Does anyone else loathe the Aiel?

[Braus]

Also that scenario would imply that if you had 100 men fighting 100 other men, and they are all trained as well. You will end up with almost everyone dead <.< Instead the generals leads their troups and ultimately when it comes to greater numbers, depending on how they deploy their forces and what kind of advantages they have, decides big parts of the fight.

[Mr Ares]

1. Countless mentionings about the Aiel war

Given that we lack the precise details of the Aiel War, and the exact tactics and campaigns of those who fought, we cannot reaaly say this is superhuman. They had a lot of success, undoubtedly, but we cannot say it is beyond the bounds of possibility.

2. After the Trollock wars, the Waste is called "the Dying Grounds" by Trollocs and Myrdraal, despite ravaging the wetlands - at the height of their military might (Mantheren and all those other nations).

Fighting in a desert is a bit different to fighting in the terrain you'd find in the Westlands. Quite plausible they could do it.

3. Gaul and Perrin beating ten Whitecloaks.

Difficult, but doable.

4. 100 odd Aiel taking the Stone of Tear. Even Birgitte, Faith of the Light, Silverbow, wouldn't try to sneak into the Stone, save for Gaidal.

They sneaked in, under cover of darkness, when there wasn't any specific lookout kept, and took the garrison unawares. Not superhuman.

5. The Shaido nearly scaling the walls of Cairhien three times, without ladders or other equipment.

Yet, as we've already seen, the Aiel are good climbers. And, as you point out, nearly. Hardly an example of being superhuman. "Some good climbers failed to climb something."

6. Kinda flimsy, but but the way they are described.

Not really an example of them being superhuman, so much as giving the impression of them as near superhuman.

 

I, like Braus, would very much like to see specific examples of the Aiel doing superhuman things, things that need a magical explanation. So far, we've not seen anything like that. Good try, elmis, but I'm not buying it. These things might be difficult, but they are possible.

[Hybrid]

As to the comparison with the Swedish Guards, the Defenders of the Stone are referred to as Tear's elite fighting force - their standing army so to speak (much like the Companions in Illian - where Tam got his training, and he seems to be a very capable soldier).

Re: The Stone of Tear

As many people pointed out, the Stone was taken in the middle of the night, when the defenders were not even expecting a battle.  Instead of breaking down the gates and attempting to flood into the Stone by force of numbers, the Aiel climbed above the preliminary defenses and quite literally caught the Defenders with their pants down.  Also note that Rand's description of the Stone is that it is designed to hold every single corridor and stairwell against an enemy attempting to take it from the ground up, but it says nothing about stopping a small force of elite warriors who enter from the top.  I think in this case the smaller number and greater agility of the Aiel gave them an easy victory, because they were able to move quickly from room to room, corridor to corridor, before defenses were in place.

[Braus]

As to the comparison with the Swedish Guards, the Defenders of the Stone are referred to as Tear's elite fighting force - their standing army so to speak (much like the Companions in Illian - where Tam got his training, and he seems to be a very capable soldier).

Re: The Stone of Tear

As many people pointed out, the Stone was taken in the middle of the night, when the defenders were not even expecting a battle.  Instead of breaking down the gates and attempting to flood into the Stone by force of numbers, the Aiel climbed above the preliminary defenses and quite literally caught the Defenders with their pants down.  Also note that Rand's description of the Stone is that it is designed to hold every single corridor and stairwell against an enemy attempting to take it from the ground up, but it says nothing about stopping a small force of elite warriors who enter from the top.  I think in this case the smaller number and greater agility of the Aiel gave them an easy victory, because they were able to move quickly from room to room, corridor to corridor, before defenses were in place.

 

 

and and and... wait for it

 

 

 

 

 

NO CAVALERY! :)

[Miltiades]

Not really an example of them being superhuman, so much as giving the impression of them as near superhuman.

 

I, like Braus, would very much like to see specific examples of the Aiel doing superhuman things, things that need a magical explanation. So far, we've not seen anything like that. Good try, elmis, but I'm not buying it. These things might be difficult, but they are possible.

 

Ok Mr Ares. I will accept that no single Aiel does something completely out of the realms of possibility for a human being. We don't see them fly or anything like that. However, the average Aiel regularly performs feats that should be legendary. Gaul for instance, went into that fight with the whitecloaks knowing he was going to win, as others keep pointing out, Aiel know when to back off. He was confident in his ability to thrash 10 fully armed and armoured professional soldiers with his bare hands after a day of privation. And from the interactions he has with other Aiel, Bain and Chiad for example, it doesnt seem like he is considered an especially exceptional warrior among the Aiel.

 

We're told that before this encounter Gaul and another Aiel decimated a group of a dozen soldiers, including two hunters for the horn, even though it was the Aiel who were surprised. When asked about it Gaul laughs and explains how they got surprised. The implication clearly being that had they been ready the Aiel would have mashed the other party and got away unscathed as is the usual pattern.

