Rand al'Sue. (Spoilers from book 3 up to 11)

[Sirayn]

You can't actually prove that a character is a Mary Sue, imo, because Sueness is such a subjective thing. There's a lot of factors involved. The Mary Sue is some, but not necessarily all, of the following:

 

* The author's darling, who is never wrong.

* Beautiful/handsome, sexy, charismatic, widely beloved.

* Successful, famous, powerful, super-skilled.

* Heroic, brave, daring, self-sacrificial.

* Has incredibly powerful intuition which tells him/her exactly what role a character will play in a story, allowing him/her to instantly recognise well-hidden bad guys and/or cranky good guys with secret hearts of gold.

* Awe-inspiringly smart.

* Best of the best at something, even though s/he is staggeringly young and/or inexperienced and/or just wildly unlikely to be so good.

* Tragic pasts of inner pain and woe.

* Beset by haters, who mistreat him/her for no apparent reason to extort reader sympathy. Bonus points if they're jealous of his/her overwhelming awesomeness.

* Astoundingly accomplished, doing things people never thought were possible, revolutionising various fields, etc.

 

Obviously some of these don't apply to Rand. For example, Jordan is pretty good at switching off the authorial oversight and allowing characters to make mistakes in their perception of other characters. And there are plenty of people who dislike Rand. Not all of them are evil, even. But Rand suffers from nearly all of the other problems.

 

Ultimately, it's about how annoying you find him, I guess. I'm moderately irritated by a lot of Rand's Sue-like traits, like learning to be a master swordsman of incredible awesomeness in about a week. Other things about him I like more. There are definitely more annoying Mary Sues around.

 

(The walking definition of a Mary Sue is in the Buffy episode "Superstar".)

[Sirayn]

Wow...

 

Glad I stick to the RP side for the most part, its only luckers and RAW that keep me coming back here...

 

Slightly passive-aggressive. ;)

[TaiDashan]

Truly was not intended as passive aggressive. Just not a subject I find worth posting an argument about... Is he? Isn't he? Who truly cares?

 

If you need me I will be reading about peoples opinions on the Prophesies or particular pieces of WoT lore. Not bashing on RJ's ability to write a solid character.

 

*edit: Rand is a Messiah character for the record...*

[Arath Faringal]

Ahahaha. Out of curiosity I ran Rand through the Original Fiction Mary Sue Litmus Test, and even skipping a bunch of questions because I couldn't remember, he scored an 81. (71 points and above is classed as an Irredeemable Sue.)

 

It's largely a matter of opinion methinks.  I just ran Rand through that test and came up with a 35.

 

It doesn't matter what character you want to examine, you will ALWAYS find something terribly un-original and cliche.  If you take the test wanting the character to look Sue-ish, they will.

[TaiDashan]

*nods*

[Elgee]

2 Asha'man and a Red in one thread ...  ;D

 

Ultimately, it's about how annoying you find him, I guess. I'm moderately irritated by a lot of Rand's Sue-like traits, like learning to be a master swordsman of incredible awesomeness in about a week. Other things about him I like more. There are definitely more annoying Mary Sues around.

 

 

And being able to channel amazing things with no training, manipulating masters at the art of Daes whatever even though he was brought up as a farm boy, Ta'vareness, etc.

 

Though the ultimate Mary Sue has to be Elayne  :P

[Kivam]

Ahahaha. Out of curiosity I ran Rand through the Original Fiction Mary Sue Litmus Test, and even skipping a bunch of questions because I couldn't remember, he scored an 81. (71 points and above is classed as an Irredeemable Sue.) And they don't even have questions like:

 

* "Is the character the Messiah?"

* "Precisely how many women want to marry him?"

* "How many previously forgotten things does he reinvent?"

* "Is he the most powerful (or nearly the most powerful) magic user of all time?"

* "Is he destined to make a heroic self-sacrifice?"

 

Because if they did have those questions, Rand would score even further off the charts. :D

XD

 

Here comes your proof, csarmi. Take the test for Rand, and you'll see I've missed tons more questions.

