Choedan Kal

[Luckers]

i maintain that alivia didn't drive cyndane off.  it always felt to me that the forsaken retreated from battle once the cleansing process was done, hence they simply didnt' have any reason to stay any longer, especially knowing that rand might possibly blow up everything around him.

 

and you are deluded if you think training as a weapon does not help in a duel.  in hundreds of years do you think alivia would not have had to hunt down wilders in seanchan?  do you not think that many of these wilders have special talents that coudl have been very nasty in duels also?  your dislike of the seanchan culture clouds your judgement of their abilities.

 

The Cleansing lasted hours. Even if Alivia did not drive Cyndane off she held for hours. And Cyndane did have reason to stay--had she not Moridin would have crushed her cour'souvra.

 

As for your second comment Thor, you quite clearly did not read my post. The answer is yes, I do maintain that training as a wapon would not help Alivia. Most damane are taken quietly in the yearly testing, and on the occaisional time a marath'daman appears teams of damane are sent, not one alone. And no, i do not think those wilders would have special abilities that might have prepared Alivia for fighting a fully trained channeler, on her own in a duel.

 

Alivia is a killing specialist.  Everybody notes that she is great at weaves used for fighting and not much else - she is simply a more talented fighter.  Nynaeve is not a killing specialist.  Her skills lie in being a very strong healer.  Given those specialities, the fact that Alivia is substantially stronger than Nynaeve, and that Alivia is much more experienced in fighting (some of which had to have been channeler vs channeler in Seanchan), I have to think that Alivia did much better than Nynaeve could have.

 

Alivia is a battle expert--there is a difference between those skills and the skills needed to fight a duel,. one on one. In effect you are qrong, Alivia is not more skilled or more experienced than Nynaeve. Nynaeve has much more experience than Alivia in thiese fields.

 

I dont agree with that at all.  Lets face it - the Seanchan are MUCH more experienced in fighting battles with the power than Aes Sedai, so why would their damane be completely ignorant of how to defend a basic attack.  Why would one of their best battle damane not know basic fighting orientated techniques?  That just doesnt make much sense to me - their fighting skills should NOT be crude compared to the Aes Sedai given their vast experience advantage.

 

They would be much more skilled at defending against a basic attack. You are utterly correct that they are much better than the Aes Sedai at using the power in battle. But in a duel you are not dealing with basic attacks. The daman are never placed in the situaton Alivia was in. They would have no experience and no talent with it.

 

It's the difference between a highly skilled pikeman and a highly skilled blademaster. The pikemaan in his foremation, with the support of his army, would kill the blademaster. One on one though, not a chance.

 

I don't know if Nynaeve can be said to be a blademaster--she's the closest i can think of in terms of experience within the modern world except Rand. But either way she has tonnes more experience than Alivia in this form of fighting, and she had superior knowledge.

[Majsju]

While Nynaeve does have a great deal more experience than Alivi, lets not forget what it was that saved her both times she bested Moghedien. It was not a bunch of cool weaves, it was not a collection of ter'angreal. It was her ability to keep a cool head and think outside the box, something Moghedien did not expect.

 

And ability to think outside the box, I find it extremely difficult to believe a damane would have had much chance to practice that. They are weapons, and you do not want your weapons to think anything other than what you tell them to think.

[Builder]

Can someone please explain why the female part was destroyed?

[Luckers]

While Nynaeve does have a great deal more experience than Alivi, lets not forget what it was that saved her both times she bested Moghedien. It was not a bunch of cool weaves, it was not a collection of ter'angreal. It was her ability to keep a cool head and think outside the box, something Moghedien did not expect.

 

And ability to think outside the box, I find it extremely difficult to believe a damane would have had much chance to practice that. They are weapons, and you do not want your weapons to think anything other than what you tell them to think.

 

I agree--that was part of what i meant in her experience.

 

Can someone please explain why the female part was destroyed?

 

From earlier in the thread. "The melting was caused by the use to which the female Choedan Kal was put--specifically, in forcing it to 'strain' saidin. Saidin and saidar cannot be mixed, that was the key behind the cleansing. Using saidar in the way he did he was able to condense [saidin] to the point that it forced the taint out, like wringing a chamois.

