Mat's Luck and Channeling

[dholm]

M-A-T. Not M-A-T-T. Mat.

 

Typing in all caps does not make your point any better. If Mat has the Dark One's own luck, in any way whatsoever, it cannot come from ta'veren.

[Blackhoof]

*facepalm* weren't you listening, Monty just explained what i have been trying to say, MAT IS TAVEREN, so he is lucky, his luck does not come from the dark one. Mat probably got angry because he knowshis luck is supernatural, but he doesn't know where it comes from, and when the guy said, "the dark ones own luck", Mat freaked out because it occured to him that it might be from the DO, (not that it is).

 

Ps. Where did Mr Ares go? Is he on holidays or did he abandon his dagger theory?  ;)

[Hybrid]

Mr. Ares, your arguing that a memory from a person who lost a good deal of his memories, are actually fact.

 

I seem to remember that you couldn't heal channeling, rand thought he wasn't the Dragon reborn for a bit, perrin though he couldn't talk to wolves. maybe characters can be wrong...

Exactly, so why is everyone putting weight on Lan's fiftieth-hand statement about Artur Hawkwing?  It is said about a man who has been dead for a thousand years that such-and-such happened.  It's also said that Rand, a man who is still alive, killed Morgase and Elayne in his conquest of Andor.  I'm glad we are relying on what is said about someone here.

 

If Mat's luck comes from being ta'veren, Perrin and Rand should have the same luck.  They don't.  Mat's luck does not come from being ta'veren.  That's about as simple as it can get.

[Alghar Khan]

Exactly, so why is everyone putting weight on Lan's fiftieth-hand statement about Artur Hawkwing?  It is said about a man who has been dead for a thousand years that such-and-such happened.  It's also said that Rand, a man who is still alive, killed Morgase and Elayne in his conquest of Andor.  I'm glad we are relying on what is said about someone here.

Well, Mat has amnesia. And Hawkwing's luck was known before Mat became lucky in Emond's Field. Meaning, we have confirmation that ta'veren can be lucky.

 

If Mat's luck comes from being ta'veren, Perrin and Rand should have the same luck.  They don't.  Mat's luck does not come from being ta'veren.  That's about as simple as it can get.

So, because Mat and Arthur Hawkwing are/were lucky, we should also think that Perrin and Rand have the same kind of luck? I don't think we can say that. We don't know why certain ta'veren are lucky. They could have special key roles to play, like "Rand=the Dragon" and maybe "Mat=the trickster, gambler, ...".

 

[Lord Monty]

M-A-T. Not M-A-T-T. Mat.

 

Typing in all caps does not make your point any better. If Mat has the Dark One's own luck, in any way whatsoever, it cannot come from ta'veren.

 

You wrote in caps just like I did then right after said typing in caps doesn't make your point.  ;) well done. You deserve the slow clap of excellence.....clap.......clap

[dholm]

Eh, no, I wrote in caps when spelling out a name, which is not unusual. It draws attention to the mistake you made.

 

I said that typing in all caps doesn't make your point any better after I spelled out Mat's name, not before. Perhaps you should stop trying to make yourself look better.

 

Blackhoof, I am not talking about the situation in TDR. I am talking about RJ saying that Mat has the Dark One's own luck "in a way".

 

I am amused that no one seems to realize that I was arguing pro-ta'veren for the first half of this thread, then changed my opinion when the quote was provided. I am also amused that no one currently arguing pro-ta'veren is hitting any of the points I did.

[Durinax]

I changed my opinion from protavern to pro-suppression in a effort to try and find middle ground between protaveren and prodagger theories

[Blackhoof]

just so you all know, i only resd pages 1-3 and 30-32 of this thread (can you be bothered reading 30 pages?) so any points or some-such provided earlier i have missed. Sorry if i am re-running things.

[Mr Ares]

Mr Ares, your arguing that a memory from a person who lost a good deal of his memories, are actually fact.

So your argument is that because he has forgotten a few things, everything he remembers is thus completely wrong?

 

I seem to remember that you couldn't heal channeling, rand thought he wasn't the Dragon reborn for a bit, perrin though he couldn't talk to wolves. maybe characters can be wrong...