 

Yeah, he got a 71 from me.  Then again, it doesn't ask questions like:

 

"Has your character ever lost a limb"

[Kivam]

* The author's darling, who is never wrong. No

* Beautiful/handsome, sexy, charismatic, widely beloved. Yes (but not "widely beloved")

* Successful, famous, powerful, super-skilled. Yes

* Heroic, brave, daring, self-sacrificial. Yes (although almost any hero, particularly in fantasy, almost has to fall in here

* Has incredibly powerful intuition which tells him/her exactly what role a character will play in a story, allowing him/her to instantly recognise well-hidden bad guys and/or cranky good guys with secret hearts of gold. No

* Awe-inspiringly smart. No

* Best of the best at something, even though s/he is staggeringly young and/or inexperienced and/or just wildly unlikely to be so good. Yes

* Tragic pasts of inner pain and woe. Not really (yes, he's adopted, mom died in child birth - but it's not really a "tragic past of inner pain and woe" b/c he doesn't particular agonize over it)

* Beset by haters, who mistreat him/her for no apparent reason to extort reader sympathy. Bonus points if they're jealous of his/her overwhelming awesomeness.No

* Astoundingly accomplished, doing things people never thought were possible, revolutionising various fields, etc. Yes

 

Ultimately, it's about how annoying you find him, I guess. I'm moderately irritated by a lot of Rand's Sue-like traits, like learning to be a master swordsman of incredible awesomeness in about a week.

 

That was pretty much the only thing that annoyed me

[Sirayn]

Yeah, he got a 71 from me.  Then again, it doesn't ask questions like:

 

"Has your character ever lost a limb"

 

It does ask whether the character has physical handicaps and if they're significant, iirc.

[Kivam]

Yeah, he got a 71 from me.  Then again, it doesn't ask questions like:

 

"Has your character ever lost a limb"

 

It does ask whether the character has physical handicaps and if they're significant, iirc.

 

Yeah, but up til the end of the last book he hadn't, so I left that alone (I looked at that more along the lines of "was he born with a club foot but destined to become a football player" not "did he suffer some horrific loss)

 

Now go critique my TMS submission, dammit! I want feedback!  Feeeeeeeedbaaaaaack!

[Shard]

How does losing a limb make anyone a Mary-sue?

[Arath Faringal]

Because Luke Skywalker already did it, therefore it is not original. :P

[Sirayn]

I feel for your terrible suffering, Kivam. It's like four whole hours since you posted on the crit circle. ;)

 

How does losing a limb make anyone a Mary-sue?

 

Some of the questions in the Mary Sue test subtract Mary Sue points from the total.

[Shard]

Because Luke Skywalker already did it, therefore it is not original. :P

 

Yes because Star Wars was clearly the FIRST to DO ANYTHING!  ::)

[Kivam]

I feel for your terrible suffering, Kivam. It's like four whole hours since you posted on the crit circle. ;)

 

;D

 

I knew you would understand *sobs tears of gratitude*

[Shard]

Mary-Sue's are supposed to be the epitome of perfection and that's a character like Edward Cullen from Twilight. Rand Al'Thor is hardly perfection.

[CivBrit]

I don't have time right now to read all of the replies to this thread, so I apologise if sonmeone has already raised these points. That said, here's my two cents:

 

Firstly, Rand's three wives situation is not a problem with his character, but with the women's. It's another example of how unrealistic, irrational and ridiculous most of the female characters in tWoT are. Given the way they were raised, it's crazy that Elayne and Min in particular are so accepting of Rand's polygamy (Aviendha's acceptance, being Aiel, I can understand). Not to mention all of the WoT characters seem to fall in love with one another on a whim, at first sight (take Lan and Nynaeve for example).

 

I don't see how it's a problem specifically with Rand's character though. Men and women fall for each other in this series for no good reason all the time - it's not limited to Rand. It's also perfectly plausable that multiple women would fall for a handsome, physically fit and powerful young man, and it's equally plausable that said young man would love to have a blonde, brunette and redhead on his arm. He's making great sacrafices to save the world, so he may as well enjoy himself while he can.

