Sa’angreal and Circles

[t-bag]

I was wondering how powerful a full circle of the maximum number of men and women all using the most powerful sa'angreal, including the Choedan Kal, would be. I do not even know if a circle can use sa’angreal.

This may seem a strange question but did Lanfear tell Rand that with the Choedan Kal they could challenge the Dark One. I am sure that Rand mentions that he feels he could destroy the world (break creation?) with the male Choedan Kal.

So if Lanfear thinks she and Rand can do all this what could this full circle do?

[Majsju]

Yes, a circle can use a sa'angreal. We see it done at the Cleansing, for example.

[mb]

About Choedan Kal, I think that was if the male one & female one were used together.

 

The strength of channelers linked, I guess it would be the strength of the person directing the flows plus some percentage of the others' strengths.

The books do not tell an exact amount.

 

[arkinia]

How exactly would you measure a circle of such a description? Is there a unit of measure? I mean Rand said he could explode the world so would you say a circle could explode multiple worlds? Challenge two Dark Ones? How much of the power would that take? Ten gallons? Four tons? Twelve square miles? What kind of answer are you looking for? It can't be "really powerful!"

 

I don't see many feats beyond destroying the world and challenging the Dark One. What could anyone tell you they could do?

[t-bag]

I realise that there is no answer to this question, unless you measured the size of a gateway that could be created, can a stronger channeler create a larger gateway? I was just pondering the subject and wanted to know others thoughts on the subject. A better question might be what couldn’t this circle do. I suppose this question comes from the power of the Creator. If the Dark One’s power is the True Source  is the Creators power the One Power? Is the Creator a very powerful channeler who knows infinite weaves. If this is the case then could a circle like this come close to the Creator?

[arkinia]

Did you just ask could something come close to infinity?

[t-bag]

I see, sorry, I meant in power. This was just a theory about the Creator.

 

[Majsju]

The True Source = Saidin & Saidar, ie the One Power.

The DO uses the True Power.

[Chance]

Actually, I've wondered about this same question. It took Lews Terin and 100 companions to seal the bore on the strike at Shayol Ghul. Now take these 100 channelers and insert Callendor and the Choden Kal, and every other angreal etc. It would be interesting. It does take men and women linked to expand the circle. How big it can get, I don't think has ever been said. I think a lot of it depends on the people in the circle, they have to get along, trust each other, in some fashion. And the men and women in Randland don't seem to do that very easily.

[t-bag]

True Power, I knew it was something like that, thanks.

'The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time' states that the biggest circle would be 72, 35 men and 37 women.

[Mandragoran]

I was wondering how powerful a full circle of the maximum number of men and women all using the most powerful sa'angreal, including the Choedan Kal, would be. I do not even know if a circle can use sa’angreal.

This may seem a strange question but did Lanfear tell Rand that with the Choedan Kal they could challenge the Dark One. I am sure that Rand mentions that he feels he could destroy the world (break creation?) with the male Choedan Kal.

So if Lanfear thinks she and Rand can do all this what could this full circle do?

To what extent would a sa'angreal magnify the entire circle? It would allow the person wielding it to contribute an increase in power proportional to his/her strengths. The circle and the person leading it would be able to use those flows but every other member's own contribution would be limited to their individual strengths. The combined flow is not as great as the sum total of individual flows according to the books.

 

We saw examples of angreal use in circles when Aes Sedai, Kin & Windfinders used the Bowl of Winds with Nynaeve, Elayne & Aviendha using angreal. And at various attempts at healing Mat but we don't know much about those.  When Callandor was used during the cleansing at Shadar Logoth, I'm sure the 2 sisters contributed a comparatively minor amount of Saidar to Narishma's Saidin. Rand and Nynaeve each had one Choedan Kal in their circle.

 

We've never seen a full circle of men and women so we can't be sure of their combined strength. Or how they would compare to one of their members using a Choedan Kal. The rebel hall sitters who proposed linking with men did so fearing the amount of Saidar they felt at the cleansing. Then again Rand's use of the only surviving access key produced a much, much greater amount of Saidin.

 

 

[balefireruinssteaks]

we'll probably see more circles of men and women now that the Red Ajah has decided to bond men, and there has already been mixes happening from the Black Tower.

 

Note, too, that the effectiveness of a circle did not depend on combining people of vast strength, but rather combining the right people with the right skills.  Some smaller circles were considered much more powerful than larger circles with more powerful channelers.  So a circle of 72 might be bested by a smaller circle who can weave faster and more dexteriously.

 

I think if you went by raw strength, using a circle of the 72 most powerful channelers and giving them each the 72 most powerful sa'angreal existing...then perhaps the resulting Power might be enough to unravel the entire Age Lace.  It's probably not unlimited but you would definitely have the power of a god.

[t-bag]

This topic should be called ‘is there a limit’

 

Is there?

[t-bag]

Or, more precisely, is there a limit of weave knowledge or strength in the power?

 

[JenniferL]

Weave knowledge? Yes. A human mind can only know or process so much. Channeling strength? I honestly don't know. We know that it can be amplified to insane degrees using sa'angreal and by linking. I think the scale of amplification would resemble a J-curve, getting close to, but never quite reaching maximum.

[mb]

Limit on channeling strength, that would probably be with the biggest circle.

The biggest circle is 72 channelers.  Find the 72 strongest channelers, and you would probably have the strongest circle of the generation.