Moriane's Role in the New Books

[EramofAmandous]

It is stressed in more then one place that Graendal is the expert in mental illness.

 

What I want to see is Semi in a collar with Nynaeve holding the leash. That should be interesting.

[OptimusPrime]

Your whole argument is based on one line from Semi. That makes you opinionated. You have no direct quotes from Graendal. Savvy?

 

My "arguement" existed before KoD was published. I had Lews Therin down as Rands madness way before Semirhages line confirmed it. Dont drag yourself into this arguement AGAIN, you will just lose AGAIN, because you never provide any sort of alternate theory that might shoot this one down. You sent me a private message saying you had an alternative theory on why Rand hears Lews Therin but you said we would probably still disagree. If you have an alternate belief, post it. In the mean time you can start finding real reasons to disgree with other peoples ideas and also find some balls and take the risk of your own crap being shot down. I did, so does everyone else. It looks like you're disagreeing for the sake of it when you dont put any of your own beliefs out there.

[Majsju]

It is stressed in more then one place that Graendal is the expert in mental illness.

 

 

She is however not an expert in mental issues caused by the taint, and that is something important to keep in mind.

[OptimusPrime]

It is stressed in more then one place that Graendal is the expert in mental illness.

 

 

She is however not an expert in mental issues caused by the taint, and that is something important to keep in mind.

 

The Taint isnt all-important here at all because we have seen several different reactions to the Taint. It has contributed to Rand hearing Lews Therin, but it is not the sole contributor and the fact that Graendal has encountered this type of madness already, without studying Rand, means shes very unlikely to see anyone else with that same madness this side of the Dark Ones prison, meaning she must have met someone or some people with this madness before the Taint existed. The Taint can cause different mental problems, and the madness type Semirhage/Graendal talk of is rare and is about exclusive to the Taint as my third middle finger.

 

[Shard]

I think it's more the case that the Taint induces madness but not always the same kind of madness in each person. If a person was to develop a disorder the Taint brings that disorder out whatever it may be. That's why each reaction has been different, Rand's madness has always been there but it was the Taint that brought the disorder on. Both Semriage and Graendal are aware of these mental illnesses and know which one Rand is suffering from. This may actually point to Lews Therin not being real in the end but a second personality that Rand has developed in his head.

[EramofAmandous]

Yeah but madness is madness. I don't think there is anything different about Taint induced madness. It maybe come on quicker and be more severe, but the madness is still gonna have the same symptoms. One of my close friends has schizophrenia so I have some experience with those types of ppl. 

[Shard]

Yeah but madness is madness. I don't think there is anything different about Taint induced madness. It maybe come on quicker and be more severe, but the madness is still gonna have the same symptoms. One of my close friends has schizophrenia so I have some experience with those types of ppl. 

 

That's pretty much what I meant, only that the Taint will insure said madness occurs in the person.

[OptimusPrime]

Yeah but madness is madness. I don't think there is anything different about Taint induced madness. It maybe come on quicker and be more severe, but the madness is still gonna have the same symptoms. One of my close friends has schizophrenia so I have some experience with those types of ppl. 

 

That doesnt give you any insight on the Taint though. I lived with a close friend who used to self harm because of "the things hes done" and that doesnt give me insight into how Rand hates himself for using people or blames himself for hundreds of women dying for him. My friend didnt have hundreds of women dying for them and he didnt have us running about saving the world either.

 

I think it's more the case that the Taint induces madness but not always the same kind of madness in each person. If a person was to develop a disorder the Taint brings that disorder out whatever it may be. That's why each reaction has been different, Rand's madness has always been there but it was the Taint that brought the disorder on. Both Semriage and Graendal are aware of these mental illnesses and know which one Rand is suffering from. This may actually point to Lews Therin not being real in the end but a second personality that Rand has developed in his head.

 

Agreed, I also reckon the Taint brings out problems depending on the person, that if a male channeler was vulnerable to any particular sanity issue channeling through the Taint would encourage those issues. I am also skeptical over whether or not Ta'veren was involved in Rand having the only type of madness that lets him recognise his enemies when he would have absolutely no other way to find that out in the whole world. And that at the end of KoD, channeling through the Taint caused the Lews Therin situation to progress faster than it might have otherwise. I admit there is speculation in here, but I feel that it fits. Of course, it could be wrong but Im not worried, the Taints influence isnt the backbone of my beliefs regarding Lews Therin.

 

I personally disagree that theres a possibility that Lews Therin will turn out to not be real. I personally think that if the voice wasnt real it couldnt have taught Rand things of the Power that work, couldnt have taken over the Source in KoD, and wouldnt have coincedentially been called Lews Therin and pulled up facts from the AoL like the Power stuff, Ilyenas name, and the list if Forsaken names and faces together with personality traits, all of which has been verified by people from the same time as who the voice claims to be. The fact that Lews Therin reacts to what Rand sees doesnt aid this theory in itself, but I think the way he reacts does. KoD provides a good example for my point; when the army of Shadowspawn turn up, Lews Therin seizes the Source and channels stuff Rand didnt even know about, stuff that just happened to be good enough to do his portion of Shadowspawn killing with the other channelers. Very Lews Therin if you ask me. Any other time Lews Therin revealed knowledge of the Power it was him telling Rand how to do something, not him doing it himself. For Rand to have been able to throw Deathgates about, Lews Therin would have had to mention it first and he didnt. Granted, Rand came up with stuff on his own at the start, if not deliberately, but that is neither here nor there. Lews Therin could channel but not move Rands hands. A fake voice/coinsciousness could do neither, and a split personality like we see in modern times could do both. Lews Therin acts like neither, which is another reason I put weight in Semirhages explanation.

