A couple thoughts on Rand's death

[MatsLuck]

I have many different ideas/theories on many aspects of this, but here are two that just came to me. First, how do you think Rand is going to die? Assuming that he is whether he comes back after or not. Will it be a climactic power duel with Ishy backed by the Dark One? Fain's dagger in the back? A self-sacrifice, perhaps involving an inenr struggle? Lews Therin type suicide? I would love to hear some thoughts on this.

 

But that got me to thinking, what if his death comes out of nowhere? What if his death saving the world is more symbolic than literal. Say, he dies...unexpectedly and in such a fashion as to inspire the armies of light to all out charge and win the day. Or something along those lines. Perhaps Tarmon Gai'don is going along...kind of a see saw battle, nothing too bad yet...and then BAM. Rand..dead. Maybe at this time Mat, in desperation blows the horn. Bringing back the heroes including...Lews Therin Telamon. I certainly think it would be shocking for readers if it happened as a surprise, without buildup. What do you think?

 

BTW I'm new here ;) Hi everyone!

[AcuWill]

Maybe Rand dies, Mat blows Horn, Wheel get broken in the mean time, Rand comes back with Horn, defeats Dark One and they all live happily ever after.

[Mashiara Sedai]

Hi MatsLuck!  Welcome!

 

That's a great thought, about Rand dying and him coming back from the call of the Horn.  That would be very unexpected and thrilling if it happened in that way.  I'm not too sure how I think Rand will die.  Alivia will help him... so that leads me to think that it'll be more a self-sacrifice.  Other than that, I have no thoughts one way or another.  There are just too many possibilities.

 

On the subject of Rand's death however...

 

I see two ways it could happen:

1.  Nynaeve Heals death.  It could happen.

2.  The Creator finally takes part in the world and brings back his soul, like the Dark One does with the Forsaken. 

 

Also, on another side note, I like how you point out that Mat sounds the Horn.  It seems like most people forget that he is the Hornsounder.  Many think he'll be in charge of the armies against the Shadow, but I think his main role will be to sound the Horn.  I think Rand will need the other ta'veren by his side to pull the threads of chance and luck around them.  If they're off the Light knows where, the pattern won't swirl the way it's supposed to.  They all need to be together.

 

 

~Mashiara

[Aldanath]

I have this sadistic idea that his blood refers to his children and that his kids were going to die, causing him to go all animalistic and funk shrimp up.  But i don't have the prophecy handy and can't remember other references to his death... a good old on the spot prediction.

[Jack of the Shadows]

I've been thinking about this alot as well. I doubt the Creator will be involved. What sets the creator apart from the dark one is that he is hands off and does not meddle with our free will. I feel they are a mirror image of one another, Shitan(sp?) and the Creator. Where the dark one meddles and wants to reshape the word, and the creator made and set the world. The dark one chooses his Neblus(sp?) the creator has chosen the dragon reborn. Where as the dark one hand picks his guy, the creator allows the pattern to weave its coarse. Hands on vs. Hands off. Seeing all the symbolism and what Mr. Rigney drew upon for inspiration its very much the same concept as the Devil and God making a bet for human souls.

That being said, one thing Mr. Rigney I think has down to a science is his prophecies. We've had them all the way since Book 1. So he has pretty much known where he wanted to go with them. What we have seen is that more often then not the obvious is wrong. "If you would live you must die". My opinion is that I think it will be like what happened to Mat. He was hung, Rand found him dead and resuscitated him. Once your heart stops you are dead.

I think this has happened already once with Mat. "To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was!". Basically He was killed, Rand brought him back, and now his memories encompass what once was. So I deduce you will see a similar fate. I doubt healing death will happen, it can't happen. At least with the One power as it is derived from the creator and it would go against the basic laws the creator has set up, and I believe that is something Mr. Rigney would adhere to.

