Moriane's Role in the New Books

[Mr Ares]

Because if Rand was insane, LTT wouldnt be seizing Saidin, rand would, whilst being crazy, in order to seize Saidin, you have to be conscious, by definition, 'crazy voices in your head' arent conscious. Also, many things LTT explains to rand that could only be known from the Age of Legends (what the forsaken looked like, names of certain weaves, how to do certain weaves, how to break a shield (note, he was talking about hard points and soft points before there was an option for Rands head to fill it, so that is something that is clearly completely different from anything he could imagine), and so on.

In other words, you have nothing to support your view. LTT is real, with real memories, and a real personality, but his manifestation is a form of madness.

[GoldenK]

Because if Rand was insane, LTT wouldnt be seizing Saidin, rand would, whilst being crazy, in order to seize Saidin, you have to be conscious, by definition, 'crazy voices in your head' arent conscious. Also, many things LTT explains to rand that could only be known from the Age of Legends (what the forsaken looked like, names of certain weaves, how to do certain weaves, how to break a shield (note, he was talking about hard points and soft points before there was an option for Rands head to fill it, so that is something that is clearly completely different from anything he could imagine), and so on.

In other words, you have nothing to support your view. LTT is real, with real memories, and a real personality, but his manifestation is a form of madness.

 

Whats your reason that its a form of madness... Real =/= insane... atleast in my opinion, or is your voice in your head = insane as well?

 

 

Btw, when is the first time we hear from lews therin, the earliest i can remember is at the end of the second book..

[Mr Ares]

Whats your reason that its a form of madness.

Among others, Semirhage said so.

is your voice in your head = insane as well?

Quite possibly. You don't know the sorts of things it says. But inner monologue is different to inner dialogue.

 

Btw, when is the first time we hear from lews therin, the earliest i can remember is at the end of the second book.

I don't recall anything from that book. His first manifestation would appear to be saying "Now" in TSR 10. Before destroying all the Trollocs with Callandor.

[GoldenK]

Whats your reason that its a form of madness.

Among others, Semirhage said so.

is your voice in your head = insane as well?

Quite possibly. You don't know the sorts of things it says. But inner monologue is different to inner dialogue.

 

Btw, when is the first time we hear from lews therin, the earliest i can remember is at the end of the second book.

I don't recall anything from that book. His first manifestation would appear to be saying "Now" in TSR 10. Before destroying all the Trollocs with Callandor.

 

2nd book, at Falme, when the Heroes are called, he has some of LTT's memories, because rand cannot possibly "Know all of them [the heroes tied to the horn]", that leaves LTT

[Mr Ares]

2nd book, at Falme, when the Heroes are called, he has some of LTT's memories, because rand cannot possibly "Know all of them [the heroes tied to the horn]", that leaves LTT

So, again, you have nothing.

[GoldenK]

2nd book, at Falme, when the Heroes are called, he has some of LTT's memories, because rand cannot possibly "Know all of them [the heroes tied to the horn]", that leaves LTT

So, again, you have nothing.

No, i have rand tapping into LTT's memories as early as the second book, no more, no less..

[cozmo]

She's opening a male channelers brothel, and with her help all the male forsaken turn from the shadow. ;D

[a pale tanned lover]

Because it wasn't worth responding to.

*shrugs* you say that a lot when you can't refute opinion

So, different people in completely different situations, with little resemblence are evidence in your favour now? Look at Hurin, clear cut proof of Rand's insanity. Neither Mat nor Perrin is mad. Rand is.

Oh no he isn't, you on the other hand could be. Only a madman would carry on like yourself ;)

[Mr Ares]

No, i have rand tapping into LTT's memories as early as the second book, no more, no less..

Actually, you have much less, unless you can prove these are LTT's memories. All you have is weird stuff happening and Rand knowing names.

 

*shrugs* you say that a lot when you can't refute opinion

Still saying nothing. There is nothing that needs refuting. Rand is insane, simple fact.

[GoldenK]

No, i have rand tapping into LTT's memories as early as the second book, no more, no less..

Actually, you have much less, unless you can prove these are LTT's memories. All you have is weird stuff happening and Rand knowing names.

 

do you have to argue, for the sake of arguing? They're LTT's memories.

