Moiraine's Husband

[mb]

Yet Moiraine would not even give a hint of marrying if she was not to marry.

She did not.

'I could wager I know the face of the man I will marry better than you know your future husbands'; those words I count as hinting at marriage, and her later response 'Should I choose a man'.  Also, she was not surprised when Egwene asked her if she was ever in love. 

 

There are ways to keep a secret without lying.

And yet, if this imaginary viewing actually happened, Moiraine did lie.

Moiraine lied?  Certainly not in the discussion with the girls.  I doubt in the letter to Thom.  Not telling information is not lying.

Since Moiraine was/is bound to the First Oath, lying about marriage could only come from belief in the lie; and it seems doubtful that she would believe in something that is/was unsupported unless she was under Compulsion, and she did not show signs of Compulsion in any of those discussions.

 

[Majsju]

'I could wager I know the face of the man I will marry better than you know your future husbands'; those words I count as hinting at marriage, and her later response 'Should I choose a man'.  Also, she was not surprised when Egwene asked her if she was ever in love.

 

That is not a hint, that is Moiraine making a point. If Moiraine is hinting at anything, it is that she thinks the wondergirls have more important things to focus on than some blokes.

 

Moiraine lied?  Certainly not in the discussion with the girls.  I doubt in the letter to Thom.  Not telling information is not lying.

 

Have you actually read the letter? It goes further than not telling information, she flat out states that there are other possibilities than her getting rescued. Possibilities that can not exist if Mins imaginary viewing actually happened.

 

Since Moiraine was/is bound to the First Oath, lying about marriage could only come from belief in the lie; and it seems doubtful that she would believe in something that is/was unsupported unless she was under Compulsion, and she did not show signs of Compulsion in any of those discussions.

 

Uhm, what has that to do with anything?

The only relevant belief Moiraine may or may not have, is the belief in Mins ability. And if Moiraine does not believe in Mins ability, it would be quite impossible for her to "hint at marriage" the way you think she did in TSR.

[mb]

Telling of other possibilities I do not count as lying; it would be lying if she says that those are the only possibilities.

 

 

Mentioning her Novice wishes instead of saying "I could wager..." I think would have been more probable if she was not to marry.

 

[Majsju]

Telling of other possibilities I do not count as lying; it would be lying if she says that those are the only possibilities.

 

For this imaginary viewing to come true, the rescue of Moiraine must be successful, and Thom must survive the whole thing, and get out of finnland. If such a viewing actually had happened, and Moiraine did believe in Mins ability, any outcome of the event that does not see Moiraine and Thom alive and free once the smoke clears are impossible. Claiming that they ae possibilities is thus a lie.

 

 

Mentioning her Novice wishes I think would have been more probable if she was not to marry.

 

 

Eh, what?

[mb]

Mentioning her Novice wishes I think would have been more probable if she was not to marry.

Eh, what?

I edited the statement.

The Novice wishes I refer to Siuan mentioned in their discussion in Great Hunt.

 

[Majsju]

Mentioning her Novice wishes I think would have been more probable if she was not to marry.

Eh, what?

I edited the statement.

The Novice wishes I refer to Siuan mentioned in their discussion in Great Hunt.

 

 

What Siuan says is completely irrelevant here.

Looking at Moiraines choice of words, that is a brilliant example of how Aes Sedai can deal with the Oath against lying, much along the same lines as Moiraine saying 'You can call me' instead of 'My name is'.

Had Moiraine said 'I know the face of the man I will marry', it would have been a lie. Her actual choice of words works to achieve the same effect, but without lying, because she only says she would wager, not that she would win such a wager.

 

And the reason Moiraine is doing is is to make a point. She is not exactly sitting there opening her heart to the girls, she is trying to shake them out of their moping, because they have a job to do, and they should focus on the job, and not their teenage love misery.

[Rhalurn]

Again i think you guys are reading too far into it, personally i think it was just a glib comment. Even if it wasn't, do you think for one minute Moraine thought that Rand (who at that point was eventually to go mad) and Lan (bonded to Moraine until his or her death, which usually ends with death for the warder either way) would actually get the oppurtunity or want to marry the two.

 

One theory i have to add to the bundle is, Moraine knows the face of her husband, because she won't have one. Therefore the certainty is that she indeed does know who she will marry - nobody. Remember she is a blue, who dedicate theirselves to causes. She has spent her entire aes sedai life trying to find Rand and win tarmon guidan (sp). As much as i like the gleeman, i don't think they should get married. Too many marriages for my liking.

[mb]

Had Moiraine said 'I know the face of the man I will marry', it would have been a lie. Her actual choice of words works to achieve the same effect, but without lying, because she only says she would wager, not that she would win such a wager.

Making the statement without feeling she could win such a wager, I think there would be slight chance of that.

 

Something like one of the following (or some kind of combination of them) being told to the girls I think might be more probable if she was not to marry:

-"Long ago I dreamed I would marry, yet there seems sight chance of that now."

-"When I was a Novice I wished that I would marry, yet there has been no one."

 

 

Like I told earlier, Moiraine was not surprised when Egwene asked her about being in love.