 

Saidar was the key in this. It was the 'wringer'. It exerted the force that created this effect. It was that strain which destroyed the female Choedan Kal--the strain of attempting to force saidar and saidin to mix."

 

[Owners.Inc]

I've always felt that Nynaeve's victory over Moggy was a little fortuitous. Had Bridgette not come in during the second encounter, Moggy would have won. Just for kicks, I'll bring up the Black Ajah and Nynaeve's experiences chasing them. I wouldn't say that she lacks dueling experience. No matter how I think about it, Nynaeve or maybe even Cadsuane would have been better choices to face off Lanfear.

 

Alivia could easily have taken Nynaeve's place. It was stated prior to that scene that Rand trusted Alivia (literally) with his life, so the linking wasn't an issue either. I dunno why it didn't work out that way, frankly.

 

I've got no clue why the female part was destroyed. I think the 'wringer' idea might be a good one, hell, it might even be the right one. But this how I saw it when I first read through. I put it down to the pattern (see below):

 

The following is a little far-fetched, but it could have happened:

The female Choedan Kal was flawed. As in the AOL AS screwed up and didn't make it properly. It still worked, but was a one-time use card. The burning of the female choedan kal has a specific importance in the pattern: the melting of the statue would signify the end of the Age of Dreams to the people on tremalking. (How important this is, I have no clue). This would greatly disturb the Sea Folk, and maybe (and this is the REAL stretch) make them easier for Logain to manipulate into following Rand. (yes, I'm aware the Bargain had already been made, but if I recall correctly, Logain was having some trouble convincing them that Rand needed them). It probably isn't much, as I've mentioned. Let me know if I've messed up some part of the plot. I can't remember all of it as well as I could.

 

I guess the above is more an idea on why the statue melting was important to the plot rather than why it actually melted in the first place.

[Builder]

Wow that must have been a powerful feeling - wielding both Saidin and Saidar in such extreme amounts and so densely.

[Krazikarl]

 

Alivia is a battle expert--there is a difference between those skills and the skills needed to fight a duel,. one on one. In effect you are qrong, Alivia is not more skilled or more experienced than Nynaeve. Nynaeve has much more experience than Alivia in thiese fields.

 

First off, lets not go nuts with Nynaeve's experience in duels.  She has been in a few and doesnt practice them.  A few fights with the power is not a vast resevoir of experience by any means.  Trying to turn these very few fights with no practice in between into the equivalent of being a blademaster - somebody who has necessarily beaten many fit opponents and practiced all the time - is not going to work for me.  Furthermore, unless my memory is misleading me (which is possible - its early in the morning as I type this), Nynaeve doesnt even have experience with her Moghedian style fighting weaves, which is what you are tauting so much.

 

You also have no idea how much experience Alivia has in 1v1 type situations.  I maintain that she is likely to have MUCH more effective experience.  Even in battles, things do devolve into quick 1v1 type situations.  We have seen this happen all the time in WoT during battles.  I think its very likely that you have situations wher the suldam is ordered to take out some opposing damane that is killing a lot of soldiers, and there you have a 1v1 situation in the middle of a battle. This seems like a very natural thing to me.  I think its also very likely that damane are capable of defending people in the field, which would require dueling skills also.

 

Lets use a quick analogy.

 

You have:

 

Swordsman A: 20 year old kid who has fought and won 2 duels in his life, mostly by luck.  He never practices fighting.  He's been shown some advanced moves by a skilled teacher, but only tried them out a few times one afternoon and has done nothing else since.

 

Swordsman B: A veteran of 50 battles.  He has practiced various forms of fighting for decades.  He is considered to be the best soldier by his comrades, and has a substantial strength advantage over Swordsman A.

 

Who are you going to take in a 1v1 fight to the death?  I'm taking Swordsman B every day of the week and I think that nearly everybody else would too.  And I dont think that anybody would be touting Swordsman A's experience as an advantage.

 

I think that this is a pretty strong analogy too since we frequently see how similar swordfighting and channeling are in the series.

 

While Nynaeve does have a great deal more experience than Alivi, lets not forget what it was that saved her both times she bested Moghedien. It was not a bunch of cool weaves, it was not a collection of ter'angreal. It was her ability to keep a cool head and think outside the box, something Moghedien did not expect.