 

You say its difficult, but the Aiel don't seem to think so. It's just another day's work; casually annihilate a vastly numerically superior force of much better equipped troops.

 

A race of people from which the average member is capable of doing things like this and it not being a massive deal is clearly superior to the species of which you and I are members.

 

 

[Miltiades]

Secondly, I have a great deal of trouble seeing how the Aiel could manage to successfully and consistently be able to stand up to a heavy cavalry charge.

 

*Sigh...*  Because they don't even try to "stand up to a heavy cavalry charge."  Their mobility allows them to avoid the brunt of the charge altogether.  They may take casualties, but it won't be anything compared to what another infantry unit would take if they attempted to "stand up to a heavy cavalry charge."

 

As has been stated several times in this thread by myself and many others, the Aiel don't press battle when the conditions don't favor them, unless they have no alternative.  They've got the best recon, they're as mobile as light cavalry (perhaps more so, since they're less impeded by terrain), they can double as artillery, so, unless you can out-maneuver them they're not gonna offer battle if the conditions are unfavorable.  They're gonna redeploy and get you when the ground favors them and/or when you least expect it.

 

Battle is not always (and as a matter of fact rarely is) the neat little lines of troops firing at or fighting one another across an open field on a clear day.  That 'senario' is a Hollywood story.

 

 

Your mobility doesnt mean shit against a horse. Not in the context of a battle.

 

The max speed for a horse is about 30-35 miles per hour . They can maintain this for maybe a mile or so. But we'll take that down to 25-30 as it has to carry a man.

 

The record for a human being is 22 miles per hour. Now this was in a 100 meter sprint but since all Aiel are superhuman gods we'll assume that not only is each of them as fast as the fastest human ever but they can maintain such a speed over the same mile even carrying the usual three spears, shield, bow and quiver full of arrows.

 

The point is, if you are light infantry there is no escape from cavalry. Your mobility doesnt mean anything because the horse is simply faster. If you try to get away you'll be run down.

 

As balefired said, skirmishing infantry get annihilated if they allow cavalry to close with them. No ifs, no buts, they just run right over you. As I've pointed out numerous times, even back when cavalry was fairly useless, before the invention of the stirrup and the adoption of lances for head on charges cavalry STILL owned light infantry. There's just nothing you can do, you can't get away, you can't hold your ground, you die to a man.

 

 

 

 

[Braus]

Correction really... since you assume they are superhumnanherogods.

 

 

If Gaul isnt a exceptional fighter, name me one. You got anything to prove that he isnt a good fighter. Everything ive seen from him in the books this far have been very good, he seems very reliable and would proberly fit right in amongst the clan chiefs like one wise ones seems to want him to later.

Why would Gaul run away? Hes not stupid, he knew what was coming. There is a big difference between running away because of fear, or running away because its smarter. Maybe if he had known that the whitecloaks was incoming, he would had run away if he had a chance, but why would he run away when they were almost upon him? he would had just died, compared to staying and fighting.

WOT is in one aspect not like all the other books. You got so many POV and still its not only the "heroes" who are able to fight or are the best etc.

 

About running Aiel and horse, at least ive never talked about Aiel running faster than horses. What ive talked about at least, is that Aiel isnt a stationary Infantery, they are on the move all the time. And no they dont need to run 22 miles per hour or however much that translated into km/h. I doubt sending in heavy cavalry on Aiel will be enough to win, they wont just stand and let themselves be cut down. Especially not in tight formations as far as my memory serves from the books.

Besides tell me where all these hundreds of thousands of heavy cavalry is in the books, sure the Shienar seems to be using cavalry and a few other nations like Ghealdan etc, but its abit far stretch to base your whole arguement on why Aiel are overpowered, on the fact that they dont use any horse compared to the wetlanders.

[Miltiades]

Correction really... since you assume they are superhumnanherogods.

 

 

If Gaul isnt a exceptional fighter, name me one. You got anything to prove that he isnt a good fighter. Everything ive seen from him in the books this far have been very good, he seems very reliable and would proberly fit right in amongst the clan chiefs like one wise ones seems to want him to later.

Why would Gaul run away? Hes not stupid, he knew what was coming. There is a big difference between running away because of fear, or running away because its smarter. Maybe if he had known that the whitecloaks was incoming, he would had run away if he had a chance, but why would he run away when they were almost upon him? he would had just died, compared to staying and fighting.

WOT is in one aspect not like all the other books. You got so many POV and still its not only the "heroes" who are able to fight or are the best etc.

 

About running Aiel and horse, at least ive never talked about Aiel running faster than horses. What ive talked about at least, is that Aiel isnt a stationary Infantery, they are on the move all the time. And no they dont need to run 22 miles per hour or however much that translated into km/h. I doubt sending in heavy cavalry on Aiel will be enough to win, they wont just stand and let themselves be cut down. Especially not in tight formations as far as my memory serves from the books.