So that would make Mat wrong when he thought that he didn't know what caused it?

 

Matt's luck is a result of him being ta'veren.

It wasn't true the first time it was said, it isn't true now.

The evidence for this is in TDR chapter 8 page 116 in the paperback edition.

Addressed before. Not a compelling argument. Would you care to explain why Mat doesn't think of it being ta'veren, why he considers the two separately? Or why we should accept an "it was said" of someone a thousand years dead in a series all about how information gets distorted? People also say Hawkwing duelled an entire army.

 

Finally someone agrees with me!!! Mat is taveren, so he is lucky, it affects him differently than the others, but HE IS TAVEREN!

Someone else agrees with you, therefore someone else is wrong.

 

RJ was asked this, and said no.

In reference to the dagger, theres your no, happy mr. Ares?

No. Firstly, you don't have an RJ quote. Secondly, had you actually bothered to check what Luckers was talking about (or maybe you did, you just though we would accept your word. Didn't work), you would have seen this:

RJ was asked this, and said no.

To what does his "No" apply? Can't tell from your phrase. :)

Sorry, the connection between the ter'angreal dice and Mat's luck.

So, nothing at all to do with the dagger. Remember, I read the thread. I was there on page 1. If someone had disproved the theory, I  would have noticed.

 

And characters can be wrong

Doesn't mean everything they say or think is. Mat dates the luck to after SL, quite specifically. Not after the Eye, after the TR, after he became ta'veren, after being Healed. After SL.

so are you saying that the dagger caused the luck, even though luck comes naturally for ta'veren, then didn't show an effect until a book later?

No, I'm saying the luck isn't natural for a ta'veren, and it came after SL. Not in TGH, although that is the first time we see it.

 

So you pick up something and it makes you stronger, and then you get rid of it, and you get WAY stronger, how does that make sense? answer THAT!

RJ didn't explain that. He just gave us certain facts: that his first increase did not begin until after SL, and that the second happened after he was severed from the dagger. Two increases, both relating to the dagger. No reason why it should be ta'veren. None at all.

 

Fain gained his abilities from a combination of what was done to him in Shayol Ghul and fusing with Mordeth, not the dagger,

Fain's ability to find Rand comes from Shai'tan, as well as his merging with Mordeth rather than being replaced by him, and his ability to talk people round is indeed from Mordeth. He has other abilities, though, which might not be from the dagger, but are certainly from SL - and iven that is where the daggers powers come from, it amounts to the same thing.

(BTW, Fains "gifts" have nothing to do with luck, do they?")

Tell that to Slayer. And so what? It giving powers needn't mean it gives everyone the same powers, does it?

That blows your explanation out of the water, then.

Not in the slightest, any more than it did the first dozen or so times people tried using it.

 

ok people if you are gonna use the fact that Mat says he gained his luck from the Dagger at SL.

He didn't. He states he first got lucky after he acquired the dagger, questions whether it did something to him, thinks it might have been the Healing (timing doesn't fit for the first increase in luck), thinks he would rather it be anything but the dagger. This has been said repeatedly. Read the thread and stop trolling.

so please link some facts that shows he had luck from picking it up at SL

Read the thread. The quote has been provided numerous times, no matter how much you ignore it.

 

Mwa ha ha ha ha! Ares has no chance when we all gang up on him! Good work guys!

"You don't understand. I'm not locked in here with you. You're locked in here with me."

 

Ok did no body read my post?

Read it. Nothing new. Your theory is still wrong. Always has been, always will be. And why should we believe this quote? After all, characters are wrong all the time...

Mat's luck is not due to a tainted dagger

You have one quote. I have more. If we go with the evidence, you have given us no reason why we should accept your theory over mine. That quote is irrelevant. It has been brought up numerous times, as you would know if you had read the thread. It convinced no-one then, it will convince no-one now. You have done nothing to address the dagger theory. Why does Mat think of his luck and being ta'veren as separate, even as late as Winter's Heart (if not later)? Why does he state so clearly that the luck came not in the TR - when he became ta'veren - but after SL?

 

If you continue to deny this plain fact

It is no such thing. Quite the reverse.

