Did he, or didn't he?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Ummmmm -

 

There's a lot of unfounded assumptions being expressed here.

Also, Lews Therin DID become sane, at least for as long as it took him to die. Obviously he was Healed.

 

What makes you believe he was anymore sane when he died than he was when we first meet him?  Suicide is not a sane choice.

 

Or maybe Ishy Compelled LTT to believe he was Healed, and then gave him this batch of false memories!

;D

Which would have done jack to an insane person.

 

Now we have another expert on sanity/insanity.  What is your basis for making such a statement?  How do you know what effect Compulsion or any other weave would have on somebody suffering  LTT's particular condition?

 

I brought up this point because, as I said, if Luckers is correct, mental problems cannot be healed.  If they can't be healed, then Ishy had to have done something else to LTT.

[Majsju]

 

 

I brought up this point because, as I said, if Luckers is correct, mental problems cannot be healed.  If they can't be healed, then Ishy had to have done something else to LTT.

 

I can not recall Luckers having ever said such a thing. And if he actually did (which I do not believe for a second), he was wrong.

 

Ishy Healed LTTs insanity. LTT killed his family. That is a fact that is not open for interpretation. Except for a certain kind of people who deliberatly misinterpret the books over and over again, just to annoy people...

[Luckers]

There is a confusion here--Bob cited my comment about Graendal not using the Power to heal mental illness--in his defence I did state that baldly, but against him i stated it in a specific context.

 

I was specifically referencing this comment from the BWB about Graendal "Dedicated to curing those with mental illness that the One Power and Healing could not touch, she was possibly the best at subtle manipulation of the human mind that ever lived."

 

My initial comment was only intended to be about whether Graendal's strength played a part in her success as a psychologist, and her subsequently gaining the third name. It did not.

 

My comments were bluntly stated, so i can see why this would be confused. Indeed, looking back, i would reword them.

 

 

However, what Ishamael did was utterly different to what might have been done with the Power. He even states that Aes Sedai would only be able to give a few moments of sanity--his healing was the True Power.

 

[Majsju]

I can not see how what you wrote in any way can be used as evidence for the claim that if it can not be done with OP, it can not be done with TP. Unless the misinterpretation is done deliberatly.

[Luckers]

Honestly, i dont either. But i was quite firm in my initial statement--to another point--but still firm.

[dholm]

Ummmmm -

 

There's a lot of unfounded assumptions being expressed here.

Also, Lews Therin DID become sane, at least for as long as it took him to die. Obviously he was Healed.

 

What makes you believe he was anymore sane when he died than he was when we first meet him?  Suicide is not a sane choice.

I wasn't referring to his decision to commit suicide. I was referring to his behavior up till that point.

 

Or maybe Ishy Compelled LTT to believe he was Healed, and then gave him this batch of false memories!

;D

Which would have done jack to an insane person.

 

Now we have another expert on sanity/insanity.  What is your basis for making such a statement?  How do you know what effect Compulsion or any other weave would have on somebody suffering  LTT's particular condition?

Think, man. Compulsion compels. You might very well be able to use Compulsion on an insane person, but they would still be insane. Who is to say how an insane man might react to Compulsion? You would have to be an expert of Graendal's level to use Compulsion on an insane person. Even insane people usually have a warped sense of logic; you would have to know what that entails to use Compulsion properly.

 

I brought up this point because, as I said, if Luckers is correct, mental problems cannot be healed.  If they can't be healed, then Ishy had to have done something else to LTT.

You misunderstood what Luckers meant. Mental illnesses can be Healed; just not all of them. Graendal's proficiency was with understanding mental illnesses and using subtle Compulsion to bring them to a semblance of normality. She could do this even to those who could not be Healed via the One Power.

[mb]

Or maybe Ishy Compelled LTT to believe he was Healed, and then gave him this batch of false memories!

Compulsion I think can not give false memories (nor any other kind of weave).

 

[Majsju]

Or maybe Ishy Compelled LTT to believe he was Healed, and then gave him this batch of false memories!

Compulsion I think can not give false memories (nor any other kind of weave).

 

::)

Pick up an english dictionary, and look up the word 'sarcasm'.

[Dmitri]

Or maybe Ishy Compelled LTT to believe he was Healed, and then gave him this batch of false memories!

Compulsion I think can not give false memories (nor any other kind of weave).

 

::)

Pick up an english dictionary, and look up the word 'sarcasm'.

 

That won't work with mb, checked quite a few times  ;)

 

[Majsju]

Or maybe Ishy Compelled LTT to believe he was Healed, and then gave him this batch of false memories!

Compulsion I think can not give false memories (nor any other kind of weave).

 

::)

Pick up an english dictionary, and look up the word 'sarcasm'.

 

That won't work with mb, checked quite a few times  ;)

 

 

If he will learn the 100th time, it would be foolish to risk stopping the attempts the 99th time, yes? ;D

[arkinia]

Or maybe Ishy Compelled LTT to believe he was Healed, and then gave him this batch of false memories!

Compulsion I think can not give false memories (nor any other kind of weave).

 

I wonder what compulsion does exactly. We know what it does in general, but not exactly how it works? I wish we had a Point of View or something of someone being Compelled to know what they are feeling or thinking or what they think they are feeling or thinking or if they are even aware of being Compelled etc. Like is it straight up mind-control or are they just forced to mindlessly do what they are told? I think that would be an interesting read, but I'm worried we will not see one and then I will be left wondering!