Besides tell me where all these hundreds of thousands of heavy cavalry is in the books, sure the Shienar seems to be using cavalry and a few other nations like Ghealdan etc, but its abit far stretch to base your whole arguement on why Aiel are overpowered, on the fact that they dont use any horse compared to the wetlanders.

 

I didn't mean Gaul was not an exceptional fighter, I meant not for an Aiel. Never is he hailed as being one of the Aiel's great heroes, it seems he's just the run of the mill Aiel (which means he's roughly as good as the 5 or 10 best fighters in the entire wetlands). My point was that all the Aiel seem able to do things like that, it just isnt a big deal.

 

Also, if you read the section again Gaul stands still to veil himself like he has all the time in the world. And we're always told about how the Aiel can outrun anybody. Gaul could easily have fled from 10 whitecloaks wearing mail armour and carrying weapons. He chose not to because he knew he could own them no problem. No matter how good you are, taking on 10 heavily armed and armoured professional soldiers with your bare hands is a losing proposition. Yes it could be done, in theory, it is not impossible, but from the description we get Gaul was always going to win, it wasn't even difficult.

 

 

Also, why do you ''doubt'' that sending in heavy cavalry against Aiel will not be enough to win? What do you base that on? When skirmishing troops like Aiel get charged by cavalry they get butchered, that's what happens. They are cavalry's preferred target precisely because they fight in loose order and can be ridden over with very little difficulty. You can't get away, if you try to run the cavalry will just catch up and cut you down to a man, it's hold your ground or die. As you pointed out the Aiel don't fight in formation which is the only way of resisting a cavalry charge for infantry. So if you turn and fight you die and if you run you die. The only way to avoid death is to avoid the cavalry. If they're charging you, kiss your ass goodbye.

[Swigaro]

 

I didn't mean Gaul was not an exceptional fighter, I meant not for an Aiel. Never is he hailed as being one of the Aiel's great heroes, it seems he's just the run of the mill Aiel (which means he's roughly as good as the 5 or 10 best fighters in the entire wetlands). My point was that all the Aiel seem able to do things like that, it just isnt a big deal.

 

 

Quite the opposite.  We are told that Gaul is basically next in line to be sent to Rhuidian to become Clan Chief.  I would say this puts him pretty high up on the list of exceptional fighters. 

 

The fact is, Aiel would not be decimated by a heavy cavalry charge, because, they would never put themselves in a position where a heavy cavalry would have the opportunity to charge.  The Aiel are very difficult to surprise.  If they were engaging an enemy who were using heavy cavalry, they would make sure that the charge were not an option before they engaged. 

 

[Miltiades]

 

I didn't mean Gaul was not an exceptional fighter, I meant not for an Aiel. Never is he hailed as being one of the Aiel's great heroes, it seems he's just the run of the mill Aiel (which means he's roughly as good as the 5 or 10 best fighters in the entire wetlands). My point was that all the Aiel seem able to do things like that, it just isnt a big deal.

 

 

Quite the opposite.  We are told that Gaul is basically next in line to be sent to Rhuidian to become Clan Chief.  I would say this puts him pretty high up on the list of exceptional fighters. 

 

 

 

It isn't just the biggest baddest Aielman who goes to Rhuidean, if it was the Aiel wouldn't be as well led as they are. Also, it isn't ever really intimated that the Chiefs are particularly more individually skilled than are other Aiel.

 

The fact is, Aiel would not be decimated by a heavy cavalry charge, because, they would never put themselves in a position where a heavy cavalry would have the opportunity to charge.  The Aiel are very difficult to surprise.  If they were engaging an enemy who were using heavy cavalry, they would make sure that the charge were not an option before they engaged.

 

Really? What's all this nonsense Lan is spouting then about a charge from Aiel Redshields or Stone Dogs being impossible to stop? Seems pretty easy to stop to me. Just counter charge with some heavy cavalry, and mow them down. If they're charging you surely you can charge them.

 

Everyone is making out that the Aiel slink around and use expert tactics and guile to counter the wetlander's advantages. But we don't see this in the books, they just walk around kicking a whole lot of ass. It has nothing to do with them avoiding bad situations and everything to do with them being portrayed as so unbelievably badass that they own everyone else unless their enemies have an 'I win' factor present (Asha'man, Mat's luck/battle knowledge etc).

 

[Mutsumi]

About ths speed difference between aiel and horsies. They don't have to run faster than the fastest horse in optimum conditions. All they have to do is slink back ahead of them (remember they don't start from melee contact with the horses) long anough for the cavalry to get flanked and bogged down. Remember a properly formed up cavalry formation isn't exactly fast in changing directions at speed, so flanking would not be hard. And the cavvies aren't exactly going to make optimum speed when their horses are being shot down from under them, especially if they try to retain some cohesion in their charging formation without which they're pretty much toast against numerically superior, more agile and both bow and throwing weapon wielding expert soldiers.