 

And ability to think outside the box, I find it extremely difficult to believe a damane would have had much chance to practice that. They are weapons, and you do not want your weapons to think anything other than what you tell them to think.

 

I think that having certain reflexes is an advantage, not a problem.  You want to hammer home certain reflexes when fighting.  Alivia probably has those reflexes as she is experienced.  Nynaeve does not.  If you dont have the reflexes, you might be forced to think outside of the box because you have no chance of winning otherwise, but I think that it would be strongly advantageous to just have the right reflexes in the first place.

 

To go back to my early analogy, you can either have a creative swordsman with no practice or an uncreative swordsman with tons of practice.  I'm taking the practice over creativity any day.

[Ahaz Flagg]

Where is your proof that the Seanchan have any wilders running lose?  From all we read, they make a feast day of chosing Sul'Dam, and Damne.  Simply put, you have 0 proof that seanchan have any wilders. Lastly you have 0 proof that Aliva has ever had any one on one fights. Until you do, you are just guessing.  We do have proof that Damane are used in battles, and rarley alone.

[Mr Ares]

I think its very likely that you have situations wher the suldam is ordered to take out some opposing damane that is killing a lot of soldiers, and there you have a 1v1 situation in the middle of a battle.

That is not a one on one situation. It is covering fire.

 

Swordsman A: 20 year old kid who has fought and won 2 duels in his life, mostly by luck. He never practices fighting. He's been shown some advanced moves by a skilled teacher, but only tried them out a few times one afternoon and has done nothing else since.

 

Swordsman B: A veteran of 50 battles. He has practiced various forms of fighting for decades. He is considered to be the best soldier by his comrades, and has a substantial strength advantage over Swordsman A.

An analogy that is way off the mark, as Nynaeve's skill set goes far beyond what you are saying. So, swordsperson A should be capable of thinking outside the box, far less specialised in terms of knowledge and abilities, and with experience in duels as opposed to pitched battles. Swordsperson B is a veteran of various pitched battles, but never a duel, never a small scale fight, with no need for initiative, just following orders, with a limited skill set. So, who would you back in a fight to the death? A will be willing to fight dirty, to do things B would never dream of, and operated by herself without wainting for backup. A stands a very good chance. Duels and pitched battles are different things, requiring different skills, different ways of thinking, of acting. Nynaeve is by far the more versatile operator, Alivia is limited to certain specific situations, although in those situations she would outclass Nynaeve.

[Wonzer]

Where is your proof that the Seanchan have any wilders running lose?  From all we read, they make a feast day of chosing Sul'Dam, and Damne.  Simply put, you have 0 proof that seanchan have any wilders. Lastly you have 0 proof that Aliva has ever had any one on one fights. Until you do, you are just guessing.  We do have proof that Damane are used in battles, and rarley alone.

 

If I remember right, there has been a wars and battles (against rebels) in Seanchan where both sides had damanes. I think it was statet in the POV of some seanchan, but can't remember in what book so I'm not going to look now :P

[Ahaz Flagg]

Where is your proof that the Seanchan have any wilders running lose?  From all we read, they make a feast day of chosing Sul'Dam, and Damne.  Simply put, you have 0 proof that seanchan have any wilders. Lastly you have 0 proof that Aliva has ever had any one on one fights. Until you do, you are just guessing.  We do have proof that Damane are used in battles, and rarley alone.

 

If I remember right, there has been a wars and battles (against rebels) in Seanchan where both sides had damanes. I think it was statet in the POV of some seanchan, but can't remember in what book so I'm not going to look now :P

 

Yes indeed they have had battles with other people who use damane, and than they send the ever victorious army to shoot it down.  Nothing has ever been suggested that there were any areas that have escaped the chosing day.  The simple fact is, there is no proof to suggest they miss anyone who can channel, in fact there is strong eveidence to suggest they miss no one.