 

I believe its a split incarnation which progresses with the madness. The line that seperates the current incarnation-the current personality-from the old one begins to thin, causing traits to pass across; too many of these traits are too close to what we expect and know of Lews Therin for it to not be a real voice. I think Rand would act a lot more like himself if Lews Therin had never been in his head, because I believe that the majority of Rands issues stem from the rare madness type, causing Lews Therin to seep into him, and the Taint encourages this as well as any other problems Rand might have. Another example, I think Rands claustrophobia probably wouldnt be as bad as was mentioned in another thread, if it wasnt for the Taint. Cant remember who quoted the scene though.

 

That was longer than I expected.

[Ishmayl]

I reckon when Cadsuane teaches Rand to laugh and cry, Moiraines return will-or damn wel should-be the first time we see him cry. And her return should shatter the list.

 

I haven't read all these posts yet, but this is my thought, and has been since book 11.  Rand finally recognizing his humanity again is when he sees Moiry walk up to him after some big battle.  Breaks down and weeps like a little girl is my thoughts.

[Mr Ares]

I am more inclined to think that the ability to do drawings & Lews Therin's gaining control are not insanity/madness because neither are mentioned by the 'experts' (Cadsuane/Semirhage/Graendal) in memories or in discussions.

But those experts do cite LTT as a real voice as being a form of madness. And what does the Taint cause? Madness.

[mb]

I am more inclined to think that the ability to do drawings & Lews Therin's gaining control are not insanity/madness because neither are mentioned by the 'experts' (Cadsuane/Semirhage/Graendal) in memories or in discussions.

But those experts do cite LTT as a real voice as being a form of madness. And what does the Taint cause? Madness.

The voice they mention, but not those other symptoms.  One part being madness/insanity does not necessary make the other parts also.

Also; even though there is difference among other saidin channelers, there seems not much difference in the mentioned symptoms.

 

Again, a merge seems to better explain Rand's situation because it has actual examples that have similar symptoms.

 

[OptimusPrime]

I am more inclined to think that the ability to do drawings & Lews Therin's gaining control are not insanity/madness because neither are mentioned by the 'experts' (Cadsuane/Semirhage/Graendal) in memories or in discussions.

But those experts do cite LTT as a real voice as being a form of madness. And what does the Taint cause? Madness.

The voice they mention, but not those other symptoms.  One part being madness/insanity does not necessary make the other parts also.

Also; even though there is difference among other saidin channelers, there seems not much difference in the mentioned symptoms.

 

Again, a merge seems to better explain Rand's situation because it has actual examples that have similar symptoms.

 

 

I think the reason the other symptoms havent been mentioned is because Graendal is the only qualified person who can clarify anything at all, and her conversation with Semirhage/Lanfear probably didnt cover anything other than the voice being real. Also, Semirhage wanted to reveal Rands madness so his followers will worry about it. All she needed to know was what she said in KoD in order to do what she wanted.

[a pale tanned lover]

I had Lews Therin down as Rands madness way before Semirhages line confirmed

Your opinion then?

Dont drag yourself into this arguement AGAIN, you will just lose AGAIN

I never lost actually, check the posts, you proved nothing.

because you never provide any sort of alternate theory that might shoot this one down. You sent me a private message saying you had an alternative theory on why Rand hears Lews Therin but you said we would probably still disagree.

Yes I did, but considering you are stating as fact that Rand is mad, and using it as a reason to back up other theories you have, then it's quite pointless, lack of evidence both ways, just opinion so please don't state your opinion as a fact.

and also find some balls and take the risk of your own crap being shot down.

I have had some stupid theories, and they have been heavily shot down, rightly so.

In the mean time you can start finding real reasons to disgree with other peoples ideas

As opposed to peoples opinions? i'm not the only person who disagrees with you.

 

[Mr Ares]

Again, a merge seems to better explain Rand's situation because it has actual examples that have similar symptoms.

No, it doesn't. Which leaves us with the only answer we have: madness.

[OptimusPrime]

 

Again, a merge seems to better explain Rand's situation because it has actual examples that have similar symptoms.

 

 

Rand and Lews Therin arent becoming one, they are becoming alike. They arent merging, their minds are changing to reflect the others and Lews Therins consciousness is becoming stronger, attaching itself to Rands body in the exact same way Aran'gars PoV hint towards-once in a new body it takes time to adjust, and the fact that a consciousness already exists in Rand body means Lews Therins presence had to become much stronger in order to, say, bypass Rand and grab the Source.

