Mat's Luck and Channeling

[Durinax]

the pattern could have predetermined that the band was needed, and it would need funding. . . see where this is going?

[Dracos]

And like I said before there is no times before SL (other than trolloc attacks) that Mat needed luck/that he could use his luck so he might not have noticed it before

Then why does he date it to that point?

 

Well... that could be because of the one thing that 100% cannot be debated as a result of the dagger... Mat has holes the size of the Choedan Kal in his memories. Could that be it?

 

He remembers going to SL. Then he remembers now. And he's lucky.

 

He remembers only bits and pieces and therefore, in retrospect, it seems as though he "suddenly" became lucky.

But we know it has been most of a year since they fled SL, if not a little longer. So, yes, Mat did think "Wow after I got the dagger I got luckier, and now that I've been healed I'm very lucky. So It must be that." But... really? If a character thinking something makes it fact... well... every time we got a new POV the entirety of the series would be rewritten because there are very, very, VERY few characters who don't make loud, ignorant assumptions in there heads every other paragraph. But, forgive me, I digress.

 

What I'm saying is simply put this: Mat is missing days and weeks at a time out of his memory so to him SL to being healed took a large amount of time less than it actually did. Saying months less might only be a gentle push beyond a safe estimation. Therefore his increases in luck appear to be very sudden to him. To the reader--who knows and understands that a fairly large amount of time has passed--it is not so sudden. The simply massive winnings he earned right after being healed can much better be explained as a wave of ta'veren chance twisting than the removal of the dagger.

 

Facts about beingta'veren do say that it can go up and down (a reference to Hawkwing was the first, I believe, later we see it with Rand. Meaning its impossible to predict what happens around him or when, but undeniably a ta'veren at work just the same.) With that in mind, Mat's luck was just stronger then than it had been the few days preceding his Healing.

 

You understand that don't you? I mean the standard Mr. Ares response is that I have no "proof" that what I'm saying makes you wrong, but, I honestly would have thought you would be on the other side of the argument so... *shrug*

 

Another point brought up (that I'll admit after writing the rest of this post I'm too lazy to go find and quote) was that Mat wasn't lucky before SL but he was ta'veren before that and the conclusion drawn was that luck could not be directly related to being ta'veren. I'll just go ahead and start of with you're response, Ares.

 

No, that makes no sense.

 

Then I'll elaborate... because by that logic entire villages getting married, people falling down stairs without disarranging their hair, people dying by completely random and minuscule acts of fate, and all those things attributed to Rand being in town. All that, by that logic, can't be because of him being ta'veren instead it was...something like him showing the Dragon Banner... Because after all, that stuff only started happening in tDR, after Falme when it was first shown to everyone and Rand ran away and it's happened more since the original banner has kind of disappeared. And nothing like mass-marriages happened in the Two Rivers, Baerlon, Fal Dara, etc. So it must have started later.

 

In all seriousness, if Mat's luck comming from the dagger is "proven" by 1) he didn't have extraordinary luck before SL  2) it has increased sometime after it was acquired  3) after being disconnected from the dagger (and some time has passed) his luck further increased

and 4) Mat thinks that the dagger must be the source then...

Rand's psycho-random-whatevers are proven by 1) nothing, for lack of a better term, "super-crazy" happening in tEoTW of tGH 2) after Falme (and the Dragon banner being used; which fyi is equivalent to the dagger being removed from SL, in this example) Rand runs and they track him by crazy stuff happening 3) since he's conquered many cities and they all fly Dragon banners who knows where the original is? Therefore Rand has been separated from it and now random crap happens all the time all across entire cities he's in even for a little while and 4) Well... Rand never makes that connection himself but he did go through somewhere near five books thinking that Egwene and Elayne were with "a few dozen Aes Sedai at most" when really it was hundreds. So. Main character thoughts are not equal to fact. And, ironically enough, that is a fact.

[OptimusPrime]

I understood, but my question was another LOL

The members of the Band are all the people Mat played with? It's said about some of them in the 5th book but then when is it said about it?

 

I dont know, I wasnt quoting the books.