 

[OptimusPrime]

2nd book, at Falme, when the Heroes are called, he has some of LTT's memories, because rand cannot possibly "Know all of them [the heroes tied to the horn]", that leaves LTT

So, again, you have nothing.

No, i have rand tapping into LTT's memories as early as the second book, no more, no less..

 

Rand doesnt "tap into" Lews Therin in any way, shape or form, not on a conscious level. When Rand thought of those Heroes it had nothing to do with Lews Therin despite the fact that the Heroes call him that. Rand identified the Heroes he knew and when he thought "all of them" he didnt think of all of them individually, he recognised a few and judged the ammount of Heroes present, coming to the conclusion that all of them were there. We didnt have Rand scanning through the Heroes face by face, as GoldenK seems to think, we had Rand doing that thing people do when taking note of more than one person at once. If you know a load of people from a place and you see a crowd which includes many of those people, you can assume they are all there, especially if someone blew a Horn that is supposed to summon them. Rand used his common sense all by himself, without any past life knowledge being involved.

[GoldenK]

2nd book, at Falme, when the Heroes are called, he has some of LTT's memories, because rand cannot possibly "Know all of them [the heroes tied to the horn]", that leaves LTT

So, again, you have nothing.

No, i have rand tapping into LTT's memories as early as the second book, no more, no less..

 

Rand doesnt "tap into" Lews Therin in any way, shape or form, not on a conscious level. When Rand thought of those Heroes it had nothing to do with Lews Therin despite the fact that the Heroes call him that. Rand identified the Heroes he knew and when he thought "all of them" he didnt think of all of them individually, he recognised a few and judged the ammount of Heroes present, coming to the conclusion that all of them were there. We didnt have Rand scanning through the Heroes face by face, as GoldenK seems to think, we had Rand doing that thing people do when taking note of more than one person at once. If you know a load of people from a place and you see a crowd which includes many of those people, you can assume they are all there, especially if someone blew a Horn that is supposed to summon them. Rand used his common sense all by himself, without any past life knowledge being involved.

 

What are you talking about?

 

He specifically mentions he knows them by names that noone in his time calls them, and some had names 'He didnt recognize as names at all'

 

Thats definitely someone elses memories, and unless there's someone else in his head.. it leaves Lews Therin.

[mb]

Still talking about Lews Therin in Rand's head being from the Taint?

That is still hard to believe.

 

All we have is a discussion and the fact that saidin channelers have different symptoms from it.

Yet Semirhage did not say it was from the Taint, only that he was/is insane.  And she only mentioned voices and implied memories; she does not mention (or imply) the extra abilities nor the person taking over.

 

Semirhage implying the Taint, we cannot be certain about that right now.

Cadsuane I think would know more about the Taint than any other saidar channeler because of being around much more taint-infected saidin channelers than any other; and Cadsuane only mentioned voices.  No other symptoms get mentioned in her and Rand's discussions; nor in her memories.

 

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Are we discussing it being caused by the Taint, or by Lews Therin being in Rand's head as insane? I thought we were arguing about whether Rand was insane because he heard Lews Therin in his head or not.

[Cherise]

In our current age, a psychologist would certainly certify Rand as insane for hearing voices. Agreed.

 

However, the tension in the story is that we readers know Rand is not really insane. LTT is really there.

 

I think it is the pattern, not the taint, that put LTT in Rand's head.

[Hybrid]

Are we discussing it being caused by the Taint, or by Lews Therin being in Rand's head as insane? I thought we were arguing about whether Rand was insane because he heard Lews Therin in his head or not.

Considering that the thread is titled "Moriane's [sic] Role in the New Books," I think any pretense of staying on topic has long since vanished.  ;)

 

Cadsuane I think would know more about the Taint than any other saidar channeler because of being around much more saidin channelers than any other

Besides Graendal, Semirhage, Cyndane, Mesaana, and Moghedien, of course.

 

Personally, I think that just because Semirhage mentioned it does not mean that she is lying.  At the same time, it does not necessarily mean she is telling the truth.

 

From the New York Barnes and Noble signing on January 7, 2003:

 

Q:The question is, with Rand and LTT, do they have 1 soul or 2 souls in the body?

