Who is stronger?

Nightstrike · June 25, 2009

There is nothing that says that it must be the correct one.
Nothing that says it isn't. If we are told Lanfear is the strongest woman, possibly second strongest Chosen and probably as strong as it's possible for a woman to be, then why should we disregard that when we have nothing to the contrary? It might not be much to go on, but a little is better than nothing. Until we have evidence to challenge her provisional placement as second strongst Chosen, we should accept that she is. That is my standard of evidence. Because the evidence leans in one direction. Again, cease the pretence of knowing my standards of evidence, because clearly you don't. The mere fact of having standards of evidence beyond what you want to be true is a start. If the scant evidence we have suggests she is strongest woman, possibly second strongst, then unless and until we have a reason to challenge that placement we accept it. Because to deny what little we have by way of evidence does us no favours.

If we can question information given in the series, then why can't we question information given in the Big White Book? What makes the information given there any more reliable than any other information? "Possibly the second strongest chosen", that's the right way of saying it. It also means that it's possible that she isn't the second strongest Forsaken. We don't know that she is as strong as it's possible for a woman to be. What evidence do we have to disregard? Aren't you the one looking for absolutely 100% certain TRUTHS, and NOTHING that could be interpretated any other way - EVER!!! And then you say "if the scant evidence we have", as if it's suddenly not your mission in life to question EVERYTHING in every possible (and impossible) way. If we're gonna question everything that can be questioned, then we can't know much. Certainly not anywhere near as much as you've claimed in the past.

I said that he very well could be. There's a difference, you know.
And no relevance either way, because, as you might know if you read what I wrote, rather than just what you would like me to have written, is that we cannot place him. Anywhere. Your comments are irrelevant.

My comment was that we cannot place him. Anywhere. Obviously the ones that provided the text in the BWB couldn't give any info on his strength, either. That means that it's possible that he is stronger than Lanfear, Aginor and a lot of other Forsaken. A possibility for a character to have "lied" is enough for you to dismiss the whole thing. Therefore, logically, anything else of dubious nature (including most of the Forsaken & AoL info in the BWB) must be dismissed as evidence. Meaning, we know next to nothing. All according to the Teachings of Ares.

Mr Ares · June 27, 2009

What is difficult to understand?

Your attempts at english. As for the rest of your post, what is the problem? We are given evidence to place certain people, and none to contradict it, therefore it is a reasonable working list in the absence of contradictory evidence. Many of your placements lacked supporting evidence, making them just random wishful thinking - Graendal stronger than Moghedien for example. We have nothing either way, so we cannot place them. But we are told Lanfear is the strongest woman, so we can accept that she is until we have reason not to, and that she is the second strongest Chosen until we have reason not to. Because we are given reasons to think that in the first place. No contradiction, outside of that you wish to imagine. If you actually read what I wrote, not your fantasy vesion of what you wished I wrote, you would see that.

Here is another study of inconsistent thinking:

It is possible to partially hide strength in the Power, at least for women.

Yes, but not to fake strain - "to overflowing". Aginor was insulted when Rand said that his Gateways would "take too much time".

How do you know that?

…, or something happened that has no evidence to support, that has not been so much as hinted at over the course of eleven books. Eleven books with not a clue to support it, against a theory supported by evidence. Which does your background tell you is more reasonable to support? I take it you have heard of Occam's Razor?

Where is the inconsistency? I say women can do something, so it is plausible men can too, you say it is impossible to fake strain, I ask you to support your claim. You can't, because there is nothing to support the claim. There is evidence to support the possibility of faking a maximum strength - we've seen it done. Lanfear, in the WT, disguised as a novice, yet no-one comments on her obscene strength? Not to mention the RJ quote on the matter. On the other hand, you made the claim that has no evidence to support it. Typical of you. You're wrong, Nightstrike. Accept that and stop. This is just masochism on your part.

If we can question information given in the series, then why can't we question information given in the Big White Book?