[Krazikarl]

 

An analogy that is way off the mark, as Nynaeve's skill set goes far beyond what you are saying. So, swordsperson A should be capable of thinking outside the box, far less specialised in terms of knowledge and abilities, and with experience in duels as opposed to pitched battles. Swordsperson B is a veteran of various pitched battles, but never a duel, never a small scale fight, with no need for initiative, just following orders, with a limited skill set. So, who would you back in a fight to the death? A will be willing to fight dirty, to do things B would never dream of, and operated by herself without wainting for backup. A stands a very good chance. Duels and pitched battles are different things, requiring different skills, different ways of thinking, of acting. Nynaeve is by far the more versatile operator, Alivia is limited to certain specific situations, although in those situations she would outclass Nynaeve.

 

Where are people getting this idea that Nynaeve has some kind of substantial skill set it terms of duels?  As people have pointed out, the VERY small number of actual duels that she has won in were won almost entirely due to luck or outside interference (and were against opponents who were famously poor fighters).  And she has demonstrated no interest or special ability in fighting skills.  Can anybody think of a situation where anybody would be lead to believe that Nynaeve is actually good at fighting with the power?

 

Nobody has ANY IDEA AT ALL how experience Alivia is in fighting in duels.  They are inferring that she has no experience in fighting duels because she has fought in many battles, a line of reasoning whose logic just doesnt work.  I've also suggested a few ways above in which she would have very naturally fought in 1v1 situations in Seanchan over the hundreds of years of fighting experience that she has.

 

And the suggestion that it would be reasonable to take a creative fighter over somebody who has superior strength, fighting experience, practice, and talent is just being strange.

 

 

Yes indeed they have had battles with other people who use damane, and than they send the ever victorious army to shoot it down.  Nothing has ever been suggested that there were any areas that have escaped the chosing day.  The simple fact is, there is no proof to suggest they miss anyone who can channel, in fact there is strong eveidence to suggest they miss no one.

 

I agree that there probably arent many murah'damane wandering around in Seanchan and that Alivia would have fought mostly other damane.

 

However, there probably are at least some wilders.  IIRC we know that some areas, like where Ajimbura comes from, are only marginally and recently under Imperial control (assuming that my memory isnt failing me), so it might be reasonable to expect some murath'damane in such regions.

[Mr Ares]

Where are people getting this idea that Nynaeve has some kind of substantial skill set it terms of duels?

She has a substantial skill set in general, with many things that could be useful in a duel. Alivia is far more specialised.

 

Nobody has ANY IDEA AT ALL how experience Alivia is in fighting in duels.

There is no reason why she should ever have done it. Damane don't operate alone.

 

And the suggestion that it would be reasonable to take a creative fighter over somebody who has superior strength, fighting experience, practice, and talent is just being strange.

Nynave has greater experience in such a situation, she has a greater knowledge of the Power. There are other reasons beyond creativity, but that is itself nothing to be dismissed. Knowledge was Cyndane's great asset against Alivia. She would not have as great an advantage over Nynaeve.

 

If you would actually like to address what I said, please do.

[Krazikarl]

She has a substantial skill set in general, with many things that could be useful in a duel. Alivia is far more specialised.

 

We arent talking about skill sets in general.  We are talking about an extremely specific area - fighting with the power.  And that happens to be exactly what Alivia is specialized in.  Nynaeve's primary skill set is Healing, which is completely useless in a 1v1 fight.

 

Also, Nynaeve actually isnt all that well rounded of a channeler.  She is quite specialized herself (although not as much as Alivia), except not in fighting.  Nyneave has greating healing ability, but beyond that she really isnt all that elsewhere.  She doesnt make Ter'angreal.  She doesnt control the weather all that well despite her weather sensing abilities.  She also has very little formal training.  And she is the most stubborn and arrogant person when it comes to learning from others, so she cant have learned that much from other people.  So I really see Nynaeve as a specialist too, albeit not quite as much as Alivia.  Elayne and Egwene demonstrate much larger skillsets.

 

There is no reason why she should ever have done it. Damane don't operate alone.

 

But suldam + damane do.  In addition to encountering other damane on the battlefield and it ending up in a 1v1 scenario (which we see happening all the time in battles btw), I would imagine that suldam + damane are used in things like assassination attempts.  After all, we know that the Seanchan assissinate people left and right by all accounts.  So why wouldnt they be using their most powerful tools to do that?  That necessitates damane to protect people, which requires training in 1v1 situations.