 

All in all I think you can expect a big battle. Rand will be there and something will happen where his heart will stop. Someone will resuscitate him and the battle will continue.  :)

[a great fantasy fan]

I originally thought that "His blood on the rocks of Shao guhl" (really for the LIFE of me cannot remember how you spell that, just how it's pronounced) meant simply that he will bleed profoundly, and that the "If you will live, you must die" thing meant that either he had to die, or that he would technically die, ie, the recessetated thing. Heart stops, someone does some kind of CPR on him, the heart starts up, he gets back up and resumes killing trollacs. But then i really thought about it and thought "but in this world, there is no technical way to die, to die means that you pass on to the afterlife." (or "the Dream")

 

I really didn't make much sense of the scene where Rand takes Mat out of the noose on the spear in the tree. I don't think it was as simple as just Mat's heart stopping and Rand gets his heart going again. It seemed that there was more going on there. But i dunno...

 

Need to read that part again. Where did i put that book....?

[Titan Orion]

Recently Ive convinced myself that Rand will swap bodies with Logain. Logain sacrifices himself, and because he has Rands body Rands blood flows in his veins which allows that to fulfill the prophecy. Also this fills the viewing of Rand merging with someone else, it would fulfill the prophecy of Logain stepping over Rands body that isnt really Rand, it explains how Rand will live after "dying" and it even still fits with Logains glory-who says Logains glory isnt what Rand does using Logains body?

 

Just a theory, if I admit I think the Moridin bodyswap is slightly more likely. Only slightly though

[Tel Janin]

I still believe that Alivia is going to help Rand fake his own death.  She'll stop his heart and keep his brain functions going long enough for him to be funerealized (I don't know if that was a word before, but it is now), and then he's gonna sneak off to Shayol Ghul to dance with the Dark One.  Logain's glory to come will be the fact that with Rand 'dead', he'll be proclaimed the Dragon Reborn and lead the forces of Light 'gainst the Shadow at Tarmon Gaidon.

 

But that's just my opinion; I could be wrong...

[Builder]

You can't keep someone's brain alive while the rest of the body is dead and decaying. Not to mention that it's vital for the brain to get oxygen and all that and the only way to get that is through your blood which gets pumped by your heart. Everything in your body is connected.

[Tel Janin]

You can't keep someone's brain alive while the rest of the body is dead and decaying. Not to mention that it's vital for the brain to get oxygen and all that and the only way to get that is through your blood which gets pumped by your heart. Everything in your body is connected.

 

Inverted weave Keeping and there is no decay...  Hmm?  Hmm?  Maybe?  Heck, I dunno.  :o

[Luckers]

I believe in the bodyswap. Or rather, I believe that the only theory which is permited by the various previsions set out in prophecy is the bodyswap.

 

The body swap theory is based on my attempt to address the issue of confliction of prophecy. People had come up with any number of explanations that addressed and answered individual prophecies, but the problem was that there were numerous prophecies that addressed the death of Rand. Together, they established a sequence of requirements for that incident. The complete list of those prophecies that are relevent are as follows.

Quote

EGWENE DREAMING: Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet. [ACOS: 10, Unseen Eyes, 202]

 

 

Which possibly connects to...

Quote

EGWENE DREAMING: A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important that he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness. [ACOS: 10, Unseen Eyes, 203]

 

 

And maybe this too...

Quote

EGWENE DREAMING: Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him. [TPOD: 15, Stronger than Written Law, 308]

 

Quote

MIN VIEWING: three woman standing over a funeral bier with him on it. [tEotW]

 

Quote

MIN VIEWING: I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't. [ACOS: 33, A Bath, 526]

 

Quote

MIN VIEWING: [Min]"Rand, I like Alivia, But she is going to kill you." [Rand replies]: "You said she was going to help me die… Those were your words." [WH: 25, Bonds, 483]

 

Quote

NICOLA FORETELLING: Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. [LOC: 14, Dreams and Nightmares, 255]

 

 

Which ties to...

Quote

WISE ONE DREAMING: Melaine and Bair dreamed of you [Rand] on a boat with three women whose faces they could not see and a scale tilting first one way and then the other.