 

None of this even takes into consideration that even though the aiel prefer not to fight in formation, that they can easily form one to soak up the damage from the charge if necessary. And remember these aren't exactly the barded, lance wielding knights in shining armor type cavalry, so they could be fairly reliably stopped without the use of pikes with propably reasonable death ratio on collision, especially considering the cavalry is heavily outmanned, and most likely with heavy casualties from shooting and throwing spears to boot. Now I'm not saying there wouldn't be losses, but it's not quite as one sided as you assume. And I still think they won't even be able to properly connect a charge in the first place if the aiel do their job properly.

 

And about the stonedog charge thing, the point most likely is that there would be a reaction time, time to relay orders, after which the cavalry would need to form up for the charge and after that they need to gain proper momentum, which doesn't happen in an instant. By this time the aiel should have long since connected, so it isn't "just counter charge them".

[Miltiades]

About ths speed difference between aiel and horsies. They don't have to run faster than the fastest horse in optimum conditions. All they have to do is slink back ahead of them (remember they don't start from melee contact with the horses) long anough for the cavalry to get flanked and bogged down. Remember a properly formed up cavalry formation isn't exactly fast in changing directions at speed, so flanking would not be hard. And the cavvies aren't exactly going to make optimum speed when their horses are being shot down from under them, especially if they try to retain some cohesion in their charging formation without which they're pretty much toast against numerically superior, more agile and both bow and throwing weapon wielding expert soldiers.

 

None of this even takes into consideration that even though the aiel prefer not to fight in formation, that they can easily form one to soak up the damage from the charge if necessary. And remember these aren't exactly the barded, lance wielding knights in shining armor type cavalry, so they could be fairly reliably stopped without the use of pikes with propably reasonable death ratio on collision, especially considering the cavalry is heavily outmanned, and most likely with heavy casualties from shooting and throwing spears to boot. Now I'm not saying there wouldn't be losses, but it's not quite as one sided as you assume. And I still think they won't even be able to properly connect a charge in the first place if the aiel do their job properly.

 

And about the stonedog charge thing, the point most likely is that there would be a reaction time, time to relay orders, after which the cavalry would need to form up for the charge and after that they need to gain proper momentum, which doesn't happen in an instant. By this time the aiel should have long since connected, so it isn't "just counter charge them".

 

That just might be possible, if we accept the superhuman qualities of speed I gave the Aiel when I compared them to horses. Even so, if you flank the cavalry only the wings will get bogged down, the center will carry on, it is hard to stop a cavalry charge once its begun even if you want to. So you'll basically just have to sacrifice those men you use to bait them in, they'll never be able to turn and fight effectively and will be wiped out. Assuming the tactic of ''charge the biggest lot of guys they've got'' from the cavalry that's going to be a lot of men you'll lose. But anyway as I said, that is IF we accept that each Aiel can run as fast as the world record holder, carrying equipment, and over a longer distance. Otherwise a cavalry charge will be on top of them before they can do much.

 

Also, if you tried to put Aiel in a formation they'd lose most of the advantages they have, and with such a lightly armed soldier, the casualties you'd have to sustain in absorbing a cavalry charge would be simply unacceptable, not to mention what enemy shooting would do to you.

 

I think people are also acting like it's easy to simply eliminate your enemy's cavalry or avoid them. It is actually extremely difficult to stop part of your enemy's from engaging. It isn't something you can consistently do, just saying the Aiel are good at scouting and camouflage doesnt mean they can avoid a charge from heavy cavalry every battle. Again, to accept that they do manage this is to assume they are far better than any group of people who has ever existed and can manage extremely difficult feats as a matter of course. That is to say that they are more than human.

[Mutsumi]

And you're assuming the cavalry would travel at the speed of the best horses, while in actual fact they would have to pace themsleves with the slowest horses in the formation while also avoiding any difficult terrain and their dead comrades, while the aiel would be able to move allmost unhindered. Not to mention that the horses would not be able to maintain a full charge for long, losing momentum very fast while it's allready been astablished that the aiel would win in endurance.

 

You only get part of the flankS if you assume relative numerical equality, but that would most likely not be the case. And it isn't very likely the rest of the cavalry would suicide charge the enemies in front while half of their numbers (conservatively) would either be dead or in the process of dying. Once the cavalry starts to lose it's momentum, it's power rapidly diminishes and won't only not be a good counter but would become easy pickings. And that's assuming the cavalry doesn't get tied down before it even gets to charge.

 

As for the formation, they wouldn't stay in the formation long enough to lose their advantages and it wouldn't be the whole aiel army just part of it. And which do you think is in more danger from shooting, the aiel at long to out of range, or the unbarded cavvies at short range?