 

Secondly the whole point of Rand/Lews Therin's character is that he's special - a chosen champion of the light who is destined to be the greatest man of his time in each turn of the wheel. If Rand was full of flaws it wouldn't fit the purpose of his character. I don't think Rand's abilities and talents are the result of Robert Jordan's fantasizing but to demonstrate that Rand is special and not just another strong male channeler.

 

Keep in mind also that most of the other women who have come on to Rand have done so to gain power and influence. I'm sure all male leaders in history have had women throw themselves at them for that very reason.

 

I do agree that he is unrealistically virtuous, but this is high fantasy and he is the hero. Claiming that he is sexist because he has a hard time sending women to their death is ridiculous. Most men alive in the real world today (myself included) would act the same way (so I guess we're all sexist, and the point is moot).

[Gentled Ben]

I think if WoT has a Mary Sue, it is Elayne.

[Dunedain Fal]

I got a 124. Go figure.

[TheGreyishGrayONE]

I don't have time right now to read all of the replies to this thread, so I apologise if sonmeone has already raised these points. That said, here's my two cents:

 

Firstly, Rand's three wives situation is not a problem with his character, but with the women's. It's another example of how unrealistic, irrational and ridiculous most of the female characters in tWoT are. Given the way they were raised, it's crazy that Elayne and Min in particular are so accepting of Rand's polygamy (Aviendha's acceptance, being Aiel, I can understand). Not to mention all of the WoT characters seem to fall in love with one another on a whim, at first sight (take Lan and Nynaeve for example).

 

I don't see how it's a problem specifically with Rand's character though. Men and women fall for each other in this series for no good reason all the time - it's not limited to Rand. It's also perfectly plausable that multiple women would fall for a handsome, physically fit and powerful young man, and it's equally plausable that said young man would love to have a blonde, brunette and redhead on his arm. He's making great sacrafices to save the world, so he may as well enjoy himself while he can.

 

Secondly the whole point of Rand/Lews Therin's character is that he's special - a chosen champion of the light who is destined to be the greatest man of his time in each turn of the wheel. If Rand was full of flaws it wouldn't fit the purpose of his character. I don't think Rand's abilities and talents are the result of Robert Jordan's fantasizing but to demonstrate that Rand is special and not just another strong male channeler.

 

Keep in mind also that most of the other women who have come on to Rand have done so to gain power and influence. I'm sure all male leaders in history have had women throw themselves at them for that very reason.

 

I do agree that he is unrealistically virtuous, but this is high fantasy and he is the hero. Claiming that he is sexist because he has a hard time sending women to their death is ridiculous. Most men alive in the real world today (myself included) would act the same way (so I guess we're all sexist, and the point is moot).

 

I agree. Mostly because you basically brought up all the same points I did two pages ago. Glad to see I'm not alone in this.

[anthony draco]

Even Rand's horse can come to us and look down its nose on us despite saying it doesn't care. :o

 

Well, CivBrit, yeah, unrealistically highly virtuous. I might be wrong about sexist, but highly unrealistically virtuous all the same.

[Shard]

Even Rand's horse can come to us and look down its nose on us despite saying it doesn't care. :o

 

Well, CivBrit, yeah, unrealistically highly virtuous. I might be wrong about sexist, but highly unrealistically virtuous all the same.

 

You evidently haven't met a whole lot of people then, I've met those who are more Virtuous then Rand. Hell Galad is more virtous then Rand.

[anthony draco]

I'm not sure about that. RJ doesn't show that much of him to tell anyway. He's rigid as a White though, no doubt.

 

And how is Elayne a Sue? Maybe someone can point that out?

[Elgee]

Elayne is amazingly beautiful, freakishly strong in the OP, heir to the throne (now Queen), breezed through her education faster than lightning, has escaped relatively unscathed from all kinds of dire situations (mostly due to other people), she's dating the Hero, and her hair is ALWAYS pretty  ::)

[Sirayn]

I'm amused by the Galad reference, because Galad is the most incredibly beautiful man in the world ever, the mere sight of whom brings women to their knees (figuratively speaking, you filthy-minded people), an awe-inspiringly brilliant swordsman, and a virtuous, just and noble man.

 

Wow, this is like knocking down skittles. :D