 

Nynave has greater experience in such a situation, she has a greater knowledge of the Power. There are other reasons beyond creativity, but that is itself nothing to be dismissed. Knowledge was Cyndane's great asset against Alivia. She would not have as great an advantage over Nynaeve.

 

Once again, you have no evidence that Nynaeve has greater experience and I have arguments to the contrary, so I reject the first clause.  I also dont see anything to suggest that she has greater knowledge of the Power in the key area that we are talking about - fighting.  In fact, given the Aes Sedais' impression of Alivia fighting abilities and Nynaeve's teacher's well known weaknesses, I think its pretty likely that Alivia has substantially superior fighting knowledge over Nynaeve.

[Thor]

nowhere in the book did it say that alivia is specialized.  nowhere did it say that alivia was the damane who they use to 'blow things up big boom bigger boom very very big boom and nothing more'.

 

we know that one of the most important jobs for damane is to hunt down marath damane, and as i already said, you are a fool to believe that none of those have special talents.  eg recall the weakling in tanchico who calimed that she can keep a forsaken shielded, at least she did keep elayne (or was it egwene) shielded.

[Lanthirrhos]

I'd like to point out that the Seanchan are unlikely to have invaded The Randland continent if there were so many battles for Alivia to become so talented in. You need a fairly united front to begin an invasion. (Yeah, don't even bother bringing up the politics... obviously not completely united... but united enough to try)

 

She may have picked up a good bit  after a few hundred years, but it's not like SHE was channeling 24/7 either. Not all her vaunted battle skills anyways. For that matter, she isn't even allowed to channel unless  she is being told/shown what to do by a suldam. Lots of practice there eh? Lots of strategic thought, so many tactics flitting through her head huh? :P I'm not saying that she is inept at all, she is GREAT at doing what she is told to do, which is really only what the suldam says to do. And how is a suldam to know what the OP is capable of? Granted, they CAN be channelers... but they aren't. They don't train, they don't study the OP beyond what they have established works. They don't even let the damane fool around with the Power to learn new things. So what they know(and what they allow their damane to know) is both very specialized, and very limited.

 

Alivia wasn't the wilder-hunter extrordanaire either. She'd be lucky to have caught as many rogue channelers as Nyn has won duels, and as has been stated, evidence points to the Seanchan using groups.

 

Nyn DID study in the tower, granted that she had her block et al, but the basis of her knowledge is much wider. And lets face it, most battles of any sort, aren't won with extensive knowledge of one subject, it's the odd little trivia (like fireworks exploding men just as well as pretty colors ;) ) that will lead to a victory. Alivia was used for mass slaughter. THAT is her PURPOSE(or it was). Not so with Nyn, she has the other trivia and lore that follows with studying under, and embracing, the ideas of fellow channelers, who have the benefit of hundreds of years of study and use to pass on.

[Muad Cheade]

I'm just going to jump in the middle of this "debate" with a few things.

 

I'd like to point out that the Seanchan are unlikely to have invaded The Randland continent if there were so many battles for Alivia to become so talented in. You need a fairly united front to begin an invasion. (Yeah, don't even bother bringing up the politics... obviously not completely united... but united enough to try)

 

There were numerous rebellions and battles on Seanchan (the continent) even after complete unification. After all, it is larger than Randland (I believe) and empires are hard to maintain. Also, if you recall, in one of Rand's alternate lives via the Portal Stone in The Great Hunt, the Seanchan eventually did conquer all of Randland and destroyed the White Tower. The Seanchan Empire is "united" enough for a campaign of that magnitude.

 

Also, Alivia is older than all Aes Sedai (right?) She has very much more "experience" than most channelers also. While it is not clear what happened during her hundreds of years as a damane, it is clear she had a fairly large experience of battle. Other than that, the rest is merely speculation. As seen in KoD, she is a fast learner which is why it is obviousl how she can know dangerous, offensive weaves.