 

*facepalm* weren't you listening, Monty just explained what i have been trying to say,

We know what you are trying to say, and it is wrong. All your talk does is delay my inevitable victory.

 

Ps. Where did Mr Ares go? Is he on holidays or did he abandon his dagger theory?  Wink

Busy with other things. Dagger theory still only one with evidence to support it. You're still out of luck.

 

Exactly, so why is everyone putting weight on Lan's fiftieth-hand statement about Artur Hawkwing? It is said about a man who has been dead for a thousand years that such-and-such happened. It's also said that Rand, a man who is still alive, killed Morgase and Elayne in his conquest of Andor. I'm glad we are relying on what is said about someone here.

Well, Mat has amnesia. And Hawkwing's luck was known before Mat became lucky in Emond's Field. Meaning, we have confirmation that ta'veren can be lucky.

Mat's amnesia is neither here nor there. That characters can be wrong is a double edged sword. Mat questions whether or not it was the dagger, and hopes to buggery it isn't that. On the other hand, 1,000 year old rumours about Hawkwing that have passed through so many hands are considere dmore reliable? Hardly. We have no reason to accept this quote about Hawkwing as definitive proof of anything.

 

You wrote in caps just like I did then right after said typing in caps doesn't make your point.  ;) well done. You deserve the slow clap of excellence.....clap.......clap

His point was correct no matter the case - Mat's name only has one t in it. Yours is wrong no matter the case - all the evidence we have suggests it was the dagger.

 

I changed my opinion from protavern to pro-suppression in a effort to try and find middle ground between protaveren and prodagger theories

Suppression contradicts the facts.

 

Now, hurry up and cease your futile opposition, so I can post a victory speech in honour of my greatness.

[Alghar Khan]

Well, Mat has amnesia. And Hawkwing's luck was known before Mat became lucky in Emond's Field. Meaning, we have confirmation that ta'veren can be lucky.

Mat's amnesia is neither here nor there. That characters can be wrong is a double edged sword. Mat questions whether or not it was the dagger, and hopes to buggery it isn't that. On the other hand, 1,000 year old rumours about Hawkwing that have passed through so many hands are considere dmore reliable? Hardly. We have no reason to accept this quote about Hawkwing as definitive proof of anything.

Mat's amnesia is a known fact. Hawkwing+Mat is both here and there (Mat was always lucky), meaning that we have confirmation that ta'veren can be lucky.

[Mr Ares]

Mat's amnesia is a known fact.

So is Perrin's beard. Doesn't make it a relevant fact. Why should we mistrust his remaining memories, troll?

[Alghar Khan]

Trust him when he says "there were times in Fal Dara and with Hurin when 6 or 8 tosses went my way", yes. Trust him when he tries to reconstruct (after the fact) when something he hadn't thought much about started, no.

[Mr Ares]

In other words, we dismiss it if it isn't convenient to your argument, and rely on 1,000 year old rumours which are clearly going to be more reliable.

[Alghar Khan]

They are reliable because they both comment on something that actually did happen according to the story. You are comparing that with one single thought on something that might have happened, if he hasn't forgotten about something else. Which he well might have, since he's an amnesiac. And even if  it did start at that one particular time, then it is still not described as a "jump". It might have been a slight increase.

[Mr. Dragon]

This is a quote from LoC pages 856 and 857 paperback edition:

 

"Mat did not understand why he suddenly felt the dice rolling in his head. He knew that sensation well. Sometimes he felt it when his luck was running strong in the gambling. It always was there when a battle was in the offing."

 

And another quote, also from LoC, page 925

 

"Rattling the five dice in the leather cup, Mat spun them out on the table. They stopped with two crowns, two stars and a cup showing. A fair toss; no better. His luck ran in waves, and at the moment the wave seemed low, meaning he won on more than half his tosses at most."

 

These quotes reveal a good amount, firstly, his luck run wavs unrelated to incidents of the dagger. This is deduced by knowing that while the dates did sort of fit with the dagger at first, this trend has not continued over a long term. As we do not know of a mechanism by which the dagger can imbue luck, the dagger luck theory, unless significantly more evidence is given, can be dismissed. The same is true with the channeling theory. Secondly, the top quote gives us a definant link between Mat's battle luck and that of his luck in gambling. We know that ta'vern strength comes in waves, just like Mat's luck, we know that ta'vern affect chance; we can reasonable assume that Mat's battle luck is conected to him being ta'vern, and we have the link between his battle luck and that during gambling. I feel that it is therefore reasonable to assume that Mat's luck is due to his being ta'vern.

