Our new heroes.

[Mr Ares]

before the war of power doesn't say much. how long before?

Unknwon, but a long time.

 

the heroes have been tied ever since they existed (presumably), so how would people summon them if the horn didn't exist for as long as the heroes?

They wouldn't. They are tied to the Wheel, not the Horn, the Horn was simply created to tap into an already existing mechanism.

[Thor]

what makes you think humans can tap into power of the wheel?  if they can do that why don't they just use the wheel to seal back the dark one since the do threatens the wheel's existence?

 

your make belief is most pathetic.

[Phariah]

i can see Logain becoming a hero especially if he achieves the" glory to come" ;)

seeing what Lan an Moraine have done an gone thru they might be possible heroes to be  ;D

and as for Olver he could be a key in the Mat/Tuon outriggers and achieve some reputation  8) ( i mean imagine what he will know in 10 years lol, atm he is getting knife fighting ,swordsmanship , archery , hand fighting ,ect.. all from his "uncles " , and Mat , lol and Light knows what he is learning from Thom, Julian , Noal and even possibly from Aludra  :o ) and i would love to see Olver as a male channeler "sparker " also  ;)

 

 

[Mr Ares]

what makes you think humans can tap into power of the wheel?  if they can do that why don't they just use the wheel to seal back the dark one since the do threatens the wheel's existence?

 

your make belief is most pathetic.

Trolling again, I see.

 

i can see Logain becoming a hero especially if he achieves the" glory to come" ;)

seeing what Lan an Moraine have done an gone thru they might be possible heroes to be  ;D

and as for Olver he could be a key in the Mat/Tuon outriggers and achieve some reputation  8) ( i mean imagine what he will know in 10 years lol, atm he is getting knife fighting ,swordsmanship , archery , hand fighting ,ect.. all from his "uncles " , and Mat , lol and Light knows what he is learning from Thom, Julian , Noal and even possibly from Aludra  :o ) and i would love to see Olver as a male channeler "sparker " also   ;)

Wouldn't it be quicker just to list the people who you don't think will become Heroes?

[Owners.Inc]

what makes you think humans can tap into power of the wheel?  if they can do that why don't they just use the wheel to seal back the dark one since the do threatens the wheel's existence?

 

your make belief is most pathetic.

 

The "Power" of the Wheel is the One Power. Its has been stated explicitly, that the One Power was used to create the universe and drives the Wheel of Time. I would think humans are mildly capable of tapping into the OP, wouldn't you?

 

And yes, they did use the OP to seal the DO. Have you been reading the books? Or were you being sarcastic? Cos I totally missed it.

 

i can see Logain becoming a hero especially if he achieves the" glory to come" ;)

seeing what Lan an Moraine have done an gone thru they might be possible heroes to be  ;D

and as for Olver he could be a key in the Mat/Tuon outriggers and achieve some reputation  8) ( i mean imagine what he will know in 10 years lol, atm he is getting knife fighting ,swordsmanship , archery , hand fighting ,ect.. all from his "uncles " , and Mat , lol and Light knows what he is learning from Thom, Julian , Noal and even possibly from Aludra  :o ) and i would love to see Olver as a male channeler "sparker " also   ;)

 

 

 

Too many people for a single Age, let alone a century.

 

1.) Something I wanted to point out: A lot of people have mentioned that there are only a hundred or so heroes of the horn. However, it is a known fact (as shown by Rand/LTT) that if a soul is currently in possession of a body (i.e. is reborn) he/she will not be summoned by the horn. its possible that in anticipation for the biggest throwdown in the Last few Ages, the Wheel spun out heroes at specific points to assist Rand. it is therefore plausible that Mat and Perrin (or perhaps even Egwene/Mor) are heroes.

 

However, this does bring up the question of why hawkwing did not address them with any familiarity when he appeared at Falme. At first I thought it might be one of those percepts, but Hawkwing clearly showed no hesitation in naming Rand as LTT.