 

She may have picked up a good bit  after a few hundred years, but it's not like SHE was channeling 24/7 either. Not all her vaunted battle skills anyways. For that matter, she isn't even allowed to channel unless  she is being told/shown what to do by a suldam. Lots of practice there eh? Lots of strategic thought, so many tactics flitting through her head huh? Tongue I'm not saying that she is inept at all, she is GREAT at doing what she is told to do, which is really only what the suldam says to do. And how is a suldam to know what the OP is capable of? Granted, they CAN be channelers... but they aren't. They don't train, they don't study the OP beyond what they have established works. They don't even let the damane fool around with the Power to learn new things. So what they know(and what they allow their damane to know) is both very specialized, and very limited.

 

As I previously said, she is a quick learner with weaves. Even if she is not aware of the actual weaves her suldam is creating she can still see and learn the weaves another suldam-controlling damane is creating. Also, seeing how suldam have operated for hundreds of years, it is not far-fetched to believe that they know dangerous weaves since war is one of their specialties.

 

Nynaeve's martial prowess is not to be doubted either. She did hold her own against Moghedien, a Forsaken, and also two members of the Black Ajah in Ebou Dar. Aes Sedai (except for the Green Ajah) are not martially-focused though which explains why Alivia would know more than her.

 

Quick question: Why is there a debate over Alivia and Nynaeve's skills in war in a post about the Choedan Kal? Just wondering. Too lazy to read the rest of the posts..

[Phariah]

if u rember when Rand first got the access keys he stated he didnt trust himself w/ Callandor because of his inexperience an how seductive that amount of power was there was no way he would use the key anytime soon hopefully

 

and another point ,, the amount of concentration needed to use it ( he was so focused on his weaves he had no idea of the situation on the hill around him )  he wouldn't be able to react properly in a all out fight i think its more for  earth shattering things than combat ( need a new mountain range? how  about a new lake? or as a cork for the DO's hole? )

 

its like bringing a nuke to a grenade fight

[Mr Ares]

We arent talking about skill sets in general. We are talking about an extremely specific area - fighting with the power. And that happens to be exactly what Alivia is specialized in.  Nynaeve's primary skill set is Healing, which is completely useless in a 1v1 fight.

Alivia's skill set is more specialised than that. She is used to being part of a team, part of an army, not acting by herself, unlike Nynaeve, Nynaeve has used the Power more often in 1 on 1 situations, she is skilled at tracking and moving through woods, and so on, and so forth. Fighting with the Power is not one monolithic skill set. She has experience of some forms of fighting with the Power, not ones that would be useful here. Alivia would be the equivalent of an artillerist, good at pointing where she is told to point and shooting when she is told to shoot. Nynaeve doesn't have her experience at that, but she does have it of thinking for herself, acting for herself, acting without back up, acting in 1 on 1 duels, using the Power in a far greater variety of ways. Alivia's limited skills were not the best in this situation. Nynaeve knows more than Alivia, and it was knowledge of the Power that was Cyndane's principal asset in that fight - so much of that would be cancelled out by Nynaeve.

 

But suldam + damane do.

Not as far as we have seen.

In addition to encountering other damane on the battlefield and it ending up in a 1v1 scenario (which we see happening all the time in battles btw)

If it is so common, let's see your examples, and how relevant they are. Battles on the battlefield turning into 1 on 1 fights is a decidedly atypical affair. What reason for two specific damane to go at it? None. The situation you previously outlined, of a damane being used to attack another damane to protect the regular soldiers the damane is attacking, is not really applicable to this situation, as that would not be a duel in the manner under discussion.

So why wouldnt they be using their most powerful tools to do that?

Because you don't use a sledgehammer to crack an egg, for one thing, because they are highly visible for another.

 

Once again, you have no evidence that Nynaeve has greater experience and I have arguments to the contrary

And your arguments to the contrary have been shown to be crap. We know Nynaeve has the experience, we have no reason at all to believe Alivia does and every reason to believe she doesn't.

I also dont see anything to suggest that she has greater knowledge of the Power in the key area that we are talking about - fighting.

She has greater knowledge of the Power in a variety of areas, and that would include in some forms of figthing - fighting not just being one block of skills, any more than MMA is comparable to blitzkrieg. Rommel was a good tank general, but that doesn't mean a damn thing if you put him in the ring with no weapons against someone who knows what they are doing. Not forgetting that Alivia has precious little experience of acting for herself, while Nynaeve has a lifetime of it.

