removed. the dagger is not "lucky" Mat is.

[Cillian]

There are multiple exapmles through out the series that indicate Ta'varen alters chance, which is what has brought Mat his "luck". example the Maidens all tossing sixes when Rand is around, the Statement from Lan quoted in my post. those are external sources pointing to the fact that Ta'varen alters chance.

 

The important difference is Ta'veren twists chance for everyone around whereas Mats luck only works for him.

[Robo-Hillbilly]

I was just reading the summary of New Spring and it appears the Black Ajah were killing anyone that showed they were abnomaly lucky.

 

Another example that luck is atributed to Ta'varen. There is NO mention of a dagger with a lucky atribute

[Mr Ares]

I was just reading the summary of New Spring and it appears the Black Ajah were killing anyone that showed they were abnomaly lucky.

 

Another example that luck is atributed to Ta'varen. There is NO mention of a dagger with a lucky atribute

They were killing lucky men because they were looking for the Dragon Reborn, and that's a sign that men are Channeling. They do things with the Power that appear as luck. They were not looking for ta'veren, so in point of fact it works against you as not all abnormal luck can be attributed to ta'veren.

 

Well, bear in mind there are not multiple examples of ta'veren being the cause of his luck. There are, in point of fact, none. So asking for multiple examples for the dagger is a double standard.

There are multiple exapmles through out the series that indicate Ta'varen alters chance, which is what has brought Mat his "luck". example the Maidens all tossing sixes when Rand is around, the Statement from Lan quoted in my post. those are external sources pointing to the fact that Ta'varen alters chance. Not one time in the series do we see outside sources indicating that the dagger has any magical properties other than it's complete vileness. Mat is only theorizing he was lucky when he had the dagger since that statement was made he has relied on his luck without having the dagger. If Rand or Perrin were ever shown sitting at the table dicing they would most likely win as much as Mat. However, they are not the rogues of the series Mat is.

The wat ta'veren alters chance is different. Mat's luck alters things in his favour, and his favour alone. Ta'veren alters things in ways that might go for or against the ta'veren, or have nothing to do with him. The Maidens all throwing sixes, for example. When has Mat's luck ever done that? Helped other people win, even when he isn't playing? So the way it alters chance is different to Mat's luck. Mat is not theorising he was lucky with the dagger, he is stating as fact that he was. He was lucky, then he got the dagger and became luckier, then he was luckiest after the dagger. The luck didn't begin until after SL, so the timing doesn't fit with ta'veren, as he was ta'veren in the TR, but the luck didn't start then. Mat consistently characterises his luck as separate from ta'veren. He refuses to dwell on the dagger possibly being the source of his advanced luck, but that doesn't mean that's not where it came from. And what Lan says is a thousand year old rumour in a series which shows how often rumours and stories are unreliable. It doesn't really help us get to the bottom of things with Mat's luck. As for the dagger, we do see that it has magical properties. Fain has powers, beyond his ability to track Rand, beyond his ability to corrupt people. The illusions of the recently dead? The ability to torture Fades? These have no clear origin in either Fain (as adapted by Shai'tan) or Mordeth. They come from Shadar Logoth. As does the dagger, which is the source of its power. And Fain is mentioned as being lucky.

 

And you yourself say that it was the dagger when you mention the Healing. Now, Mat thinks of the luck as separate from ta'veren, it started at a different time to his ta'veren, he is quite specific on that point, and there is nothing at all to indicate that it was not the dagger.

What I am theorizing is his removal from the dagger through healing allowed his Ta'varenness to flourish since his "luck" is not being used up keeping him alive from the vileness of the dagger.

What? Ta'veren doesn't work like that. It wasn't "used up" keeping him alive. After he picked it up, he got luckier.

 

the dagger is not "lucky" Mat is.

No, the dagger is not lucky but it is the source of Mat's luck. Nothing says it would have the same effect on everyone else, but that's the effect it had on Mat. It made him luckier when he picked it up, and his luck increased after he lost it, but both increases relate to the dagger.

[a pale tanned lover]

Removed. Spoilers.

[Mr. Dragon]

I was just reading the summary of New Spring and it appears the Black Ajah were killing anyone that showed they were abnomaly lucky.

 

Another example that luck is atributed to Ta'varen. There is NO mention of a dagger with a lucky atribute

They were killing lucky men because they were looking for the Dragon Reborn, and that's a sign that men are Channeling. They do things with the Power that appear as luck. They were not looking for ta'veren, so in point of fact it works against you as not all abnormal luck can be attributed to ta'veren.

 

If the BA knew that the Dragon had just been reborn on the slopes of dragonmount, they would also know that he wouldn't start channeling for 15-20 years. They wouldn't know when Rand would become ta'vern though and so they started targeting boys/young men in particular who were lucky. They did of course go for men who could channel aswell but that is mainly because it was the red (black) ajah that did the hunting.

[Mr Ares]

If the BA knew that the Dragon had just been reborn on the slopes of dragonmount, they would also know that he wouldn't start channeling for 15-20 years. They wouldn't know when Rand would become ta'vern though and so they started targeting boys/young men in particular who were lucky. They did of course go for men who could channel as well but that is mainly because it was the red (black) ajah that did the hunting.

They didn't know the Dragon had only just been reborn. They knew he had been reborn, but thought he was about to start Channeling (going off incomplete information). Hence the killing of men who were starting, and inciting the Reds to illegally gentle men. They wouldn't necessarily know Rand would become ta'veren at all. Have we seen in any of the Prophecies that he would be? They were looking for Channelers, sparkers, not a ta'veren. It's in New Spring.