 

The only possible resolution I can think of is this: perhaps Hawkwing knew somehow that it was not time for Mat and Perrin to know their true positions. After all, Mat's reluctance to assume his role as taveren is important in several ways to the plot. But I'll fully accept that this is a weak excuse.

 

2.) Now, let's continue theorizing. Hawkwing (hereby called HW cus I'm as tired of typing sa you guys are of reading this) names Rand as LTT right? But why would he refer to Rand as LTT specifically? By that I mean, why not name him from a previous life (a life b4 LTT)? Or better yet (since that line of questioning would never end) why not refer to him as 'Dragon' or 'The Champion of the Light' or something generic like that.

 

Ok, maybe he felt that Rand would associate most closely with the name LTT. But what about the others? Gaidal Cain for example. Common folk know of Gaidal Cain. Is that really his name? I would think so since Birgitte refers to him by this name always. If Gaidal Cain had that name only in his last rebirth, why would Birgitte call him that even in TAR where they all have perfect memories of past lives? More importantly, why would she repeatedly refer to him by the same name, despite knowing him from countless incarnations?

 

I think I've made a mess of explaining this, but I hope someone out there got what I'm saying...

 

EDIT: Actually, I'm not sure that they have perfect memories in TAR. Can someone back this up, one way or another?

 

3.) Last point (I promise). Why are there so few Heroes? i mean a 100 heroes across  unknown ages? Is there a Heroes of the Horn Retirement Home?

 

My point is, when these people become heroes is supposedly because they are truly epic people. my issue here is this: how epic can any human be in a lifetime? There is an upper limit to epic-ness in a lifetime, people. Its hard to believe that there were only a 100 epic people in say 100 ages. i'm assuming here that at some point they were not Heroes of the Horn (although this assumption might seriously be flawed if we think about the circular nature of time in this series.) Anyways, if we follow this assumption, then what could they possibly have done in their lives to bind themselves. Perhaps as importantly, what could they have done that can rival being one of the major players in the Last Battle?

 

Ok that's it. Thanks for putting up with this.

 

[Mr Ares]

But why would he refer to Rand as LTT specifically?

 

What about the others? Gaidal Cain for example.

Habit of referring to each other by their last name, perhaps. Gaidal, Birgitte and Lews Therin being their last incarnations, therefore the names they are known by.

 

EDIT: Actually, I'm not sure that they have perfect memories in TAR. Can someone back this up, one way or another?

Not perfect, as I recall Birgitte saying that even in her earliest memories she remembered already having lived many lives.

 

Why are there so few Heroes?

Because not many are needed. Remember, it takes more than simple heroism. Considering that they are part of the Pattern's self-correcting mechanism, they presumably need to show that they are something that will be useful for that purpose, not just this time by in Ages to come. A too general role can be filled by anyone.

 

Perhaps as importantly, what could they have done that can rival being one of the major players in the Last Battle?

That might be an important role this time, but will it be in the next? The one after? Or maybe the Dragon will need a different set of skills in his assistants next time.

[Phariah]

too many for an age? eh maybe , but who is to say ?do you know how many heroes are allowed in an age ? or how many can be chosen from an age to become a hero? not all ages produce or maybe even need a hero, what if only the greatest of ages produce heroes and most other ages might get a recycled hero or 2 if they need? i have no idea ,but this Age appears to have quite a few that can be candidates

[Owners.Inc]

That might be an important role this time, but will it be in the next? The one after? Or maybe the Dragon will need a different set of skills in his assistants next time

 

You're probably right on that one. I was thinking though, what if there are only a hundred heroes being summoned by the horn, because those are the ones left.

 

All the other heroes are already active in Randland as I type. Its possible...unlikely though.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Why are there so few Heroes?

Because not many are needed. Remember, it takes more than simple heroism. Considering that they are part of the Pattern's self-correcting mechanism, they presumably need to show that they are something that will be useful for that purpose, not just this time by in Ages to come. A too general role can be filled by anyone.