[pxnsolid]

And Ta'vern arent born ( per say) they're made. They aren't ta'vern at birth, even if they are going to become so. So we can assume ( yes i know you shouldnt assume) that he would have been more lucky to begin with if it weren't for the dagger. He atains the dagger around the point where being ta'vern manifests itself, so hes more lucky then he was prior to the dagger, but its not because of the dagger. Then when hes healed, the negative effects from the dagger are removed, and hes even more lucky.

[dholm]

He became ta'veren (all three did) a few weeks prior to Moiraine's arrival in Emond's Field. If it was because of ta'veren, it should have manifested earlier.

[pxnsolid]

Fair enough, but theres nothing to show ta'vern right away in any of them. Maybe it took time.

[Mr Ares]

They are reliable because they both comment on something that actually did happen according to the story.

We have no reason to accept your rumours as a reliable source. Even if we did, it still doesn't indicate this is ta'veren.

You are comparing that with one single thought on something that might have happened, if he hasn't forgotten about something else.

So one single 1,000 year old rumour that has passed through any number of hands in a series in which rumours and stories about the distant past are so often shown to be unreliable is more reliable than one person thinking about something that actually happened to them with nothing at all to contradict it? When there is further evidence to support the dagger any way, even if we disregard his memories about when it started, so there is still nothing to support ta'veren.

And even if  it did start at that one particular time, then it is still not described as a "jump".

That is not in the slightest bit relevant. It jumped, whether or not it was ever referred to as a jump.

 

These quotes reveal a good amount, firstly, his luck run wavs unrelated to incidents of the dagger.

Irrelevant. Had you bothered to read the thread, you would see this has already been discussed.

This is deduced by knowing that while the dates did sort of fit with the dagger at first, this trend has not continued over a long term.

Not so - there are only two changes to his luck, the first after SL, the second after the Healing, thus both relating to incidents with the dagger. It runs in waves throughout, but the waves are higher after he picks up the dagger, and higher still after he is Healed. Your quotes say nothing to change that.

As we do not know of a mechanism by which the dagger can imbue luck, the dagger luck theory, unless significantly more evidence is given, can be dismissed.

As the dagger theory is the only one with any evidence to support it, dismissing it would be foolish. Two people have had prolonged contact with the taint of SL, Fain and Mat, and both developed supernatural abilitites. A small sample size, perhaps, but still interesting to note. So, we have established that the dagger can probably give powers to anyone who can survive it, there is no need for "significantly" more evidence. Indeed, every other theory needs it, given that they have none to support them. The same is true with the channeling theory.

Secondly, the top quote gives us a definant link between Mat's battle luck and that of his luck in gambling. We know that ta'vern strength comes in waves, just like Mat's luck, we know that ta'vern affect chance; we can reasonable assume that Mat's battle luck is conected to him being ta'vern, and we have the link between his battle luck and that during gambling. I feel that it is therefore reasonable to assume that Mat's luck is due to his being ta'vern.

Yet Mat doesn't, something which people have consistently failed to address. Mat is aware he is ta'veren. He is aware he is lucky. He accepts both these things. Yet he accepts them as different. His ta'veren does things, his luck does things. So it is not reasonable to say that his luck and his ta'veren are one and the same, not when Mat doesn't consider them so, not with no evidence to support this theory. The dagger theory has the most evidence.

 

He atains the dagger around the point where being ta'vern manifests itself, so hes more lucky then he was prior to the dagger, but its not because of the dagger.

Mat himself is quite clear on when he first becomes lucky - after SL, not in the TR. But it was in the TR that he became ta'veren. Furthermore, we have no reason to believe the dagger made him in any way less lucky. Quite the reverse. So why, if his luck is ta'veren, should his luck change on two occasions, neither related to any perceivable change in his status as a ta'veren, and why does he accept the two things as different, never linking them?