We can, when we have reason. When we have reason. You never understood that, did you? No matter how many times I say it, you just can't take it in. If we are told something and have no reason to challenge it, why should we? If we have reason to challenge it, do so. We have no real reason to challenge the placements I have made on Chosen strength, but those you make are just random guesses, with nothing to support them. They fall apart like a poorly made house of cards after even the slightest scrutiny.

Aren't you the one looking for absolutely 100% certain TRUTHS, and NOTHING that could be interpretated any other way - EVER!!!

Firstly, as that is a question, it should end with a question mark. Secondly, the answer is no. I'm not the one looking for absolutely 100% certain truths and nothing that could be interpreted any other way, I'm looking for placements we can make with a reasonable degree of certainty with supporting eivdence - hence, Ishy, Lanfear, Aginor. Reasonable certainty. Not absolute. Demandred above Aginor? Unsupported, no reasonable certainty. Graendal above Moghedien? Semi and Mesaana equal? Both unsupported, so while they are possible, we don't have a reasonable degree of certainty, yet you state them as facts. It is equally possible that Semi and Mesaana are at different strengths, that Graendal and Moggy are the same or even that Moggy is the stronger of the two. You lack any evidence to make claims, yet you do so anyway. You never understood my points or my methods, so it is unsurprising that you consistently misinterpret them, and make yourself look foolish in the process.

My comment was that we cannot place him. Anywhere.

Funny, that was my point too. So we cannot put him anywhere, and s must disregard him for the purposes of this. We have no degree of certainty to any placement. Are you prepred to actually try and understand my point, or will you just talk rubbish again? Maybe respond with the same page of irrelevant quotes that you've used however many times before? Whatever you do, I'm sure you will be more than capable of making yourself look an idiot while doing it.

Nightstrike · June 27, 2009

As for the rest of your post, what is the problem?

You've stated the problem. You did. Read the two quotes I provided.

We are given evidence to place certain people, and none to contradict it, therefore it is a reasonable working list in the absence of contradictory evidence.

First of all, we WERE given something that I used to think was contradictory evidence. But now, since I'm a follower of the Teachings of Ares, I can see that there is no evidence that cannot be questioned. Secondly, we have no "evidence" that places them anywhere. The BWB is a dubious source at best. Not good enough, according to the teachings of Ares. Try reading the preface. I highly recommend it, especially since you've trusted everything else in the BWB so far.

We have nothing either way, so we cannot place them.

Yes, I can see that now. The Light of Ares has opened up my eyes.

But we are told Lanfear is the strongest woman, so we can accept that she is until we have reason not to, and that she is the second strongest Chosen until we have reason not to.

What now, "until we have reason not to". We have no reason to believe that she is the second strongest chosen. BWB say "POSSIBLY". That is not a fact of Ares. Nowhere near.

Where is the inconsistency? I say women can do something, so it is plausible men can too, you say it is impossible to fake strain, I ask you to support your claim.

Faking something and hiding something is not the same thing (very few women could hide strength). We've never heard that faking strain can be done. Asmo never told Rand about it. Aginor was insulted when Rand thought his Gateways were too small. You made something up to support your personal preferance, and you can't even prove that it can be done. Even worse, you can't prove that Aginor would know. Occam's Razor having holiday, right?

We can, when we have reason. When we have reason. You never understood that, did you? No matter how many times I say it, you just can't take it in.

So, are you telling me you're not just the boss of Occams' Razor, but that you're the boss of all evidence as well. You decide when we should disregard something, and when we shouldn't. That's wonderful.

If we are told something and have no reason to challenge it, why should we?

But, that's what you're doing all the time. You claim people lie to themselves, lie to each other, may be misinformed, or whatever... You claim information could be wrong, so it's not good for proof. But the dubious information in the BWB should be trusted as proof. In fact you're claiming things like "Demandred is definately not stronger than Aginor".

If we have reason to challenge it, do so.

We always have reason to challenge it when you say so. Often you're even inventing new things & new situations to explain why things shouldn't be accepted as fact. Challenge it, but only on YOUR say so - that's the principle.

