Remnant of a remnant

[Matcauthon999]

So yeah this is the Tinkers yeah, or at least thats the assumption i've been working on for generations

[Thorum]

Either those or the Shaido.  Or he Jenn aiel.

 

Guess we'll have to wait two more books to know ;D

[Matcauthon999]

i thought the jenn aiel were the tinkers

[Majsju]

The Jenn Aiel ceased to exist a long time ago.

And the tinkers ceased to be Aiel a long time ago.

[Chel Vanin]

i thought the jenn aiel were the tinkers

 

No, Tinkers are descended from the Aiel who refused to continue serving the AS by safeguarding the hoards of angreal, sa'angreal and ter' angreal. They still follow the way of the leaf but are no longer Aiel (Aiel = dedicated, can't really be called dedicated when they gave up on their task.)

 

Jenn Aiel were the ones who followed the way of the leaf and served the AS til the end, eventually dying out before they could finish Rhuidean.

 

And obviously the Aiel are the ones who abandoned the way of the leaf but decided to protect the Jenn Aiel from those who would do them harm.

 

Not bashing the Tinkers for 'giving up' btw.

[mb]

The remnant of an remnant will be the Aiel that survive the Last Battle.

That group would certainly include Aviendha (because she is yet to bear 4 of Rand's babies and she has not yet gotten pregnant yet).  The rest I imagine would be those who follow the Car'a'carn (Rand).

 

There was a past thread that discussed this.

 

[Luckers]

It is definatly not the Tinkers--the remnant of a remnant will be from 'those that call themselves Aiel'. The Tuatha'an do not.

 

Here are my thoughts on the subject.

 

The Prophecy of Rhuidean

 

Firstly, I think it should be noted that the exact phrase is 'the remnant of a remnant'. Its an important distinction I think, because it changes the subject of the sentence. A remnant of a remnant is sequential, it continues on adding to the description. The remnant of a remnant separates the sentence--by which I mean it makes each remnant refer to a different thing.

 

Which is a fancy way of saying that rather than simply mean that the Aiel are gonna get nearly wiped out--that there will be only a remnant of a remnant left numbers wise, i think the phrase represents a sequence of changes within the Aiel. But that’s all esoteric gibberish.

 

The actual reality of it all is that i think the modern Aiel are already one of the remnants spoken of. Consider that the prophecy was spoken by Aes Sedai living with the Jenn, who remembered the Dai'shain and the First Covenant--still lived it, really. Modern Aiel as they are a remnant of the Dai'shain, and I think that is the first step in the chain--a fact that is added to by the fact that whoever spoke the prophecy actually used the words 'those that call themselves Aiel' indicating quite clearly that from their perspective (of which the Foretelling was spoken) modern Aiel are not actually Aiel. It's the same as the whole 'so-called Aiel' thing.

 

So irrespective of whether or not it refers to deaths and damage i dont think its going to be as severe as the wording 'a remnant of a remnant' suggests (hence my first paragraph).

 

From there though I would say that I actually don't think the prophecy refers to Aiel dying in great numbers at all. Oh, I think that will happen--the Aiel are way to into the whole 'till water is gone, till shade is gone' thing not to be at the head of the fight in Tarmon Gai'don, so they are going to be taking heavy lossed. I just don't think that prophecy refers to them dying Tarmon Gai'don.

 

Consider that the prophecy says 'He will spill the blood of those that call themselves Aiel as if water on sand, and he shall break them as with dried twigs, but the remnant of a remnant will he save, and they shall live.'

 

That indicates to me that what's going on with the remnants results directly from Rand's actions against the Aiel. Specifically, I'm talking about the revelation of the First Covenant and the sin of the Aiel. Thats were the decline of the modern Aiel began, where things began to get nasty.

 

So thats my argument--or more precisely my argument is that the remnant of a remnant refers to a social change, not to great losses. Modern Aiel whose culture stems from the Dai'shain are a remnant, and the Aiel that will exist after Tarmon Gai'don will be much the same--similar to the modern Aiel, born from that culture, but different.

 

And consider how its already begun--the revelation of the Aiel's past and the bleakness, the fact that Aiel are mixing for the first time with the non-Aiel on a social level, the Wise Ones getting over their fear of Aes Sedai and standing up for themselves, the Wise Ones fighting--and consider how it will continue, with the truth of the Aiel known to all Aiel they will have to devise a new method of selecting chiefs, with travelling the Waste cannot remain so hidden away, so the Aiel are going to have to take their place on the world stage. With men able to channel the Wise One organisation will need to expand to include men, or adapt to their presense in some way. The entire gender system will be thrown into chaos.

 

Rand is the beginning of all of it--he stripped away what the Aiel were--or did things that will strip away even more of how they lived. It's why aiel are becoming siswai'aman--because their culture is falling apart.

 

They'll survive, but they'll be different. I do hope they cling to ji'e'toh though.

 

[Gentled Ben]

The remnant of an remnant will be the Aiel that survive the Last Battle.

That group would certainly include Aviendha (because she is yet to bear 4 of Rand's babies and she has not yet gotten pregnant yet).  The rest I imagine would be those who follow the Car'a'carn (Rand).

 

There was a past thread that discussed this.

 

Thanks, mb. 

[WWWwombat]

I have a bad feeling the remnant referred to is the Shaido under Therava :(

[Seaine Sedai]

I have a bad feeling the remnant referred to is the Shaido under Therava :(

 

It's an interesting thought, but I have trouble believing this myself, and here's why:

 

The Foretelling that Aes Sedai gave, that has since become prophecy first mentioned that those who did not go to Rhuidean to lead their people would doom their people...so the potential descendants that would form the septs/clans of the people that turned away from Rhuidean that day died out and only the 12 Clans that we know now remain.  The next part addresses what Rand will do and what it means to the people who follow him.  Since it specifically mentions them then it would stand to logic that THOSE are the ones that will be saved, those that survive after TG that are with him.

It is possible, afterall, that since people believe the world will "break" all over again that the Aiel Waste will suddenly become the Dead Aiel Sea...and be immersed underwater.  There is an entire "ocean" of water under Rhuidean where it gets its water.  While I don't really believe this, I speculate that if that happens...oops there go the Shaido that went with Therava, trying to save the ways they had.

 

With the wording "remnant of a remnant"...I almost get the feeling that we'll start to see the Aiel go BACK to their old ways, in time.  ALL Aiel are aware that at one time they faithfully served Aes Sedai.  It could be the people with the bleakness or those that won't give up being gai'shain after their year and a day are the ones to be saved, because they return to their original faith, after a fashion.  Maybe someone will rediscover the growing songs (we have a music box that contains some songs that Elayne found in the Kin's stash) and the Aiel will rediscover their talent for Tree Singing that worked with the Ogier.

 

It's all speculation.  Too bad the Foretellings are never really clear enough to explain exactly who/what they mean, but we always know that the words themselves are important.

[wavemistresstrammell]

No one laugh at me, but I always though the remnant of a remnant was Aviendha's and Rand's children. We don't know when she'll have them... could before the last book and she might be on of the last Aiel to die. I don't know, just thought I would throw that out there...