 

Quote

AELFINN ANSWER: He [Rand] knew he had a chance to live, if a seemingly impossible one. If you would live, you must die. [LOC: 26, Connecting Lines, 373]

 

He had been told by those he had to believe. To live, you must die. [WH: 25, Bonds, 483]

 

Quote

PERRIN DREAMING: Mat vanished, and it was Rand. Perrin thought it was Rand. He wore rags and a rough cloak, and a bandage covered his eyes.

 

 

Which ties to...

Quote

MIN VIEWING: a beggar's staff. [tEotW]

 

 

 

In any case, individually there are answers to all. My attempt was to look at what, as a whole, they established. Too me, this sequence layed down a certain set of requirements.

 

ON RANDS DEATH.

 

1. Rand must actually die. Or, at least, some aspect of him (this ties into the definition of death in this world, which i will address later). In any case the language is fairly clear, too clear for it to be a faked death, or just people assuming he's dead in the event that he disapears. He must die.

 

2. This death must be the result of an intentional effort by himself, with Alivia's aid. Alivia will help him die. Alivia will not kill him, she will aid HIM in causing his own death.

 

3. That some aspect of himself must survive that death... and i mean that literally. It must SURVIVE, not just be resurrected or resusitated later. The language is clear, he who is dead, YET lives. The language is concurrent. He is both dead AND alive, not dead THEN alive. Note the Mat prophecy. To die and live again as a part of what was. He died, THEN he lives again. Rand dies, YET he lives. That forbids balefire too, by the way.

 

Now, death in this world is established by the death of the physical body in which a person resides. Their souls do not die at this time, yet they are still termed as dead. This has been shown many times, both in the nature of the Wheel itself, and specifically in the deaths and recycling of the Forsaken. Death=the death of the body.

 

ON THE BODY-SWAP

 

So, with those requirements in mind, lets look at some of the other prophecies, specifically those deal with Rand blending with another man, Rand putting on masks and becoming them, Rand being a beggar, and so on.

 

Now, Rand assumes that Min's viewing regarding him blending with another man refers to Lews Therin, yet at the time Min reacts with disbelief, as if something about that did not sit right with her. I suggest the possibility that it is in fact Mordin that this refers to.

 

The actual facilitating factor of the body-swap is the mental link that Rand forms with Moridin during the incident in which their balefire streams crossed in Shadar Logoth in book 7. Since then, we have seen that link grow increasingly stronger. Moreover, we have seen that the link is apparent when Rand siezes the power. Saidin is the contributing factor of the link, which is likely why Moridin has given over its use entirely, something he never did before in all his three thousand years.

 

In any case by KoD we see that the link has grown strong enough for Rand to actively percieve Moridin, as opposed to a nauseating jumble of perceptions, or a blurry half-image. I believe that it will continue to grow. Then, during the final assault at Shayoul Ghoul, i believe that Rand and Moridin will fight each other, and that Rand will sever Moridin's connection to the dark one, as he did once before. Moridin will draw on saidin, and that will complete the link resulting in the bodyswap.

 

CONCLUSION AND TIE IN

 

Now, thats all very good, and whatnot, but whats the ultimate tie in that i suggested was the reason i constructed this theory?

 

Quite simply, it fits. After this i believe that Moridin in Rands body will escape, and the Dark One will be defeated. In the epilogue we will come to Moridin, hiding as a beggar, feeling despair, yet some hope that he may yet recover things. Alivia and Rand will approach and kill him. Rand is actually dead, in the sense that this world defines death: that his body is dead. Yet he lives, and the death and the living are concurrent. Alivia and Rand collaborated in the death. He blurred with another man, and one did live and one did die. Then there is the fact that i dont see our hero ending up as a beggar at any stage, and then there is the ongoing unhealable damage that RJ is inflicting on him.

 

I dont nessasarily like the bodyswap. I just think it is the only thing that fits all the facts, and is the most likely to occur.

 

 

 

 

On the link we first hear of it from LTT.