[Alghar Khan]

Of course, that is sarcasm, not to be taken literal. The gist of it is the Pattern wont have made him win as many games as he did. UNLESS the Wheel decided there was something significant in every single one of those games, which is a stretch and then some.

No more of a stretch than Mat being lucky in EF or Hawkwing being lucky. We don't know the inner workings for these things. Neither does people in the the books. They don't know everything.

[OptimusPrime]

Of course, that is sarcasm, not to be taken literal. The gist of it is the Pattern wont have made him win as many games as he did. UNLESS the Wheel decided there was something significant in every single one of those games, which is a stretch and then some.

No more of a stretch than Mat being lucky in EF or Hawkwing being lucky.

 

So, the Pattern making Mat win pointless games of dice repeatedly for no reason is NOT more of a stretch than Mat having once been a normal guy with "good luck" in the normal everyday sense? Hawkwing was stronger Ta'veren than Mat and theres no reason to believe Artur Hawkwings luck was the same as Mats. Luck can mean different things, and people who dont know how Ta'veren works would put any sort of benefitting twist down to luck. Is Rand lucky because of all the strange things that happen around him? No, it is probability. There is a big difference.

 

 

We don't know the inner workings for these things.

 

Speak for yourself.

[dholm]

Hawkwing was a stronger ta'veren than Mat?

 

Back it up, please.

[Alghar Khan]

No more of a stretch than Mat being lucky in EF or Hawkwing being lucky.

So, the Pattern making Mat win pointless games of dice repeatedly for no reason is NOT more of a stretch than Mat having once been a normal guy with "good luck" in the normal everyday sense? Hawkwing was stronger Ta'veren than Mat and theres no reason to believe Artur Hawkwings luck was the same as Mats. Luck can mean different things, and people who dont know how Ta'veren works would put any sort of benefitting twist down to luck. Is Rand lucky because of all the strange things that happen around him? No, it is probability. There is a big difference.

"Pointless" is your say so. "Normal guy" is your say so. "In the normal everyday sense" is your say so. "Hawkwing stronger ta'veren" is your say so. Need I continue on this road, or what?

 

We don't know the inner workings for these things.

Speak for yourself.

I did speak for myself and everybody else who have seen the same information (as the one that has been published so far). What other information have you got? What are your sources? What is the information that you've managed to come by? Quotes?

[OptimusPrime]

The quote  from Mat has already been posted, Im not trolling about for stuff that people ignore. If I post it again you will just ignore it like you did the other times it was posted.

[Alghar Khan]

The quote  from Mat has already been posted, Im not trolling about for stuff that people ignore. If I post it again you will just ignore it like you did the other times it was posted.

Do you mean the one where he admittedly didn't know much of anything?

[Durinax]

uhm Mats quote has already been shot down as him making the dagger the scapegoat for his luck, which he later changes to the healing

[OptimusPrime]

He was trying to convince himself it wasnt the dagger.

 

We might as well agree to disagree people. Nobody's moving on this one and arguing isnt what were here for. Apologies to anyone offended.

[Thor]

Hawkwing was a stronger ta'veren than Mat?

 

Back it up, please.

 

hawkwing conquered the world, mat didn't.

 

mat's memories were full of defeats handed to him by hawkwing.

 

conclusion: hawkwing was a stronger ta'veren than mat.

[a pale tanned lover]

Hawkwing was a stronger ta'veren than Mat?

 

Back it up, please.

 

hawkwing conquered the world, mat didn't.

 

mat's memories were full of defeats handed to him by hawkwing.

 

conclusion: hawkwing was a stronger ta'veren than mat.

 

Agreed, out of Rand,Mat and Perrin the only one who had been compared to maybe being as strong as Hawkwing was Rand.

[CTM]

Hawkwing was a stronger ta'veren than Mat?

 

Back it up, please.

 

hawkwing conquered the world, mat didn't.

 

mat's memories were full of defeats handed to him by hawkwing.

 

conclusion: hawkwing was a stronger ta'veren than mat.