 

Couldn't really anyone be a Hero summoned by the Horn though? Seeming as how they're all virtually invincible and are endowed with some kind of supernatural powers beyond that. Birgitte taking down an entire Seanchan ship with a super arrow and such. So couldn't anyone be given such powers? I don't think we really know enough about the Horn or it's origins as of yet. Maybe we'll get more info in the last books?

[dholm]

But why would he refer to Rand as LTT specifically?

 

What about the others? Gaidal Cain for example.

Habit of referring to each other by their last name, perhaps. Gaidal, Birgitte and Lews Therin being their last incarnations, therefore the names they are known by.

We don't know that this is true. Birgitte, at least, has led many lives in the Third Age, as she recounts them rather often. I'm certain Rand, Gaidal and Artur Hawkwing have been spun out several times as well -- the fact that they are tied to the Pattern does not mean that they have to be "held back" for that purpose. After all, if the Pattern suddenly needs a hero, it can either use the ones already living (if they aren't too old), kill them off so they can get reborn again quickly, or just spin someone else out.

 

It is possible that those names are simply the incarnation where they were last "needed" by the Wheel... though that would seem rather odd in the case of Hawkwing. Then again, why exactly did he need to be ta'veren?

 

I personally believe that both Mat and Perrin will become tied to the Wheel after this, if they aren't already (though the scene in The Great Hunt certainly implies they aren't). I don't feel that this is "dooming" them in any manner whatsoever -- everyone gets spun out eventually. This is simply a specialized form of it. They aren't aware of their prior history when they get spun out, so they don't know themselves, and others won't, either.

 

I could see Mat's ashandarei, his hat, and his scarf becoming repeated accessories, similar to Birgitte and her silver bow and golden braid. Possibly Perrin's beard and his hammer, as well.

 

You could explain our stories of Thor, Tyr and Odin in that way -- they were previous incarnations of Perrin, Rand and Mat, respectively. :p Same thing would obviously hold true for any other influence RJ has drawn upon.

[Mr Ares]

too many for an age? eh maybe , but who is to say?

Anyone who takes note of the vast discrepancy between everyone and his dog becoming one in the Third, and about a hundred becoming Heroes in all the previous turnings of th Wheel.

 

You're probably right on that one. I was thinking though, what if there are only a hundred heroes being summoned by the horn, because those are the ones left.

There being others who are already spun out is not unreasonable, but I wouldn't have thought there would be many if they have been.

 

Couldn't really anyone be a Hero summoned by the Horn though?

Being summoned by the Horn is not what the Heroes are for.

 

We don't know that this is true.

Just very, very likely.

Birgitte, at least, has led many lives in the Third Age

And if one of those was as someone other than Birgitte, she didn't make much of an impact as everyone remembers Birgitte.

I'm certain Rand, Gaidal and Artur Hawkwing have been spun out several times as well

They have been. But not necessarily in this Age. Gaidal, yes - he's teamed with Birgitte, she comes out after him, so if she's had a lot of lives he has too. But I doubt there was another Dragon between Rand and LTT, nor another Hawkwing since APT.

the fact that they are tied to the Pattern does not mean that they have to be "held back" for that purpose.

Yes, it does. It's what they're for.

 

I personally believe that both Mat and Perrin will become tied to the Wheel after this

I very much doubt it.

 

I could see Mat's ashandarei, his hat, and his scarf becoming repeated accessories, similar to Birgitte and her silver bow and golden braid. Possibly Perrin's beard and his hammer, as well.

We don't know whether they are repeated accessories.

 

You could explain our stories of Thor, Tyr and Odin in that way -- they were previous incarnations of Perrin, Rand and Mat, respectively.

Or distorted versions of this Rand, Perrin and Mat.

[dholm]

We don't know that this is true.

Just very, very likely.

I don't agree.

 

Birgitte, at least, has led many lives in the Third Age

And if one of those was as someone other than Birgitte, she didn't make much of an impact as everyone remembers Birgitte.

Remember that they know about the Heroes of the Horn -- anyone who "fits" Birgitte would, in stories, be Birgitte reborn. It makes sense to give a single name to such an entity.