 

The Rand and another merging and one dying doesnt involve Lews Therin at all if you ask me. I think if the Lews Therin storyline reached its end, we would have Lews Therin in control (Rand calling himself Lews Therin, like in Moiraines letter) and Rand would be the voice. Rand wouldnt be dead any more than Lews Therins consciousness is now, which leads me to Lews Therin not being a candidate for the merge from Mins viewing.

[mb]

Again, a merge seems to better explain Rand's situation because it has actual examples that have similar symptoms.

No, it doesn't. Which leaves us with the only answer we have: madness.

So far there are no other examples where madness was the cause.  Merging does have other examples with similar symptoms.

 

[Mr Ares]

Again, a merge seems to better explain Rand's situation because it has actual examples that have similar symptoms.

No, it doesn't. Which leaves us with the only answer we have: madness.

So far there are no other examples where madness was the cause.

So far there are no other examples. I've told you that before, and shot down your examples.

[OptimusPrime]

Can someone explain why Rand acted like he did when Taim appeared and gave him the Seal? Why did Rand start acting like Lews Therin and nearly break the Seal, when he knew damned well how important the Seal was? Why would Rand start acting in accordance with the rants of Lews Therin at that exact moment, if not for a loss of control of himself, ie madness?

[Phariah]

Can someone explain why Rand acted like he did when Taim appeared and gave him the Seal? Why did Rand start acting like Lews Therin and nearly break the Seal, when he knew damned well how important the Seal was? Why would Rand start acting in accordance with the rants of Lews Therin at that exact moment, if not for a loss of control of himself, ie madness?

possession...  ;D

LTT took partial control of Rand ;)

 

[a pale tanned lover]

Can someone explain why Rand acted like he did when Taim appeared and gave him the Seal? Why did Rand start acting like Lews Therin and nearly break the Seal, when he knew damned well how important the Seal was? Why would Rand start acting in accordance with the rants of Lews Therin at that exact moment, if not for a loss of control of himself, ie madness?

Someone who channels and is a soul reborn could explain it i think ;D

[nigelski]

Until we have an account of what happened on the other side of the door, we cannot conclude whether either of them were severed/burned-out or not.

Severed then being Healed might have happened to Lanfear/Cyndane; yet other possibilities have not been ruled out.

 

A marriage with Thom seems likely because of these scenes:

-Moiraine's certainty of Thom being alive when going through the Ways & her reference to Min's Viewings during same conversation.

-Moiraine knowing the face of the man she will marry when speaking with Elayne/Egwene/Nynaeve in Tear.

-Moiraine's certainty that Thom would survive Tanchico when speaking with him just before they leave Tear.

 

I tend to agree, and would add this; Mat recieved three boons for the asking, why not Moiraine?  If indeed she was severed, that would seem a trifling request for the wish fulfilling finns to grant.  As for her knowledge, it is possible she gleaned it while inside the doorway at the Stone in Book 4.  I recall that questions asked regarding one's own fate are always answered truthfully--did she squander one on marriage? 

 

[mb]

Again, a merge seems to better explain Rand's situation because it has actual examples that have similar symptoms.

No, it doesn't. Which leaves us with the only answer we have: madness.

So far there are no other examples where madness was the cause.

So far there are no other examples. I've told you that before, and shot down your examples.

Merging with someone of the same soul has not yet been disproven in the books.

 

[OptimusPrime]

Can someone explain why Rand acted like he did when Taim appeared and gave him the Seal? Why did Rand start acting like Lews Therin and nearly break the Seal, when he knew damned well how important the Seal was? Why would Rand start acting in accordance with the rants of Lews Therin at that exact moment, if not for a loss of control of himself, ie madness?

possession...  ;D

LTT took partial control of Rand ;)

 

 

And how is it he can do that? Why is Lews Therin real? It is called madness because Rands mind doesnt have full control over everything it should. If you look at someone who has a split personality (fake or otherwise) in modern times we would call it a mental issue. In medievil times they would call it madness.

 

Can someone explain why Rand acted like he did when Taim appeared and gave him the Seal? Why did Rand start acting like Lews Therin and nearly break the Seal, when he knew damned well how important the Seal was? Why would Rand start acting in accordance with the rants of Lews Therin at that exact moment, if not for a loss of control of himself, ie madness?

Someone who channels and is a soul reborn could explain it i think ;D

 

Rand didnt know about it. Maybe I should ask Graendal, except that would be pointless because if she re-confirmed my theory you would say she was lying because thats the Forsaken nature and they cant possibly reveal true information to their enemies, even when doing so would serve their plans. Let alone fit with 10 books worth of Rand PoVs.

[Mr Ares]

I tend to agree, and would add this; Mat recieved three boons for the asking, why not Moiraine?

What's in it for the Eelfinn? Why should they bargain with her?

 

Merging with someone of the same soul has not yet been disproven in the books.

Nor does it have any examples in the book, making it completely unsupported.

[Terror405]

Moiraine's bond to Lan was severed. We know of two things that will sever a warder bond - death (and we know she isn't dead), and being severed from the TS. So that leaves one explanation.

 

That could be so but then again, how many Aes Sedai have fallen into completely new dimesions like Moiraine did? Being in a place like Finnland might sever the Warder bond.