 

It has been hinted that certain books that may never be released might have plots that could involve someone conquering places on a scale similar to Hawkwing. Consider that Hawkwing had a lifetime and that Mat is still working on it after only a few years. Mats memories weren't filled with any defeats handed to him by anyone.

 

I agree with a pale tanned lover.

 

 

. . .

 

After rereading the Matt quote and the chapter it is in, I am moving slightly. I believe that the dagger had at least a temporary effect on Mats luck. I still think that being Ta'veren  has played a large part in his luck, as it is clearly indicated that ta'veren can alter coin toss outcomes(by Julen and Rand/Mats experiences). Rereading the chapter where Mat is gambling in Tar Valon, there seems to be hints that he wasn't completely healed from the taint of Mordeth. Nothing solid but he discribes the situation as feverish, and unexpectedly gets angry at being compared to the darkone (darkones own luck). It is strange because I don't remember any hints since then. 

 

from this I build my almost completely unfounded theory that the reason that Mat had a surge in luck after being healed was that: 1. he was still carrying some of the taint of Mordeth (an equal yet opposite luck  from the darkone)2. the pattern had great need for him to get out of Tar Valon.

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

Maybe the fact that Mat is Ta'veren caused him to be left with something, the luck, after being Healed. There are several negative things that happen to Rand that benefit him in the long run, like him just happening to be stabbed by Fain in the same place Ishamael did, by an evil that just happens to supress and by supressed by Ishamaels wound... coincedence? Or Ta'veren?

[dholm]

Hawkwing was a stronger ta'veren than Mat?

 

Back it up, please.

 

hawkwing conquered the world, mat didn't.

 

mat's memories were full of defeats handed to him by hawkwing.

 

conclusion: hawkwing was a stronger ta'veren than mat.

 

That proves absolutely nothing. First, who says a ta'veren has to conquer the world? Secondly, Rand is in the middle of doing that, and he's definitely a stronger ta'veren than Mat. Thirdly, Hawkwing spent his entire life building his empire. Mat has been ta'veren for two years.

 

As for the second part, Mat's memories of Artur Hawkwing aren't his own. They have nothing to do with how strong ta'veren Mat is.

 

We do not know whether Mat (and Perrin, for that matter) are stronger or weaker ta'veren than Hawkwing. Any claim in that regard is pure speculation -- unless you have an RJ quote I don't know about.

 

The comparison between Rand and Hawkwing said that Hawkwing was in no way as strong a ta'veren as Rand. Neither are Mat or Perrin, obviously, but that still proves absolutely nothing with regards to a comparison between them and Hawkwing.

[Mr Ares]

Quote from the Glossary: Ta'veren: A person around whom the wheel of time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads.

Relevance: nil.

 

Maybe the Glossary should have included-unless they find a magical dagger that provides luck stronger then the wheel of time which over-rides being ta'veren.

Why?

 

Mat was lucky before the Dagger.

Then he got luckier when he picked it up. Address that point, for once. Stop avoiding it.

Yeah, and he got even luckier later on. The Dagger reduced his luck during the rest of the time.

So it reduced his luck by making him luckier than he was before he picked it up? That makes no sense. His luck improved after he found it, it didn't get worse. How was it holding it back? Try and find one piece of evidence indicating his luck was suppressed. I've asked for it, but you have yet to provide. Maybe because it doesn't exist. Find it or drop the suppresses luck line.

 

If he became lucky before the Dagger

He didn't. He started off lucky, then he got luckier when he picked it up. There was no preceding jump in luck, just what he was born with.

He did. He was lucky in EF. He became ta’veren in EF.

He was lucky before he was ta'veren. He is, after all, remembered as the lucky one, and he wasn't ta'veren for long before the start of the series. So we have no jump in luck corresponding to his becoming ta'veren.

 

We don't know that it remained constant.

Yes, we do.

It isn’t so just because you say it.

No, it is so because the books say it.

 

Or it could indicate that the Dagger suppressed his luck.

He got luckier right after he picked it up.

Really?

Yes, really.

(The Dagger suppressed his luck, and you answer this with “he got luckier after he picked it up”?)