 

I'm certain Rand, Gaidal and Artur Hawkwing have been spun out several times as well

They have been. But not necessarily in this Age. Gaidal, yes - he's teamed with Birgitte, she comes out after him, so if she's had a lot of lives he has too. But I doubt there was another Dragon between Rand and LTT, nor another Hawkwing since APT.

Why? Is there a specific reason you believe this? The frequency which Birgitte must have been spun out to know pretty much all the major highlights of the past Age suggests differently.

 

the fact that they are tied to the Pattern does not mean that they have to be "held back" for that purpose.

Yes, it does. It's what they're for.

Then please explain Birgitte's case.

 

I personally believe that both Mat and Perrin will become tied to the Wheel after this

I very much doubt it.

Any reason other than your dislike for the process?

 

I could see Mat's ashandarei, his hat, and his scarf becoming repeated accessories, similar to Birgitte and her silver bow and golden braid. Possibly Perrin's beard and his hammer, as well.

We don't know whether they are repeated accessories.

We know Birgitte's are. Thom mentions it. "For some reason, every story about her mentions the bow and the braid", or something to that effect. He knows she is tied to the Wheel. Though he adds that he might have found some which were about her, which didn't include them.

 

You could explain our stories of Thor, Tyr and Odin in that way -- they were previous incarnations of Perrin, Rand and Mat, respectively.

Or distorted versions of this Rand, Perrin and Mat.

Doubtful. The stories Thom references -- Mosk and Merk, Elsbet -- as well as the Mercedes symbol in the Panarch's museum are too specific to be simply the previous incarnation of our Age. Unless you're arguing that each Age is similar enough to the previous incarnation of that Age to have specific details that are the same?

[Rinkai]

If the wheel of time turns for infinity, shouldn't there be and infinite number of heroes if they are constantly being added. It sounds to me that there is a way to be discharged from the wheel. Maybe you get spit out and disgrace your cause. Also, did the characters see any heroes that they did not recognize? If not, I think its curious that heroes from waaaaay back when aren't present. Maybe once you're forgotten you are free.

[Mr Ares]

I don't agree.

It is still true whether you agree or not.

 

Remember that they know about the Heroes of the Horn -- anyone who "fits" Birgitte would, in stories, be Birgitte reborn. It makes sense to give a single name to such an entity.

Yes, it makes a lot of sense to call someone who isn't Birgitte Birgitte.

 

Why? Is there a specific reason you believe this?

Well, another Hawkwing or LTT would have been noticed.

 

Then please explain Birgitte's case.

There's nothing that needs explaining.

 

Any reason other than your dislike for the process?

And how few Heroes there are indicating that a new one being joined is not something that happens with any regualrity, and no reason has yet been given why they should be. Other than that, I can't think of one at present.

 

We know Birgitte's are. Thom mentions it. "For some reason, every story about her mentions the bow and the braid", or something to that effect. He knows she is tied to the Wheel. Though he adds that he might have found some which were about her, which didn't include them.

Did you just shoot your own argument in the foot? Yes, they always reappear, except for those occasions when they don't. And what about the rest of the turnings of the Wheel? Why would she need a bow in the modern world, if the modern world needed a Birgitte? And as blonde hair doesn't appear in some ethnic groups, does that mean there could never be an Asian Birgitte? Or African Birgitte? Is the Wheel racist?

 

Doubtful.

Not in the slightest.

[Sockervadd]

In a supposedly infinite number of ages, one would think that if Mat, Perrin or any other character's soul had been Hero material, they would have been tied to the wheel a long time ago.

[dholm]

I don't agree.

It is still true whether you agree or not.

Things do not become true simply because you believe them to be.

 

Remember that they know about the Heroes of the Horn -- anyone who "fits" Birgitte would, in stories, be Birgitte reborn. It makes sense to give a single name to such an entity.

Yes, it makes a lot of sense to call someone who isn't Birgitte Birgitte.