[dholm]

We have seen several. Liandrin (TFoH, Chapter 18 and 34) and Elayne (TSR, Chapter 46) (and flashbacks from Nyneave (TSR, Chapter 52)) by Moghedien. Alteima (TFoH, Chapter 1) and Morgase (TFoH, Chapter 19) by Rahvin.

[fikkie77]

Don't forget Elza, Black Ajah, being compelled by Verin to serve the Dragon Reborn. I find that the most interesting of all, because there you see what happens if compelling and oaths (or own free will) contradict: she forms her own reasoning why serving the Dragon Reborn helps serving the Dark One. She even kills a Forsaken to do that.

[arkinia]

We have seen several. Liandrin (TFoH, Chapter 18 and 34) and Elayne (TSR, Chapter 46) (and flashbacks from Nyneave (TSR, Chapter 52)) by Moghedien. Alteima (TFoH, Chapter 1) and Morgase (TFoH, Chapter 19) by Rahvin.

Yeah, but apparently they were not interesting enough for me to remember!

[dholm]

Don't forget Elza, Black Ajah, being compelled by Verin to serve the Dragon Reborn. I find that the most interesting of all, because there you see what happens if compelling and oaths (or own free will) contradict: she forms her own reasoning why serving the Dragon Reborn helps serving the Dark One. She even kills a Forsaken to do that.

I disregarded Elza mainly because we know from Verin's own point of view that her weave is not true Compulsion, just as Liandrin's was not. Verin's is the more powerful, but it is also incredibly slow and complex, and yet flawed -- she thinks that the people she used it on had to form their own reasonings for the things she Compelled them to do, or it would not work.

[Danielle Mosvoni]

Forsaken can alter memories. Nynave and Elayne in Fires of Heaven...Grendal and Lanfear have both made comments of making men beieve they had sex as well.

[dholm]

Via Compulsion, yes. There was no need for Ishamael to lie about healing Lews Therin if he used Compulsion on him, however. It's possible that he could cure Lews Therin's madness through Compulsion, as Graendal certainly could, though I think it extremely unlikely.

[Danielle Mosvoni]

I would love to believe Lews didn't kill his family at all. It's difficult but would love it. I could believe Ishy faked his shock...Made Lews believe he was sane, and if I recall EVEN THEN Ishy was trying to turn Lews. Dark One all sealed up and Ishy was still trying to turn Lews. Maybe it was a game of Ishy's to get Lews to the point od despair and just simply utter the words of allegience to the Dark One so he could have his wife back from the dead. And I can also believe Ishy didn't think Lews would use that moment of Fake or Real sanity to destroy himself. I suppose had he used balefire then in reality his family would still be alive...unless it wasn't by Lews hand then they would still be dead.

That make any sence? With the Forsaken I don't know what to believe.

[dholm]

Balefire wouldn't have created Dragonmount. Lews Therin simply drew too much of the Power -- and kept on going until there was nothing left.

[Majsju]

Via Compulsion, yes. There was no need for Ishamael to lie about healing Lews Therin if he used Compulsion on him, however. It's possible that he could cure Lews Therin's madness through Compulsion, as Graendal certainly could, though I think it extremely unlikely.

 

One small problem with that...Compulsion does not work on male channelers, at least not if they hold Saidin.

[Danielle Mosvoni]

Lews wasn't holding onto the Power when Ishy "healed" him...was he? My earlier post was just vauge assumptions. I do recall RJ described "something" comming down from the sky to destry Lews but it was so early in the series I'm not even sure RJ knew about balefire yet. I believe it was described as liquid fire or something like that. Didn't that same suicidal mission create Dragonmount AND the Tar Valon Island? Pretty strong whatever it was.

[mb]

Forsaken can alter memories. Nynave and Elayne in Fires of Heaven...Grendal and Lanfear have both made comments of making men beieve they had sex as well.

Can alter memories?  I think actually alter what the victim believes about its memories, not alter the victim's memories; there is a difference.

 

About balefire, I think it can only affect the things it hits; and that it vaporizes those things, not create things.

I take Lews Therin only created Dragonmount, not also the island.

 

[fikkie77]

The prologue of TEOTW says that as a result of Lews Therin's act, not only Dragomount appeared, but that the river's course changed and that an island was created (Tar Valon).

[Kadere]

Just to be perfectly clear Lews Therin did NOT balefire himself. But yes, the creation of the mountain split the river and created the island of Tar Valon.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

 

I brought up this point because, as I said, if Luckers is correct, mental problems cannot be healed.  If they can't be healed, then Ishy had to have done something else to LTT.

 

I can not recall Luckers having ever said such a thing. And if he actually did (which I do not believe for a second), he was wrong.

 

Ishy Healed LTTs insanity. LTT killed his family. That is a fact that is not open for interpretation. Except for a certain kind of people who deliberatly misinterpret the books over and over again, just to annoy people...

 

Then you and Luckers need to talk, because, as in most things, your memory is rather faulty:

How would strength in the power help Ishamael write philosophical treatise? Or aid Graendal with her psychological endevours (its stated that the power could not help with illnesses of the mind). We also know that strength in the power--nor indeed having the ability to channel--gained you political power so Be'lal, Demandred and Lews Therin are out. And of course healing is a talent which is irrespective of strength (as proved by Sumeko) so Semirhage is done.