The dagger did not suppress his luck. Why do you insist on saying that when there is nothing to support it, and the fact the he got luckier right after he picked it up contradicts it?

 

i think the being ta'veren "helped" him to find the dagger that increased his luck.

Why bring ta'veren into it at all? It's not necessary.

 

And about the luck, you said first he was lucky before and the he got luckierafter and then u said he wasn't lucky before, what d u mean exactly?

He started of with his normal, natural luck. Then he gained supernatural luck from the dagger. So he did gain his luck from there, and he got luckier.

 

It's possible that the dagger suppressed his luck for some reason

Although unsupported and it contradicts the text.

 

i still think of him as naturally lucky person that got a boost from taveren

You're still wrong.

that whole paragraph when he states  his luck came from the dagger in SL is a whole self delusional rambling for justification , he starts "he was lucky. he could remember always being lucky." but than he focuses on the times he was unlucky looking for justification

And he doesn't claim it was the dagger as a justification - indeed, quite the reverse, he doesn't want to consider that that might be the case.

 

that is as we know a false statement

No, it isn't. Distinguish between natural and supernatural luck. He was born with one, gained the other from the dagger.

wait no it was bela's fault

You're just not a fan of your lower extremities, are you?

 

he sounds alot like a rookie cop in his first shooting trying to justify shooting someone w/ a cell phone in his hand

Yes, anything rather than admit it was the dagger.

 

so there is no proof he got luckier when he picked up the dagger

Except for him saying he did, in the quote you posted.

there is no proof that the dagger caused his luck

Except the timing doesn't match anything else, nor does how the luck manifests, or the dice.

because the only proof is self delusional statements

About it not being the dagger. So if his statements about it not being the dagger are self-delusion...then he knows that it was the dagger.

 

Well... that could be because of the one thing that 100% cannot be debated as a result of the dagger... Mat has holes the size of the Choedan Kal in his memories. Could that be it?

No. Because an inability to remeber would make him less able to precisely date it, not more so. After all, he doesn't want it to be the dagger, so if he could pass it off as something that happened during the time he had lost, why wouldn't he? It's almost like the author is trying to tell us something...And let us not forget that the holes in his memories only started appearing after he blew the Horn, and after he became ta'veren. Surely one of those must have been responsible? Any statements to the contrary must be self-delusion, of course. So, the Horn is responsible fore the holes.

 

there are very few characters who don't make loud, ignorant assumptions in there heads

Mat doesn't in this instance. He notes the timing. That's not an assumption.

 

Therefore his increases in luck appear to be very sudden to him.

They are. His luck remains constant from the gambling we see in Shienar, on the road to Tar Valon, up until his Healing. Even when there is nothing at stake, he still wins.

The simply massive winnings he earned right after being healed can much better be explained as a wave of ta'veren chance twisting than the removal of the dagger.

And the times he wins when no money is on the line? Ta'veren might be a better explanation if that wasn't the case.

 

I honestly would have thought you would be on the other side of the argument

The fact that I'm not indicates your side does not have a compelling case. If it's clear cut, I'm on the side with the facts. If it isn't, there's a good chance I'm on the fence. You have nothing to support your case. Nothing at all. I have evidence to support mine. Therefore my case is better. If you were reasonable, you would agree with me.

 

No, that makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense. The timing doesn't fit for ta'veren. In you highly illogical counter, there is nothing to indicate that that piece of cloth has any power. Ta'veren is known to have that power. Mat's luck does not always behave as ta'veren does - it is always in his favour, does not affect random bystanders, does not affect matters of concious choice, only random things. Neither the timing nor the behaviour fits. In your counter, the timing might be said to fit for the banner, but the behaviour doesn't. It does for ta'veren. So it would be stupid to look for a new answer when ta'veren is correct, and it Mat's case it would be wrong to attribute it to ta'veren when it doesn't fit. So the Dragon Banner is a terrible example. Full of holes. Unlike the dagger theory, which has fewer than any other theory put forward.

 

4) Mat thinks that the dagger must be the source then...