Except it isn't "someone who isn't Birgitte". It IS Birgitte -- Birgitte reborn.

 

Why? Is there a specific reason you believe this?

Well, another Hawkwing or LTT would have been noticed.

Is there any reason why? Many of Rand's lives we see in the Portal Stones are completely mundane. They wouldn't necessarily be ta'veren.

 

Then please explain Birgitte's case.

There's nothing that needs explaining.

Yes, there is. Why should the souls of Artur Hawkwing and Lews Therin Telamon be any different from the souls of Gaidal Cain and Birgitte? Why are they reborn enough to witness every major event in the past Age, whereas Artur Hawkwing and LTT are only born once each? It's inconsistent. There's more than enough time for them to have lived dozens of lives in-between.

 

Any reason other than your dislike for the process?

And how few Heroes there are indicating that a new one being joined is not something that happens with any regualrity, and no reason has yet been given why they should be. Other than that, I can't think of one at present.

Mat and Perrin aren't ordinary heroes, though. They are, along with Rand, the three most important people alive at the moment. Without both of them, Rand will fail. I would say they fit the criteria if anyone does.

 

I also believe that they could very easily already be Heroes of the Horn.

 

We know Birgitte's are. Thom mentions it. "For some reason, every story about her mentions the bow and the braid", or something to that effect. He knows she is tied to the Wheel. Though he adds that he might have found some which were about her, which didn't include them.

Did you just shoot your own argument in the foot? Yes, they always reappear, except for those occasions when they don't. And what about the rest of the turnings of the Wheel? Why would she need a bow in the modern world, if the modern world needed a Birgitte? And as blonde hair doesn't appear in some ethnic groups, does that mean there could never be an Asian Birgitte? Or African Birgitte? Is the Wheel racist?

I never claimed they had to appear with every incarnation. They appear often enough to be associated with the character, however.

 

Doubtful.

Not in the slightest.

Instead of simply saying you disagree, could you provide a reason? You completely ignored my rationale as to why it is doubtful.

[Thor]

what makes you think humans can tap into power of the wheel?  if they can do that why don't they just use the wheel to seal back the dark one since the do threatens the wheel's existence?

 

your make belief is most pathetic.

 

The "Power" of the Wheel is the One Power. Its has been stated explicitly, that the One Power was used to create the universe and drives the Wheel of Time. I would think humans are mildly capable of tapping into the OP, wouldn't you?

 

And yes, they did use the OP to seal the DO. Have you been reading the books? Or were you being sarcastic? Cos I totally missed it.

 

 

 

the power drives the wheel, it does not say the power is of the wheel.  if the true power is of the dark one, then the one power should be of the creator, not of the wheel.  i believe the wheel can run on either the one power or on true power (as moiraine implied with the wheel capable of being evil)

 

there is no evidence that humans could have tapped into the wheel's power, anywhere in the book.  hence it is illogical that humans could have made the horn or posessed knowledge of how to manipulate heroes tied to ages past to help them.  certainly not the humans in the aol anyways.

 

why would a bunch of people in near perfect utopia suddenly want to tap into powers of past heroes? makes no sense.  it must have been created either far before the aol or sometime during the war against shadow.  and since we don't have any records of it being made during the war (like the choedan kal was recorded), it goes to say that it is far more likely to have been made long ago.

 

which brings me back to my first question, why does a horn always look like a horn, even though it was ages apart?

[Mr Ares]

Except it isn't "someone who isn't Birgitte". It IS Birgitte -- Birgitte reborn.

Except that would not be known to the general public, or even to Birgitte reborn herself. It would be someobne who isn't Birgitte, as far as anyone knows, doing things, and people saying some woman who lived generations ago is responsible.

 

They wouldn't necessarily be ta'veren.

But they would be Heroes. Part of the Pattern's self-correcting mechanism. So how much can you help the Pattern's drift by farming?

 

Why should the souls of Artur Hawkwing and Lews Therin Telamon be any different from the souls of Gaidal Cain and Birgitte?