 

Stopping a cavalry charge isn't easy by any means, I'm not suggesting that, but neither is the charge even close to as devastating or easy to pull off as you seem to assume. Using real life as an example is not a very good comparison, seeing that there really isn't a very good equivalent to the aiel, and most of the time when the glorious light skirmish slaughter by cav's happened, it was against peasants, fleeing or throwaway units, archers or numerically equal to less forces that most of the time had no real grasp of strategy, morale, skill or ability to work as a unit. It's one thing to ride down peasant, but don't try to equalize the situation with what would happen with aiel.

[Jillain Sanche]

I'm on book 6 in my second read through of the series and I realized that I absolutely hate the Aiel.

 

I find it fairly infuriating how Jordan bangs on constantly about how tough the Aiel are. Them and the Asha'man really. But I can accept that the Asha'man are as powerful as he says they are because their power comes from channeling and Jordan decides all the the powers and limits of channeling, so the Asha'man are as badass as he wants them to be.

 

I think in my first read through I was on book 3 or 4 before I realized the Aiel were meant to be humans. Until then I thought they were a separate species like the Ogier.

 

Does anybody else feel this way? Or am I just a racist?

 

You have by now fully convinced me that you are indeed at least prejudiced against the Aiel. As I said in my first post (page one of the thread?), if you suspect that you harbor such hatred toward one of the main nationalities of humans in Randland then perhaps you should examine what it is truly about.

For as many others have so patiently pointed out, your military arguments are full of holes.

 

I suspect you are what folks call an "armchair general" and although there are among the members who refuted your arguments actual retired military personnel, you convince yourself that you know more than they or Robert Jordan himself (who attended the Citadel).

 

[Miltiades]

And you're assuming the cavalry would travel at the speed of the best horses, while in actual fact they would have to pace themsleves with the slowest horses in the formation while also avoiding any difficult terrain and their dead comrades, while the aiel would be able to move allmost unhindered. Not to mention that the horses would not be able to maintain a full charge for long, losing momentum very fast while it's allready been astablished that the aiel would win in endurance.

 

You only get part of the flankS if you assume relative numerical equality, but that would most likely not be the case. And it isn't very likely the rest of the cavalry would suicide charge the enemies in front while half of their numbers (conservatively) would either be dead or in the process of dying. Once the cavalry starts to lose it's momentum, it's power rapidly diminishes and won't only not be a good counter but would become easy pickings. And that's assuming the cavalry doesn't get tied down before it even gets to charge.

 

As for the formation, they wouldn't stay in the formation long enough to lose their advantages and it wouldn't be the whole aiel army just part of it. And which do you think is in more danger from shooting, the aiel at long to out of range, or the unbarded cavvies at short range?

 

Stopping a cavalry charge isn't easy by any means, I'm not suggesting that, but neither is the charge even close to as devastating or easy to pull off as you seem to assume. Using real life as an example is not a very good comparison, seeing that there really isn't a very good equivalent to the aiel, and most of the time when the glorious light skirmish slaughter by cav's happened, it was against peasants, fleeing or throwaway units, archers or numerically equal to less forces that most of the time had no real grasp of strategy, morale, skill or ability to work as a unit. It's one thing to ride down peasant, but don't try to equalize the situation with what would happen with aiel.

 

Not really, the best horses can reach 45-50 miles per hour, and it seems clear that most wetland nations know a fair bit about horse breeding so its not unreasonable to assume they'd have at least good quality horses if not superb.

 

Also, it's not a matter of numerical advantage with the flank, it's that there just wont be that much frontage to attack, because you have to make sure you aren't in front of them and they'll be moving very fast. Sort of like when shooting at a target moving perpendicular to you. If you try to lap round the back they'll speed ahead of you and if you try to gain more frontage by attacking the front you'll have to take some of the charge. If you stop to shoot you aren't running and so the charge will crash home. And the cavalry in the middle would keep going, it would be unlikely they would even notice that their comrades on the wings were becoming bogged down until after the melee began.

 

And the reason there are no real life examples to choose from is because we only have human beings to work with here out in the real world. We don't have demi-gods which is why nobody compares to the Aiel.

 

 

[Vambram]

Comparing the Aiel to demi-gods is one of the funniest comparisons I have seen in a long time on dragonmount.

[dholm]

Your mobility doesnt mean shit against a horse. Not in the context of a battle.

 

The max speed for a horse is about 30-35 miles per hour . They can maintain this for maybe a mile or so. But we'll take that down to 25-30 as it has to carry a man.

 

The record for a human being is 22 miles per hour. Now this was in a 100 meter sprint but since all Aiel are superhuman gods we'll assume that not only is each of them as fast as the fastest human ever but they can maintain such a speed over the same mile even carrying the usual three spears, shield, bow and quiver full of arrows.

The maximum human speed currently recorded is 29.8 MPH, set by Asafa Powell during a 100 meter foot race. (His average speed for that run was 22.95 MPH, due to the need for acceleration.) I'll assume this is what you were referring to.