No, he doesn't. Quite the reverse. He questions whether it was, and blames other things rather than the dagger. But the timing doesn't fit for them.

 

uhm Mats quote has already been shot down as him making the dagger the scapegoat for his luck, which he later changes to the healing

Uhm, actually Mat making the dagger the sscapegoat for his luck was shot down. He didn't. He would rather it was something else.

 

Hawkwing was a stronger ta'veren than Mat?

 

Back it up, please.

 

hawkwing conquered the world, mat didn't.

 

mat's memories were full of defeats handed to him by hawkwing.

 

conclusion: hawkwing was a stronger ta'veren than mat.

And thus ends Thor's latest lesson in "how not to do logic".

[Thor]

suit yourself whichever way.

 

if mat was such a strong ta'veren, he would have hawkwing's memories of battle rather than those who got defeated by hawkwing.

[Durinax]

suit yourself whichever way.

 

if mat was such a strong ta'veren, he would have hawkwing's memories of battle rather than those who got defeated by hawkwing.

mat's memories have nothign to do with being taveren. . . no other taveren referred to or known of has the memories of others, and the only other thing that it could be is from the Ael/eelfinn since he made a vague reference to knowledge they gave it too him but made him pay for it

[Thor]

if he wasn't taveren, he wouldn't have received memories that would help him fight the shadow.  his memories has everything to do with him being ta'veren.

[dholm]

Certainly, the fact that he received the memories at all is due to him being ta'veren -- but that has absolutely no bearing on what memories he got. He got the memories of people who traveled through the doorway ter'angreal or through the Tower of Ghenjei. For Mat to receive Artur Hawkwing's memories, he would have had to do so. The High King most likely didn't -- he had no need.

[Mr Ares]

suit yourself whichever way.

 

if mat was such a strong ta'veren, he would have hawkwing's memories of battle rather than those who got defeated by hawkwing.

Mat's memories are from people who went through the Tower or the Doorways. If Hawkwing didn't, then he couldn't get his memories no matter how strong a ta'veren he was. Ta'veren has nothing to do with whose memories he got. Who went to see the Finns is important.

[Alghar Khan]

Yeah, and he got even luckier later on. The Dagger reduced his luck during the rest of the time.

So it reduced his luck by making him luckier than he was before he picked it up? That makes no sense. His luck improved after he found it, it didn't get worse. How was it holding it back? Try and find one piece of evidence indicating his luck was suppressed. I've asked for it, but you have yet to provide. Maybe because it doesn't exist. Find it or drop the suppresses luck line.

As I have already said, we don’t know that it made him luckier. I haven’t yet to provide anything. If you’re right (he really got a jump in luck from being healed from the Dagger), then the Dagger obviously suppressed his luck. I’ve already “provided” that.

 

He was lucky before he was ta'veren. He is, after all, remembered as the lucky one, and he wasn't ta'veren for long before the start of the series. So we have no jump in luck corresponding to his becoming ta'veren.

That’s all your say so. Hawkwing was lucky as well. He was ta’veren. He had ta’veren-luck.

 

We don't know that it remained constant.

Yes, we do.

It isn’t so just because you say it.

No, it is so because the books say it.

All the books say is that he was dying even before blowing the Horn. He has huge gaps in his memories. And he doesn’t know what caused his luck.

 

The dagger did not suppress his luck. Why do you insist on saying that when there is nothing to support it, and the fact the he got luckier right after he picked it up contradicts it?

I’ve already answered that several times.

 

[kamros]

The dagger did not suppress his luck. Why do you insist on saying that when there is nothing to support it, and the fact the he got luckier right after he picked it up contradicts it?

 

How is it that he had a second jump in luck after being healed of the dagger? it seems that that would definitely support that the dagger suppressed mats luck.

 

also, did he really get lucky right after picking it up? i don't really remember exactly when it happened but i seem to remember it being a while later? im prly wrong though  /shrug

[Durinax]

it seems to me that the first jump in luck was when moraine tried to seal the evil in Caemlyn and the second was in Fal Dara, followed once again by the major spike of luck when the link was severed