Taim

[Dragonsworn]

I thought I read somewhere that RJ said that Taim is NOT Demandred....or has he said anything about Moridin not being Ishy?

Did RJ say that or not? I can't find the source anymore and it makes something I noticed in KoD interesting and confusing too.

 

Thanks

[Zardi]

About Taimandred: This isn't the original source, but the same information is quoted here. That says the statement by RJ was given at a post-CoT book signing, so maybe that'll help you find the original source. :)

[Guest cwestervelt]

Robert Jordan has confirmed that Moridin is a resurrected Forsaken. Considering which ones were available at the time, that makes Moridin Ishamael.

 

The quotes about Taim and Moridin can both be found in the Tor Question of the Week located at http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

 

Week 3 Question: There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

 

After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one. By the way, what constitutes a suitable body from the Dark One's perspective is not that of the recipient. Certainly Aginor would never have chosen to be reincarnated in his, shall we say, less than imposing body, nor would the womanizing Balthamel have chosen to be reincarnated as a beautiful woman. It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One. But the body has to be basically healthy and sound, and neither too young nor too old. After all, the Dark One wants his servants to be effective, and a body that meets those basic requirements is more desirable than one that doesn't. Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason.

 

There are a few other limits and constraints, but I won't go into them here, since I may want to use them in the books, and I would rather they come as a surprise if I do.

 

Week 4 Question: At recent book signing following the release of Crossroads of Twilight, it was reported that you confirmed that the Forsaken Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, who was introduced to Rand at the beginning of Lord of Chaos. Have you confirmed that Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, leader of the Black Tower?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Yes. Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim. All right, those of who fell over from the shock of a simple, straightforward answer can get up off the floor now. Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you. <Maniacal>

[Guest Majsju]

A more recent quote, from D*Con last year...

 

Emma: Was Taimandred a deliberate ruse to lead your readers astray, or were you surprised (by the all of the theories connecting Taim to Demandred)?

 

Jordan: I was surprised…but I wasn’t going to disabuse you of it for a while, I like to watch you squirm.

 

http://p079.ezboard.com/ftheorylandfrm30.showMessage?topicID=1.topic

[Kadere]

Hey Majsju, you know crazy stuff like this: Where's the quote where RJ said we have yet to meet who Demandred's posing as? Cause it seems people have been saying it so long that it may not be true anymore. So if you happen to know where that quote is, and that he said it during the CoT signing, I'd really like to have a look. Thanks!

[Guest Majsju]

Hey Majsju, you know crazy stuff like this: Where's the quote where RJ said we have yet to meet who Demandred's posing as? Cause it seems people have been saying it so long that it may not be true anymore. So if you happen to know where that quote is, and that he said it during the CoT signing, I'd really like to have a look. Thanks!

 

Bottom of the page.

http://www.darkfriends.net/wheel/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.5_taimandred.html

[Dragonsworn]

So who is Taim?

 

***Possible SPOILER***

 

In KoD, Logain was describing Taim's temper to Rand and said "his eyes were like fire." More than once if I recall. And makes mention, after the Trolloc attack, about Taim having secret weaves. Also, at the end of KoD, Taim says, "like the old saying...let the Lord of Chaos rule."

 

Taim must be Forsken but if he's Ishy..who's Moridin? And if not Ish, who? I thought they were all accounted for.

 

My books are packed away...who was at Shaol Ghul at the beginning of LoC?

[Guest cwestervelt]

It isn't impossible for a 3rd Ager to know the phrase "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" and not be associated with the Forsaken. The Third Age has a "Feast of Fools" for which the name varies on a regional basis. During that festival, the most foolish person in the village is appointed as the ruler for the duration, and that persons word is law. In title of that person varies, but in some areas he is known as "The Lord of Chaos."

 

Oh the irony. So many people are just convinced that Taim is as Black as he can be. Aided no doubt by the fact that Logain openly calls him a Darkfriend when talking to Rand. If there is a "Lord of Chaos" ruling in the Black Tower, it is Taim, the biggest fool in Randland.

[Luckers]

Taim is a third age man--he doesn't match any of the Forsaken other the Demandred, which we know he aint. Moreover Osen'gar was placed in the Black Tower... why have two Forsaken in the one place.

 

My suspicion is that he was recruited by Ishy up to 20 years ago, when he first realised TG would be coming soon, and trained, then sent out to start training men for the shadow in much the same way as must have been done during the Trolloc Wars. Recently, due to the extent of his efforts for the Shadow, and maybe because Shadar Haren wants agents under his exclusive control, and not Moridins, he was raised to the level of Chosen.

[Red States Rule!]

Taim being Demandred has taken hold.

 

Kind of like it was his birthday present, yes?

[Luckers]

I dont understand what you said man.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Luckers,

 

Unfortunately, we don't have anything that tells us how old Taim is. RJ has been reported as saying that a man doesn't start to slow until he is at least 25 and usually closer to 30 years of age. When Rand meets him, Taim looks about 35, so theoretically, he could have been slowing for whatever time would equate to about 5 years of apparent aging. Based on RJ's later comments that isn't very likely because Taim no longer looks that old having recovered from the hard usage he was put to. If he no longer even looks 35, you need to really start cutting away at his age. He doesn't have to be much older than he actually looks. That doesn't speak well for the possibility of him having channeled for 20+ years. Ishamael would have needed to recruit him before he ever even manifested the spark.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=150

For Linda Sedai, Rand misjudges Taim's age because when they meet, you might say Taim has been rode hard and put away wet. He has just finished a long and difficult flight to reach Caemlyn, the one place where he might find refuge instead of being hunted -- along with other reasons -- and that has a wearing effect on anyone. Now that he has recovered, he doesn't look so old.