 

Humans are generally not capable of outrunning a horse over short distances, mainly because they simply aren't fast enough. They CAN, however, outrun horses over longer distances -- because a human's endurance is greater than a horse's, when you compare their endurance-to-body-mass ratio. The Zulu warriors the Aiel are modeled over demonstrated this. They could travel upwards of 50 miles per day on a forced march. To put that in reference, I'll quote Mat:

Mat ignored him. “I want to make thirty-five miles today. When we can do thirty-five every day, we’ll see how far we can push it.” They gaped at him, of course. Horses could not maintain that pace very long, and anybody but Aiel considered twenty-five miles an excellent day’s march for foot. But he had to play this out the way it had been dealt. “Comadrin wrote, ‘Attack on ground where your enemy believes you will not, from an unexpected direction at an unexpected time. Defend where your enemy believes you are not, and when he believes you will run. Surprise is the key to victory, and speed is the key to surprise. For the soldier, speed is life.’ ”

 

As for mobility... uh, hello? Go ahead and try to turn a horse on a dime. A human can turn MUCH faster than a horse can, even running at full speed. What exactly will you do when the human you're trying to chase down... steps aside and runs in the direction you just came from? He can do that every time you come close assuming he's not close enough to get hit.

 

The point is, if you are light infantry there is no escape from cavalry. Your mobility doesnt mean anything because the horse is simply faster. If you try to get away you'll be run down.

You can say this as much as you want, that doesn't make it true. It is entirely possible to escape from cavalry, though admittedly it is not an easy feat to accomplish when you are in a terrain that favors the rider. But... why would you be? The Aiel have the best reconnaisance in the world, and they apparently are good enough to memorize terrain without the need for maps. (That is one aspect of the Aiel that I feel are overdone... but maybe that's because my sense of direction is poor enough to get me lost in a phone booth.)

 

As balefired said, skirmishing infantry get annihilated if they allow cavalry to close with them. No ifs, no buts, they just run right over you. As I've pointed out numerous times, even back when cavalry was fairly useless, before the invention of the stirrup and the adoption of lances for head on charges cavalry STILL owned light infantry. There's just nothing you can do, you can't get away, you can't hold your ground, you die to a man.

This is just not true. The Aiel have bows. Shoot the horse. A dead horse doesn't travel far.

 

Aside from that, even skirmishing infantry can set up a pike square. It is extremely hard to coax a horse into attacking a pike formation, mainly because they know it's not very smart to impale oneself on sharp sticks.

 

That just might be possible, if we accept the superhuman qualities of speed I gave the Aiel when I compared them to horses. Even so, if you flank the cavalry only the wings will get bogged down, the center will carry on, it is hard to stop a cavalry charge once its begun even if you want to. So you'll basically just have to sacrifice those men you use to bait them in, they'll never be able to turn and fight effectively and will be wiped out. Assuming the tactic of ''charge the biggest lot of guys they've got'' from the cavalry that's going to be a lot of men you'll lose. But anyway as I said, that is IF we accept that each Aiel can run as fast as the world record holder, carrying equipment, and over a longer distance. Otherwise a cavalry charge will be on top of them before they can do much.

We don't have to accept your ridiculous proposal at all. Humans can move faster than horses over long distances. This is a verifiable fact. A horse running at 25 or 30 miles is sprinting. Humans cannot sprint faster than a horse, but they can outrun it over long distances. The world record for 100 kilometers (for men) is ~10 miles per hour on average for a little over six hours (6:13:33, to be exact).

 

Even if you do tear though a force of Aiel infantry, you lose men -- especially when the opponents have bows that they can use while on the move. Once you've torn through them, you've just split the remaining enemy forces into two smaller units. Two smaller, more mobile units, with bows. And they're at your rear. You have to halt your charge, turn your forces around, and choose a target... while being peppered with arrows. And the target you didn't choose will just attack you in the rear. Unless you try to split your own forces, which'll take time. While being shot at.

 

Also, if you tried to put Aiel in a formation they'd lose most of the advantages they have, and with such a lightly armed soldier, the casualties you'd have to sustain in absorbing a cavalry charge would be simply unacceptable, not to mention what enemy shooting would do to you.

 

I think people are also acting like it's easy to simply eliminate your enemy's cavalry or avoid them. It is actually extremely difficult to stop part of your enemy's from engaging. It isn't something you can consistently do, just saying the Aiel are good at scouting and camouflage doesnt mean they can avoid a charge from heavy cavalry every battle. Again, to accept that they do manage this is to assume they are far better than any group of people who has ever existed and can manage extremely difficult feats as a matter of course. That is to say that they are more than human.

Ever heard the word 'discipline'?

 

You don't seem to have even the smallest grasp of tactics. You just continue to say, "Foot can't stand up to horse!"

 

I repeat: Go reread the books. Your philosophy is examined in rather great detail there.

 

Not really, the best horses can reach 45-50 miles per hour, and it seems clear that most wetland nations know a fair bit about horse breeding so its not unreasonable to assume they'd have at least good quality horses if not superb.

The absolute top record is a 55 miles per hour in a short sprint.