 

Now, let us look at the evidence in favour of ta'veren:

+A rumour, something people say about Hawkwing, a man 1,000 years dead

 

And the evidence against:

-The changes in luck do not relate to changes in his status as ta'veren

-He considers the two separate

-It behaves differently to ta'veren

 

And the evidence in favour of the dagger:

+The possibility is raised within the text itself, although Mat never confirms it as such and doesn't want to consider the posibility

+The timing fits for both increases in his luck

+The taint of SL, which is present in the dagger, is shown to be able to give powers

+Mat considers the luck separate from ta'veren

+There is no other theory with any evidence to support it

 

And the evidence against:

-Nothing.

 

So ta'veren has one in favour, 3 against, thus -2, while the dagger has 4 in favour, none againt, thus 4. So the balance of evidence strongly suggests the dagger. Thus it is the preferred theory.

[Alghar Khan]

So, it seems like Hawkwing wasn't lucky. And Mat wasn't always lucky, least of all in Emond's Field. Mat was wrong, and others were also wrong. Mat may have had a big "jump" when he picked up the dagger, so maybe he was misremembering when he thought "there were times in Fal Dara and with Hurin when six or eight tosses went my way". Maybe he counted completely wrong and/or his memory is completely worthless. Maybe he should have said "ten or twelve tosses", but just screwed up completely.

 

In short, maybe everything is just a big mistake?

[Durinax]

Suppression Theory:

+Mat's luck increased exponentially after final severing

+Mat's luck increased after Caemlyn after Moraine tried to heal and did something to try and contain the taint

+it makes sense since if you plug up a pipe pressure builds and once released you get a lot of stuff running through it (hmmm sounds like Mat in TV when he has crazy luck)

+we see nothing to say that mat gained luck between SL and Caemlyn

 

 

 

 

BTW wasn't fain said to have the DO's own luck before he got the dagger. Plus I do not think you can use Fain as a comparative model, too much has happened to him such as Mordeth, macha shin, and idk how about being 'filtered' by the DO?

[dholm]

That list is completely wrong.

 

Suppression theory:

-Mat's luck increased after picking up the dagger.

 

+Mat's luck increased after being severed from the dagger.

 

That's it. There's no other evidence either for or against. Your pipe analogy proves absolutely nothing. I could say exactly the same thing about a valve that's turned off and one that's turned on for full blast.

[Alghar Khan]

I wouldn't have found it peculiar that his luck increased (somewhat) at that time. We never got any description of his luck directly after he picked it up, so we don't know if he's mistaken (as he seems to be quite often).

[kamros]

He picked up the dagger, then a book later he started becoming lucky. doesn't really seem like it was a jump after he picked it up to me.

 

And the evidence in favour of the dagger:

+The possibility is raised within the text itself, although Mat never confirms it as such and doesn't want to consider the posibility

+The timing fits for both increases in his luck

+The taint of SL, which is present in the dagger, is shown to be able to give powers

+Mat considers the luck separate from ta'veren

+There is no other theory with any evidence to support it

 

And the evidence against:

-Nothing.

 

how is the lack of a theory evidence in favor of the dagger?

Him getting MUCH luckier after being healed of the dagger is not really helping the dagger theory.

The luck being separate from being ta'veren doesnt mean that it has to be the dagger. The opinion has been raised that the luck could be something that is specific for his character, like rand being able to channel, or perrin being a wolf brother.

 

so Evidence for the Dagger theory:

+ The possibility is raised within the text itself, although Mat never confirms it as such and doesn't want to consider the posibility

 

 

[Blackhoof]

well put, Kamros, well put...

 

You are comparing that with one single thought on something that might have happened, if he hasn't forgotten about something else.

So one single 1,000 year old rumour that has passed through any number of hands in a series in which rumours and stories about the distant past are so often shown to be unreliable is more reliable than one person thinking about something that actually happened to them with nothing at all to contradict it? When there is further evidence to support the dagger any way, even if we disregard his memories about when it started, so there is still nothing to support ta'veren.

 

RJ wouldn't have put it in as spoken by a main character unless it was relevant, and not just a random rumour. Are you pitting the word of a solid, reliable character to an amnesiac that is really only reasoning out what has happened?