 

Since his reappearance inside Rand's head, Lews Therin seldom went silent unless forced. The man seemed madder than ever most of the time, and usually angrier as well. Stronger sometimes, too. That voice invaded Rand's dreams, and when he saw himself in a dream, it was not always himself at all that he saw. It was not always Lews Therin, either, the face he had come to recognize as Lews Therin's. Sometimes it was blurred, yet vaguely familiar, and Lews Therin seemed startled by it, too. That was an indication how far the man's madness went. Or maybe his own. [TPOD: 21, Answering the Summons, 408]

 

I thought I could build, Lews Therin murmured in his head. I was wrong. We are not builders, not you, or I, or the other one. We are destroyers. Destroyers.  [WH: Prologue, Snow, 80]

 

You destroyed them already, Lews Therin whispered in his head. Now you have someone else to destroy, and not beforetime. How many will we three kill before the end, I wonder. [WH: 22, Out of Thin Air, 436-437]

 

At around the same time, in PoD, Rand starts experiencing the nausia when he draws on saidin, this continues until near the end of Winter's Heart when he sees the face of a man, and when he experiences the nausia without drawing on saidin. This continues until KoD when Rand finally sees the face of the man clearly and recognizes it as the face of the Wanderer from Shadar Logoth (i.e. Moridin) and doesn't experience th

 

[Mashiara Sedai]

*goggles*  That was very well thought out Luckers and very nicely written.  I am very impressed with you and that whole explination.  Good job!

 

~Mashi

[a great fantasy fan]

It fits all the facts and it seems to make some sense, but it just doesn't seem right to me.... Doesn't seem likely. It doesn't sound like RJ.

 

The two people merging thing seemed to indicate that one (probably Rand) will end up on top and the other one will die

 

I dunno maybe it's too dark for me to believe...

[MatsLuck]

Thanks for all the great responses! I'll try to respond to each in turn.

 

Mashiara- (great name btw) I'm glad you like the Horn idea. I just thought of it last night. I honestly don't know that it's that plausible, but I do think it's an interesting thought, and would be unexpected. And yes as far as Mat's role, while I love him (my fave) and love the battle-general stuff, the Horn does get overlooked I think. Also, I think when he sounds it, it will be in desperation, like Falme. The poem says "Think not of glory, only salvation" or something like that. Which leads me to believe two things. One, he will NOT be riding into TG with the horn at his side...he's not going to be able to blow it at the start of the battle. Two, at some point it is really going to look like the battle is lost for the Light. Which makes me think that whether or not the Horn/Rand's death connection is legit, it will be blown after he is dead...or everyone thinks he is. As far as Nynaeve Healing death, I just see that as a Pandora's Box I can't see RJ opening. Maybe as a one-time thing, but I still doubt it. She's my fave female though so hey, I won't complain. And the creator...I see him as hands-off. More likely if the DO won and unbalanced the world, the creator would just destroy and start over. Or something lol. And yea Alivia, I confess I'm not sure about her yet, but I'll get to that in another post.

 

Aldanath- I've heard similar theories on the podcast. It certainly is possible that the prophecy refers to them, but that doesn't address the Finns answer to Rand. It would make him go off though I'm sure, and I wouldn't mind seeing that :) Deathgates anyone?

 

Jak- I agree with you about Creator vs Dark One, and their similarities with God vs Devil. One tries to control, the other lets freedom ring. And so, there is balance, which I think is a HUGE theme in WoT. As far as Mat's death, I will address that in another post.

 

Great Fan- I like your idea about the meaning of "die". I'm wondering if the soul leaving the body is definition of death, but I'll get to that when I post my theory about how Rand may die and live again. And as stated above, Mat's hanging has always bothered me as well. Just never sat right with me. So I'll be doing a lil post about that soon.