 

Average speed for a galloping horse is 25 to 30 miles per hour. 30-35 is considerably above average. 40+ is world class. (Note that the Kentucky Derby's record is around 37.7 miles per hour on average -- 1:59:40 over 1-1/4 mile course, carrying 126 pounds.)

 

Add the rider. Add his armor. Add barding. That's, what, 350 pounds? 180-200 pounds for the soldier, 50-60 pounds for his armor and weapons, 100 pounds for the barding. That's a low estimate, I'd say. I'd be impressed if the horse managed 30 miles per hour. The most likely speed is probably closer to 20 -- during the charge. Not all of the horses will be excellent.

 

Also, it's not a matter of numerical advantage with the flank, it's that there just wont be that much frontage to attack, because you have to make sure you aren't in front of them and they'll be moving very fast. Sort of like when shooting at a target moving perpendicular to you. If you try to lap round the back they'll speed ahead of you and if you try to gain more frontage by attacking the front you'll have to take some of the charge. If you stop to shoot you aren't running and so the charge will crash home. And the cavalry in the middle would keep going, it would be unlikely they would even notice that their comrades on the wings were becoming bogged down until after the melee began.

 

And the reason there are no real life examples to choose from is because we only have human beings to work with here out in the real world. We don't have demi-gods which is why nobody compares to the Aiel.

Move, shoot, move, shoot. It's pretty simple; you keep moving while nocking an arrow, stop to draw, shoot, then move on. It's less accurate, but fairly possible. Easier than doing it from a moving horse, which is also possible.

 

And we do have examples: The Impi Zulu, capable of outrunning horses, plus their particular three-prongs tactics. The Mongols, with horn bows. The Native Americans, for much of their culture, and the Japanese. The Celts, for their coloring. The Scots, for their clans and septs.

 

The fact that there is not one people in the world that are like the Aiel is of no consequence; almost everything they do has been done by people in the real world.

[Cillian]

I've really enjoyed reading this topic. I disagree with Milti.

 

Your mobility doesnt mean shit against a horse. Not in the context of a battle.

 

Course it does. All they have to do is remember the five D's of Dodgeball.

Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive and Dodge.

If you can dodge a horse, you can dodge a ball. ;)

 

I didn't mean Gaul was not an exceptional fighter, I meant not for an Aiel. Never is he hailed as being one of the Aiel's great heroes,

 

I don't recall any Aiel being hailed as a great hero (Correct me if I'm wrong). Closest I've seen them come to "hailing a hero" is their respect for Lan.

 

Really? What's all this nonsense Lan is spouting then about a charge from Aiel Redshields or Stone Dogs being impossible to stop?

 

You're taking him at his absolute word. He's just saying it's a fearsome thing, very hard to stop.

Please don't retort "You can stop them with CAVALRY! CAVALRY! CAVALRY!", because like pretty much everyone else has said, it's circumstantial.

[Braus]

 

I didn't mean Gaul was not an exceptional fighter, I meant not for an Aiel. Never is he hailed as being one of the Aiel's great heroes, it seems he's just the run of the mill Aiel (which means he's roughly as good as the 5 or 10 best fighters in the entire wetlands). My point was that all the Aiel seem able to do things like that, it just isnt a big deal.

 

Thing is, Aiel doesnt seem to gossip that much who of them is the greatest warriors. Or well at least we dont get to take part of that gossip, in ways the Aiel seems very hard to impress, and even when u have impressed them, forexample Mat/Rand/Lan they still dont bow in awe because of u, they just note u and maybe respect you abit more, but thats all. We dont really get to know who is the greatest fighers amongs the Aiel.

[elmis]

Second attempt to post, managed to write a loong one, that got eaten up! :(

 

I didn't mean Gaul was not an exceptional fighter' date=' I meant not for an Aiel. Never is he hailed as being one of the Aiel's great heroes, it seems he's just the run of the mill Aiel (which means he's roughly as good as the 5 or 10 best fighters in the entire wetlands). My point was that all the Aiel seem able to do things like that, it just isnt a big deal.[/quote']

 

Quite the opposite.  We are told that Gaul is basically next in line to be sent to Rhuidian to become Clan Chief.  I would say this puts him pretty high up on the list of exceptional fighters.

 

This is not correct. Couladin was described as a very good warrior on several occations in the book, but he was refused entry to Rhuidan. I think the wise ones look for wisdom and leadership, rather than battle prowess when they send someone to Rhuidan.

 

Humans cannot sprint faster than a horse' date=' but they can outrun it over long distances. The world record for 100 kilometers (for men) is ~10 miles per hour on average for a little over six hours (6:13:33, to be exact).[/quote']

 

Yeah, but what does this guy look like? I posted earlier about Haile Gebrselassie, one of the all time great long distance runners on earth. He looks like this:

 

Hardly how the Aiel are described, being tall and buff. Bruan is said to be as big as TWO blacksmiths.