Also, she appeared to regret her response when Egwene asked who.  It seems unlikely that she would regret (or appear to regret) the response if she was not to marry.

 

Whether or not Min had such a viewing, Thom's & Moiraine's marriage does seem part of the Pattern because their attitudes toward each other.  Slight chance they would feel such toward each other if their marriage was not planned.

 

[Majsju]

One of the following (or some kind of combination of them) being told to the girls I think might be more probable if she was not to marry:

-"Long ago I dreamed I would marry, yet there seems sight chance of that now."

-"When I was a Novice I wished that I would marry, yet there has been no one."

 

Moiraine would never say such a thing. It is not in her character, and it is not in RJs style of writing. I think RJ would rather have quit writing than put such horrible sentences in a book.

 

 

Like I told earlier, Moiraine was not surprised when Egwene asked her about being in love.

 

How do you know that?

Thing is, there was no reasn for Moiraine to be surprised, because Egwene acted exactly as expected. She is a teenager, being confronted by a grown woman, big wonder she throws a small tantrum.

 

Also, she appeared to regret her response when Egwene asked who.  It seems unlikely that she would regret (or appear to regret) the response if she was not to marry.

"Seems to regret" is not the same as actually regret. And even if she did have a bit of regret, there are a lot of possible reasons for that, other than 'Oh the noes! I gave away the big secret that the outcome of TG depends upon!'

 

Whether or not Min had such a viewing, Thom's & Moiraine's marriage does seem part of the Pattern because their attitudes toward each other.  Slight chance they would feel such toward each other if their marriage was not planned.

 

You know, peopla have managed to fall in love without the Pattern having anything to do with it. If people needed a viewing from Min to get there, depopulation would be a huge problem in Randland.

[The Doctor]

She might just realize how flighty young girls are and think they will fall in and out of love over the course of their growing up... thus thinking they have no idea at all of the face of the man they will marry, which would be less than the idea she might have even if it was only a slight inkling, and up for grabs between 3 men.  None of course being less than very little.

[Discomandavis]

These are all great theories, but I am afraid I am going to have to crush them all. Me and Moraine are getting married next week. She knows my face well because we have been betrothed since I was a wee lad and she a wee lass. Leave your adress and I'll be sure to get you invite!

[Tel Janin]

These are all great theories, but I am afraid I am going to have to crush them all. Me and Moraine are getting married next week. She knows my face well because we have been betrothed since I was a wee lad and she a wee lass. Leave your adress and I'll be sure to get you invite!

 

Tel Janin Grymm

666 Shayol Ghul Plaza

The Blight

[mb]

Whether or not Min had such a viewing, Thom's & Moiraine's marriage does seem part of the Pattern because their attitudes toward each other.  Slight chance they would feel such toward each other if their marriage was not planned.

You know, peopla have managed to fall in love without the Pattern having anything to do with it. If people needed a viewing from Min to get there, depopulation would be a huge problem in Randland.

I did not say that a Viewing was needed for people to become in live (nor any other kind of predictor).  I only told that Thom's & Moiraine's becoming in love was due to the Pattern.

Their becoming in love does seem due to the Pattern since Thom formerly disliked Aes Sedia and since Moiraine spent most of her time in causes.  And it would be doubtful that the Pattern would not make them in love with each other if it did not plan their marriage.

 

 

[Dark Justice]

you think the pattern "forced" Thom and Moiraine into falling in love?

 

:D

[mb]

you think the pattern "forced" Thom and Moiraine into falling in love?

Probably "caused" instead of "forced".

 

[Discomandavis]

Why are we still talking about this after Moraine and I's announcment?

[Phariah]

the pattern could be considered in control seeing has how Min can see the pattern in her viewing  ;)

as Min states later her viewings had never failed before Moiraine seeing as she saw Moiraine an Thom getting married and she considers Moiraine dead so she has hope that her viewing of Rand can fail  :-X

and Moiraine knew of her own fate  for the fact of the letter to Thom , and why else would Thom go to save her unless he cared deeply for her  ;D

[Dark Justice]

well.. the pattern causes everything to happen..

[Discomandavis]

The Shadow Rising pg. 195

conversation between thom and moraine.

"I quiet life would kill you, I think." Sounding distinctly amused, she busied herself rearranging the folds of her skirt with small, slender hands. He had the impression she was hiding a smile. "Tanchico will not, however. I guarantee that, and by the First Oath, you know it for truth."

 

This is just after she went to doorway in the Stone to ask questions. This implies that she asked a question about Thom, because she is so sure. Also it seems like subtle flirting from Moraine.

[mb]

The Shadow Rising pg. 195

conversation between thom and moraine.

"I quiet life would kill you, I think." Sounding distinctly amused, she busied herself rearranging the folds of her skirt with small, slender hands. He had the impression she was hiding a smile. "Tanchico will not, however. I guarantee that, and by the First Oath, you know it for truth."

 

This is just after she went to doorway in the Stone to ask questions. This implies that she asked a question about Thom, because she is so sure. Also it seems like subtle flirting from Moraine.

Being so sure could have also came from being told of a Viewing.  Slight chance of Moiraine asking about Thom if she knew of his future from a previous source.

And there would be a chance that such a question would have been frivolous.