 

Titan- I do like the body-swap theory, and my own runs along those lines, but I doubt it's Logain. Moridin seems much more likely to me. Side-note I would love to see Logain vs Taim. We've seen Rand fight plenty of big showdowns, but really no one else. Mat vs Couladin was unseen, Perrin vs Aram was over in two seconds, and Galad vs Valda was good, but Valda's not a headliner. So the closest thing is Mat vs gholam (sp?). One of my fave scenes in the series, that. I want to see some big names square off other than Rand. Hopefully some good women duels as well. Nynaeve vs Graendal? Egwene/Messana? Would be fun ;)

 

Tel Janin- I must admit I never really believed the fake death theory, but I do believe that it IS a possibility. I'm 99% sure he will die, but I do think there's a slim chance I maay be wrong on that.

 

Builder- I concur ;)

 

Luckers- Very good theory and very well thought out. Your post will take me quite awhile to respond to, so I'm going to save that for my next post, when I actually put my theory up. Mine runs along similar lines to your's, but there are a few differences. One quick comment though, while your theory works well in explaining Rand's death and living again, it doesn't say anything about how the DO is defeated. I'm not being critical, I believe the two can be two separate things. Just wondering what your thoughts were about that. Because in my theory the swap, death, and re-imprisonment are all kind of linked. I will try to get that up in the next couple days. Hopefully I'll get your thoughts on it, I like the way you think ;)

 

One last thought for everyone. Great theories all around, but one thing strikes me...What is Lews Therin's role in all this? I have to believe he's gonna play SOME part.

Thanks again to all!

[Raistlin]

I think all 3 are lnked also. Not sure how but it seems that it would fit better that way. Maybe letting lews therin sacrifice himself in rands to seal the bore after the body swap. What is left of ishydin being gone with the help of alivia.

[Luckers]

Luckers- Very good theory and very well thought out. Your post will take me quite awhile to respond to, so I'm going to save that for my next post, when I actually put my theory up. Mine runs along similar lines to your's, but there are a few differences. One quick comment though, while your theory works well in explaining Rand's death and living again, it doesn't say anything about how the DO is defeated. I'm not being critical, I believe the two can be two separate things. Just wondering what your thoughts were about that. Because in my theory the swap, death, and re-imprisonment are all kind of linked. I will try to get that up in the next couple days. Hopefully I'll get your thoughts on it, I like the way you think

 

Honestly I do not know how the Dark One will be defeated--there is not prophecy that even remotely addreses this, so i dont see how it can be addressed in a meaningful manner.

 

And my theory was never meant to address the Dark One's defeat--it only ever addressed Rand's death.

[MatsLuck]

Honestly I do not know how the Dark One will be defeated--there is not prophecy that even remotely addreses this, so i dont see how it can be addressed in a meaningful manner.

 

And my theory was never meant to address the Dark One's defeat--it only ever addressed Rand's death.

So do you think they are unrelated? If that's the case, what is the point of the bodyswap? Simply to get Rand a new body? Or fulfilling prophecy just to fulfill it? Both of those fall short for me from a storyteller/plot writer point of view. I think there has to be a greater reason behind it than just being a nice thing for Rand.

[Luckers]

They may well be related, or not. Either was its irrelevant--we are speaking of the stated prophetic realities surrounding Rand's death.

 

We don't know whether that death will be related to the Dark One's defeat. There is no information on that aspect.

[MatsLuck]

Right. Other than the prophecy about his blood on the rocks washing away the shadow, his sacrifice for man's salvation...which I have never assumed or believed meant that he had to die. It could easily just be him bleeding. My point is I don't see the bodyswap happening without some greater purpose behind it. I think it will have to be something that he needs to do. Or hell, it could just happen by accident when they fight, who knows?

[Titan Orion]

Right. Other than the prophecy about his blood on the rocks washing away the shadow, his sacrifice for man's salvation...which I have never assumed or believed meant that he had to die. It could easily just be him bleeding. My point is I don't see the bodyswap happening without some greater purpose behind it. I think it will have to be something that he needs to do. Or hell, it could just happen by accident when they fight, who knows?