My comment was that we cannot place him. Anywhere.
Funny, that was my point too. So we cannot put him anywhere, and s must disregard him for the purposes of this. We have no degree of certainty to any placement. Are you prepred to actually try and understand my point, or will you just talk rubbish again? Maybe respond with the same page of irrelevant quotes that you've used however many times before? Whatever you do, I'm sure you will be more than capable of making yourself look an idiot while doing it.

Yeah, that was funny. Especially since you claimed that what I was saying was "irrelevant". But, the conclusion is simple - we don't know that Lanfear is the second strongest chosen & we don't know that Aginor is the second strongest man. What can we be sure about? I don't know. You're always having a good time when you're a disciple of Ares.

Mr Ares · June 27, 2009

You've stated the problem. You did. Read the two quotes I provided.

There's no problem there, Nightstrike, save that which exists solely in your diseased mind.

First of all, we WERE given something that I used to think was contradictory evidence.

No, we weren't.

But now, since I'm a follower of the Teachings of Ares

No, you're not. You claim you are, but you are still a follower of the teachings of Nightstrike: Talk shite, keep talking shite, keep talking shite.

The BWB is a dubious source

But it is a source, and it is evidence.

Not good enough, according to the teachings of Ares.

No, according to the teachings of Mr Ares (my name does still have a Mr, get it right, you twat) it is enough. Unless we have something to contradict it, to say that something it says is wrong, we can accept it. A few errors are no reason to toss the baby out with the bathwater.

Try reading the preface.

Try shutting the hell up and reading something other than what you'd like people to have written.

What now, "until we have reason not to". We have no reason to believe that she is the second strongest chosen. BWB say "POSSIBLY".

That is a reason. Try reading what you wrote you self-contradictory, little halfwit. Do we have a reason to believe she isn't? No. Therefore, we can speculatively place her.

Faking something and hiding something is not the same thing (very few women could hide strength).

You base any of that on what evidence? It may be unknown now, but we have no reason to elieve it is difficult. And we don't know what form a man hiding his strength would take, if it was possible.

Asmo never told Rand about it.

Asmo was a piss-poor teacher, and he didn't tell Rand anything he didn't ask to be told for a long time, but we still don't know the bulk of what he taught Rand.

Aginor was insulted when Rand thought his Gateways were too small.

Are you ever going to get around to a quote? You quoting skills so far have been shown to be highly dubious, at best. More accurately, you just copy out something a bit like what the books say, and interpret it to mean whatever you want.

So, are you telling me you're not just the boss of Occams' Razor, but that you're the boss of all evidence as well.

I'm telling you nothing of the sort. And your question lacks a question mark, and Occam's Razor should have the apostrophe before the s. If we have no reason to disregard something, it is idiotic to do so, hence your fondness for it.

You claim people lie to themselves

RJ claimed that. The authority on the series. Backed up by a quote from the man himself.

lie to each other

Because they do, we see it in the books.

may be misinformed

We see that time and again in the books.

You claim information could be wrong

Because we see time and again it could be, but I only disregard it with reeason. You do so on a whim. Now, cease your trolling, vermin.

But the dubious information in the BWB should be trusted as proof.

No, it should be treated as evidence in the absence of anything to contradict it. How many times before that point sinks through that solid bone of yours?

Especially since you claimed that what I was saying was "irrelevant".

It was irrelevant. We cannot place Be'lal, so bringing him up is irrelevant, especially as I had already dealt with him being unplaceable.

But, the conclusion is simple - we don't know that Lanfear is the second strongest chosen & we don't know that Aginor is the second strongest man.

No, but the evidence we have currently says they are, and unless and until we have reason to ignore it, we should stick with those few placements we can actually make and not give in to wish-fulfilment.

What can we be sure about?

Your continued stupidity.

Nightstrike · June 27, 2009

My favorite 3 quotes right now:

Mr Ares

Re: One Power strength

« Reply #263 on: January 20, 2009, 04:11:36 AM »

A thought: male average strength sits slightly higher than female. Yet Aes Sedai average is skewed, because they have a minimum strength - Aes Sedai average could well be higher than male average strength, even if female average is lower. So there is good reason to expect plenty of men below AS average, especially when they have yet to reach their maximum.

Mr Ares