...Aside from them being different people? They are spun out for a purpose, correct? And while the purpose is the same in all cases, the exact means differ depending on the Hero. So while a Birgitte and Gaidal might be needed every hundred years or so, A Hawkwing might only be needed every few thousand, and a Dragon even less frequently.

 

Mat and Perrin aren't ordinary heroes, though. They are, along with Rand, the three most important people alive at the moment. Without both of them, Rand will fail. I would say they fit the criteria if anyone does.

But there are a lot of people necessary for Rand's victory. Moiraine, Thom, Egwene, Nynaeve, Lan, others. Are they all Heroes, too? All have a part to play, all are essential.

 

there is no evidence that humans could have tapped into the wheel's power, anywhere in the book.  hence it is illogical that humans could have made the horn or posessed knowledge of how to manipulate heroes tied to ages past to help them.

I think WoTmania does a pretty good job of rebutting your arguments, so I will use their page on the Horn. "The creators of the Horn are unknown, but they were mortal, not gods (see Robert Jordan’s Blog Posts Pre Knife of Dreams FAQ) and the horn certainly dates from an earlier Age than the current."

 

which brings me back to my first question, why does a horn always look like a horn, even though it was ages apart?

"The Horn is remarkably plain aside from the inscription, yet it possesses the property of unusual durability: Mat tossed the Horn over a wall, picking it up on the other side noting; "It isn't even scratched" (The Great Hunt, Blademaster)."

[dholm]

Except it isn't "someone who isn't Birgitte". It IS Birgitte -- Birgitte reborn.

Except that would not be known to the general public, or even to Birgitte reborn herself. It would be someobne who isn't Birgitte, as far as anyone knows, doing things, and people saying some woman who lived generations ago is responsible.

People are aware of the Heroes of the Horn -- they know that someone could be Birgitte reborn. When someone crops up who would fit the description of Birgitte as it is known, they would automatically be assumed to be Birgitte reborn. It could happen while that incarnation of Birgitte is alive, but it doesn't have to be. Hindsight is 20/20, after all.

 

They wouldn't necessarily be ta'veren.

But they would be Heroes. Part of the Pattern's self-correcting mechanism. So how much can you help the Pattern's drift by farming?

Who says they have to be essential to the Pattern in every single life?

 

Why should the souls of Artur Hawkwing and Lews Therin Telamon be any different from the souls of Gaidal Cain and Birgitte?

...Aside from them being different people? They are spun out for a purpose, correct? And while the purpose is the same in all cases, the exact means differ depending on the Hero. So while a Birgitte and Gaidal might be needed every hundred years or so, A Hawkwing might only be needed every few thousand, and a Dragon even less frequently.

Not necessarily. They are spun out for a purpose some times. It doesn't automatically follow that every time they are spun out, it is for a purpose.

 

Mat and Perrin aren't ordinary heroes, though. They are, along with Rand, the three most important people alive at the moment. Without both of them, Rand will fail. I would say they fit the criteria if anyone does.

But there are a lot of people necessary for Rand's victory. Moiraine, Thom, Egwene, Nynaeve, Lan, others. Are they all Heroes, too? All have a part to play, all are essential.

I disagree. None of them are truly essential; any parts they play could be fulfilled by different people. Mat and Perrin are, though -- it has been mentioned several times that Rand would lose the Last Battle without them.

[Mr Ares]

Who says they have to be essential to the Pattern in every single life?

Well, it is their raison d'etre.

 

It doesn't automatically follow that every time they are spun out, it is for a purpose.

Considering that Birgitte and Gaidal are always paired when woven out, the one a short while before the other and always meet in life, I'd say it was implied.

 

I disagree. None of them are truly essential

The books disagree with your interpretation. A woman dead and gone, for one, the inclusion of all the above in Min's fireflies Viewing in book 1. No-one is denying Mat and Perrin are essential, but so are others.

 

People are aware of the Heroes of the Horn

How widespread is that knowledge? And surely you'd more likely think someone a Birgitte imitator than Birgitte herself.