 

Rand is dying in one of the dreams/visions of the future, and a funeral is being prepapred. Various others point towards what I believe to be Rand ending up in Logains body. I started a thread on it today in the Gathering Storm section, the thread is called Logain and Rand. The quotes I used in there are some of the same ones Luckers uses but I interpret the end result differently based on the viewing of Logain stepping over Rands body that isnt really Rand; I theorize that it is Rand in Logains body, laughing because hes stepping over his own corpse, later mounting a black stone; the black slopes of Shayol Ghul.

 

Either way, I think the Moridin one is still good because I like the idea of a building feud between the Dragon Reborn and the Nae'blis. I like everything about Moridin, from his appearance to the fact that he is the only True Power user, from him being Nae'blis to him becoming connected to Rand the one time he sees him as Moridin... RJ has a potentially brilliant buildup to Rand and Moridins main encounter, and if they swao bodies at the end of it I think it'd be great. I wouldnt be dissapointed at all if I was wrong about Logain, not if it ended up being Moridin as I believed for so long. I just hope Rand ends up finding out who Moridin is before the main encounter.

[MatsLuck]

I like your idea of Rand laughing while he steps over his own corpse. That would be pretty funny. But I also agree I think Moridin is the more likely suspect. I suppose my theory is less a bodyswap than a soul merging, and Moridin's True Power abilities being the need for Rand to do so. One thing I just thought of though, relating to Luckers theory...The fortelling of the three on a boat, and the dream about the same...These come after the swap. But in the dream they say they saw Rand on the boat. If he had swapped at that point wouldn't they see Moridin? Even if it was Rand inside?

[mb]

I have many different ideas/theories on many aspects of this, but here are two that just came to me. First, how do you think Rand is going to die? Assuming that he is whether he comes back after or not. Will it be a climactic power duel with Ishy backed by the Dark One? Fain's dagger in the back? A self-sacrifice, perhaps involving an inenr struggle? Lews Therin type suicide? I would love to hear some thoughts on this.

Suicide seems unlike Rand, and slight chance of that changing before Tarmon Gaidon.  Rand & the Dark One giving each other inflicting blows might be a possibility.

 

What if his death saving the world is more symbolic than literal.

Any type of salvation seems mostly symbolic.

Rand's death might have symbolic elements, yet the prophecies seem to point to a literal death.

 

Maybe Rand dies, Mat blows Horn, Wheel get broken in the mean time, Rand comes back with Horn, defeats Dark One and they all live happily ever after.

There seems a number of problems with that sequence.

Rand defeating the Dark One I think would come before or during Rand dies.

And wheel getting broken I think can only happen if the Dark One wins.  And since nothing seems to affect the Heroes called by the Horn, it seems doubtful that the Dark One would win if the Horn is blown during Tarmon Gaidon.

 

[MatsLuck]

Yea I doubt suicide in that fashion as well. A self-sacrifice I could see.

Any type of salvation seems mostly symbolic.

Rand's death might have symbolic elements, yet the prophecies seem to point to a literal death.

Yea what I was getting at with that was whether his death actually "wins" the battle or defeats DO or whether it somehow inspires the good guys to win in some way. I doubt the later, but it would be quite a surprise.

[mb]

Yea I doubt suicide in that fashion as well. A self-sacrifice I could see.

If the self-sacrifice is not a death, maybe.  A self-sacrifice that is death I see the same as suicide.

 

Any type of salvation seems mostly symbolic.

Rand's death might have symbolic elements, yet the prophecies seem to point to a literal death.

Yea what I was getting at with that was whether his death actually "wins" the battle or defeats DO or whether it somehow inspires the good guys to win in some way. I doubt the later, but it would be quite a surprise.

Rand's death winning Tarmon Gaidon, not sure.  Rand's death defeating the Dark One, maybe.  Rand's death somehow inspire good good guys to win, possibly.

Tarmon Gaidon I think could be won by the Heroes alone, unless the Dark One could destroy them (or bring up something that could destroy them).

 

[dholm]

I very much doubt it will be a literal death.