A: They have 1 soul with 2 personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I [cobbled] together.

RJ's quote on the matter is rather inconclusive.  All that it says is that there are two personalities, but whether the LTT personality evolved from Rand's insanity and the memories Semirhage mentioned or was there all along is a matter of interpretation.  I believe in the former, but I think it can be interpreted either way.

[Mr Ares]

do you have to argue, for the sake of arguing? They're LTT's memories.

You have no evidence of that.

 

However, the tension in the story is that we readers know Rand is not really insane. LTT is really there.

Actually, we readers know that Rand is really insane, and that LTT is really there.

[OptimusPrime]

Yes, Rands insanity IS the fact that Lews Therin really is in his head. Lews Therins consciousness should have stayed dead, but because of the rare madness Rand has, Lews Therins mind has become active again even while Rands is still active. And because both are active, the barrier between them weakens.

[Cherise]

I say it's Rand's taveren-ness at work.

 

What about the Rand-Mat-Perrin connection? If they think about each other, they start to see where the others are, and what they are up against. This is going to be awesomely helpful in battle someday, if they learn to use it instead of being afraid of it. Yet by the logic I have seen used to say Rand is insane, this connection makes Mat and Perrin insane, too. I don't buy it.

[mb]

I say it's Rand's taveren-ness at work.

 

What about the Rand-Mat-Perrin connection? If they think about each other, they start to see where the others are, and what they are up against. This is going to be awesomely helpful in battle someday, if they learn to use it instead of being afraid of it. Yet by the logic I have seen used to say Rand is insane, this connection makes Mat and Perrin insane, too. I don't buy it.

The most recent discussion in this thread was Lews Therin in Rand's head.  It seems very doubtful that Rand's taverenness put Lews Therin there.

And the visions of the other taveren are different from the Lews Therin situation.  Though some might consider those as hallucinations which could be a form of insanity.

 

[Mr Ares]

Yet by the logic I have seen used to say Rand is insane, this connection makes Mat and Perrin insane, too. I don't buy it.

According to the logic you've seen, if Rand being mad is a sign of being mad, something completely unrelated to his insanity is a sign of madness? It's not ta'veren.

[muddasssir]

well ppl u have started irritating me why don't u all get off ur high horses and stop biting each other u sound like women's circle meeting in a closet but seriously what's the point of whole discussion if no one wants to hear what somebody else is saying and no body wants to credit any body else with intelligence then this whole exercise is pointless

[OptimusPrime]

Debates about Lews Therin irritate me.

 

No matter how much people read this series they still hang on to Rand somehow hearing LTTs voice as something positive, as something that happens to him just because he is the saviour, typical fantasy style. No matter how hard you ram the real explanation down someones throat they still hold onto that.

 

Imagine that in your soul, there is still a remnant of your past life, a remnant that is pulled to the surface if you contract a certain type of madness. And once you get that madness, your past lifes memories start mixing with your own. Thats whats happening to Rand. You can deny it all you want but every shred of evidence in the books points to it. Thats how Rand knows Forsaken faces. Eventually, you hear the past lifes voice in your head much like you hear your own thoughts. And eventually the past life starts reacting to what it sees, to what you see. Again, thats what happens to Rand, it is the way he broke out of the box and it is how Lews Therin suggested making Egwene invisible.

 

There!

[Cherise]

it is the way he broke out of the box and it is how Lews Therin suggested making Egwene invisible.

 

 

 

Those are both good things.

 

What is bad about it?

[OptimusPrime]

Dude if you cant see the problem with Rand and Lews Therins minds mixing together then maybe you need to think a bit harder. The examples I gave just happen to benefit Rand. Half the time Rand cant tell between his own crap and Lews Therins, and Rand isnt even bothered by that anymore. Lews Therin is a madman, and as you have no doubt seen Lews Therin can sometimes grab hold of the Source through Rand. That might not mean much to you but it would mean something to you if Rand stood next to you, with Lews Therin in control of the Source. Rand isnt even in control, meaning there is an even greater chance of everything within 500 feet going BOOM.

 

You cant see whats wrong with it, Cherise? Would you trade scraps of knowledge when the side-effects could make you lose control and end up killing everyone in sight?