 

Forget all the horse vs. foot arguments for a moment and look at it as a whole:

 

1. Exceptional runners.

2. Exceptional climbers.

3. Exceptional spear fighters.

4. Exceptional tacticians.

5. Ninja like hand-to-hand combat skills.

6. Most of them seem to be smart, save the "evil shaido" and there only the high end leaders seem to have faults (whilst the wetlanders are riddle with the 'disease' of being stupid, ignorant, or even down right dumb).

7. They are litterally a million people (if not more), whom all seem to know how to use a spear. How do they manage sustain themselves in the waste, if it is so arid, when they spend time doing calorie buring training?

8. Exceptional at adapting to their surroundings, even "inventing" snowshoes at one point.

9. Death doesn't seem to give them a pause at all - only time we've seen them broken is at Dumais, which was just a huge meat grinder.

10. All the guys, cept for Han, seem to be ~7 feet tall and well muscled.

 

Heck, even six no-name Maidens managed to kill several Grey men (allowing only one to make it into Rand's chamber). Lan said in TDR that Grey men managed to slip past guards, Aes Sedai and Warders to make it within striking range to the Amyrlin once. Not to mention that they don't really seem affected by the gaze of a Myrdraal, and the Myrdraal seemed afraid of them (from TDR - when Rhuarc and four others try to save the girls from THREE Myrdraal).

 

That's why, I at least, think RJ toned them down somewhere during LoC. I gave references to this in my earlier post, and it's good that he did. If not, where would the suspense be? The half a million (wotmania faq numbers) Aiel soldiers Rand has at his disposal would just clean up shop.

[Braus]

Stop the arguements about running faster than horses. It doesnt mean shit(just like most of the arguements about Aiel in this thread). Its not even interesting. What matters is that Aiel can run, and they can run fast, faster than any other army on foot(other armys pretty much walk, while Aiel run). Its enough to move large parts of their armies into favourable positons, cutting off escape or coming up on the sides.

 

 

Militades, your really are completly ignorant of the books and the Aiel is obviously superhuman, because you say so.

[Braus]

.

 

Aiel arent what we nowadays call marathon runners. They are just very good runners with as said before in teh read, extremly long training(even before they were born by the ancestors). And as said, its really not interesting how far a Aiel can run or how fast. What matters is that they practised it their whole life, amongst other training like martial arts  or weapon training or w/e. Compared to any other army they are mobility itself.

 

And about Marathon runners. Those guys seems to have shaved off whatever they can to become better at running for a long time, it doesnt mean thats the most effective way. Life today is alot more comfortable than it used to be in our own world forexample. I mean who knows. Me myself i would proberly value life long hard training because you Have to, compared to training that you do because you want to become better. Just compare to yourself. A person who say, erm, is chopping wood with an axe his whole life or a guy who goes to the gym once a day for an hour or two. But nvm, as said this doesnt really matter when it comes to the Aiel, they have run their whole life and trained, so they should those advantages on the field, even if they cant outrun a horse(why they'd need to be able to do that i still dont understand, all they need is a certain speed to be able to regroup fast enough)

[elmis]

What about the other points in my post Braus?

 

I'm not saying that they are "superhuman", but I understand where Mili is coming from. They're beefed up because RJ wanted them to be - I don't have a problem with that, but it is a strech that there could be a people like that in the real world.

[Braus]

havent read your whole post yet, just commented on the marathon runner, the picture of him. Once i get home ill read it. What i meant with the marathon runner comment was just that because the top runners in the world nowadays looks like that and pretty much comes from africa, doesnt mean that Aiel should look like that. Then again i guess this touches the superhuman field better than anything else in this thread this far, if Aiel is both good runners and strong. But as my bad example about the wood cutting lol, if hard training in all sorts of form is apart of your life, you will eventually grow. What i was comparing was "training"(actually living as an Aiel, but i keep using training) a whole day until you go to bed, compared to people who go to the gym and pushes some heavy weights a few times(going to the gym is pretty much about this in my opinion, you exhaust yourself with wieghts, something you wouldnt be able to do for 12 hours a day, not the same level of weights. It also means that when you train that way, you wont be able to train that kind of muscle for a day or two, if you dont wanna hurt yourself. The Aiel on the other way got running/trotting or walking as big parts of their life and weapon training and martial arts and fighting in battles. Its a constant strain i bet, but their bodies are used to it.

[Braus]

ill say one thing more tho, swimming forexample is a great way to train. You dont only train your condition(really not sure whats the correct word for that in english) but you also your whole body. So is Martial arts, or lets say icescating, dancing, gymnastics etc.

 

Im no expert when it comes to food and training. But i bet if you live the life of an Aiel, not goin soft, and you dont starve(which i dont think they do) you should have no problems keeping muscles, but im pretty sure they dont have the kind of muscles people nowadays who take anabola/goes to the gym often has. Short ones i think its called. They got long ones, which takes alot more of training.