[dholm]

I'd just like to point out that the reason Cyndane relied on her knowledge was because Alivia (using Nyneave's angreal) was stronger than her. Alivia is also stronger in the Power than Nynaeve. While I fully agree that Nynaeve has greater flexibility in her use of the Power than Alivia does, Nynaeve would have less fuel to bring to the fire. Whether her increased flexibility would have outweighed the loss in strength against Cyndane...

[Mr. Dragon]

 

From earlier in the thread. "The melting was caused by the use to which the female Choedan Kal was put--specifically, in forcing it to 'strain' saidin. Saidin and saidar cannot be mixed, that was the key behind the cleansing. Using saidar in the way he did he was able to condense [saidin] to the point that it forced the taint out, like wringing a chamois.

 

Saidar was the key in this. It was the 'wringer'. It exerted the force that created this effect. It was that strain which destroyed the female Choedan Kal--the strain of attempting to force saidar and saidin to mix."

 

 

This is a good theory but I disagree, the main reason why I can see that this is wrong is because to exert force on something, an equal and opposite force must act against it there for it was not just Saidar that was trying to force the two together, it was both, the strain should there for be the same on both sides so both of the Choedan Kal by your logic should have been destroyed. I would also like to point out that the only affect that chanelling has on the chaneller, other than the affects of the weaves, relates to the strength at which your chanelling. The fact that Nyneave chanelled too much (for her) put too much strain on the Choedan Kal resulting in it's demise.

[Allisia Sedai]

 

From earlier in the thread. "The melting was caused by the use to which the female Choedan Kal was put--specifically, in forcing it to 'strain' saidin. Saidin and saidar cannot be mixed, that was the key behind the cleansing. Using saidar in the way he did he was able to condense [saidin] to the point that it forced the taint out, like wringing a chamois.

 

Saidar was the key in this. It was the 'wringer'. It exerted the force that created this effect. It was that strain which destroyed the female Choedan Kal--the strain of attempting to force saidar and saidin to mix."

 

 

This is a good theory but I disagree, the main reason why I can see that this is wrong is because to exert force on something, an equal and opposite force must act against it there for it was not just Saidar that was trying to force the two together, it was both, the strain should there for be the same on both sides so both of the Choedan Kal by your logic should have been destroyed. I would also like to point out that the only affect that chanelling has on the chaneller, other than the affects of the weaves, relates to the strength at which your chanelling. The fact that Nyneave chanelled too much (for her) put too much strain on the Choedan Kal resulting in it's demise.

 

I personally was always of the belief that it was Rand's clunky use of Saidar. Since he's been using Saidin this entire time which he essentially has to fight his hardest to control (like all male users), using Saidar was an entirely different experience. Given his already set-in stubbornness coupled with the only way he knows to work the power, working Saidar was potentially disastrous for him. He had to learn that he couldn't control Saidar and fight it, something that takes novices take days to learn, and in some cases months (Nynaeve, but granted, she had a block), whereas Rand had to learn within just a few hours.  Naturally, chances are this wasn't exactly an easy thing for him to do. He really stretched and strained Saidar and by extension the female Choedan Kal, I believe, because he kept trying to force and fight something that simply cannot be fought. Just my two cents, though!

[Phariah]

i agree with u Mr. Dragon an also the two Sa'angreal are the same power yet Ny an Rand aren't so she had to have more of a strain to match Rand since the access key should prevent major harm but her sa'angreal would need to pull more  to match Rand thus burning it out ?

[CTM]

Nynaeve couldn't even beat Talaan after a hour of practicing.

[Mr Ares]

I'd just like to point out that the reason Cyndane relied on her knowledge was because Alivia (using Nyneave's angreal) was stronger than her.

So Nynaeve, using Nynaeve's angreal, would also be stronger than her, but not by as much, and her knowledge advantage would be diluted because Ny knows about things like reversing weaves.

 

i agree with u Mr. Dragon an also the two Sa'angreal are the same power yet Ny an Rand aren't so she had to have more of a strain to match Rand since the access key should prevent major harm but her sa'angreal would need to pull more  to match Rand thus burning it out?

More saidin was channeled than saidar. There was no need for the female to keep up with the male.