[Luckers]

Yes, he would have. The late slowing works just as well with my theory as anything else. Ishy found taim young... maybe 20. A young darkfriend maybe just begining to assert the ability... then again maybe Ishy has been testing darkfriends for twenty years. In either case i see no problem.

[bratr]

Idea yay

 

Isn't i possible that Mazim Taim is being used by a forsaken/DO

 

I mean he wasn't THAT crazy at first.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Bratr:

 

My personal standpoint is that Taim is not a Darkfriend and he is not a knowing accomplice of the Dark. Because of his arrogance and personal pride/ambition, he is easily manipulated by those around him. Dashiva (Osan'gar or Aran'gar, I can never remember which he was and don't want to look it up) was around him sufficiently long to realize that fact.

[bratr]

thats what I tried to say in my post lol

[Jorik Alarin]

O.K. lets just assume that Taim "isn't" a forsaken. Explain why rands reaction to him the first time they meet and every subsequent meeting is one of instant hatred and almost loss of self control. I thought at first it was just LTT raging on in his hatred of male channelers, but there is a specific reaction to Taim, and a similar one to Dashiva when he was around, but his reaction was not so strong when confronted with Narishma or other Ash'aman. ( and when LTT says destroy them all, is he refering to the male channelers, or the forsaken, but then again he doesnt seem to rage like that when confronted by female forsaken) I would say its because Rand can "sense" minions of the shadow much like Moiraine, but then it would raise questions about his encounter with Moridin in Shadar Logoth. The fact is in this series there are no, and i do mean no absolutes.....no way for a person following logical steps to reach any conclusions...because thats the way RJ wants it. A dark friend doesnt have to stay a dark friend (Lord Ingtar) and people acting on the best information they have could end up feeding thousands to the shadow (the borderlanders trying to find the dragon reborn, but leaving the border minimally defended.) which is part of what makes this saga so fascinating, and frustrating. I think that if real world people were half....no a quarter as unpredictable as one of RJ's characters we would all be in asylums. :lol:

[Luckers]

We actually have no indication that Moiraine CAN sense minions of the Shadow. She said she could, IF IT WERE BAD ENOUGH, but even then, Aes Sedai say loads of things, and if they can't sense the likes of Alviarin i doubt they could sense the likes of Taim.

 

LTT's reactions isn't particularily indicative of anything, i dont think. Nevertheless i still think he is a darkfriend.

[Dionysus]

Well, Moiraine told Rand to be wary of Alviarin in the letter, so maybe she did sense something was up...

 

A little thought I just had...

 

Taim is not Demandred.

Taim is not Ishamael.

 

Taim is........Be'lal

 

"Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small."

 

Maybe the amount of Balefire used by Moiraine was very small, since shes not super powerful. Its probably easily refuted with some RJ quotes though.

[Luckers]

Moiraine told Rand to be as wary of Verin as he was of Alviarin refering to Rand's existing wariness that derived from Alviarin's letter. There was no implication in anything she said of Alviarin that indicated a specific wariness Moiraine herself felt of the woman. Moreover if it were as easy as that every Black Sister would have been caught ages ago.

 

As for Taim being Be'lal... Come on. Be'lal was hit by balefire, and even a miniscule amount would destroy him beyond the reach of the Dark One. More specifically though, Taim was active and well known before Be'lal died, as well as during the time it would have taken for him to be reborn.

[Dionysus]

and the Black Ajah killed him and the Dark One put Be'lal into his body, we dont know exactly how long it takes for any of these things.

 

I know its a loony theory, I just got it down in the forum so if it is actually right I have uber bragging rights :)

 

Taim is with Moridin imo. Perhaps a little sideshow with Demi.

[Terron Merdoneth]

Hey,

 

Is it possible that either Moridin or Sammael is simply posing as Taim? Personally, I think it's Sammael. In KoD, Moridin states "it appears that Sammael has resurfaced". Also, almost immediately afterwards, we read that someone has been manouvering large numbers of trollocs and Myrddraal through the Ways. Taim has often displayed contempt for Rand, and besides, Sammael has previously made it plain that he intends to kill Rand. I reckon that when Sammael got eaten by Mashadar, his link with the Dark One sent him mad. He could never accept that Rand was the Dragon Reborn, which matches perfectly with Taim trying to lead the black tower and recruiting Asha'man. In PoD, Rand considers that Sammael sowed Shaido to sprout wherever he stepped.

 

All up, it looks like Sammael isn't dead yet, and it's possible he's posing as Taim.

[Cybertrolloc]

Sammael was very busy at the time Taim was onscreen (around the time of Dumai's Wells, maybe others), and died due to balefire effects that were stronger than those of Belal. Sammael is gone.

 

As for Taim being Be'lal... Come on. Be'lal was hit by balefire' date=' and even a miniscule amount would destroy him beyond the reach of the Dark One. More specifically though, Taim was active and well known before Be'lal died, as well as during the time it would have taken for him to be reborn.[/quote']Agree on the 2 Forsaken in one place part, but Dem and Osangar both had the job of keeping a careful eye on Rand as of the Winter's Heart Forsaken Tea Party.

 

Things Taim and Belal would have in common:

- Knowledge and strength in OP

- Unconventional military knowledge (in how Taim set up the Black Tower and training)

- Wanting to be a visible high roller

- Use the same sigil (fist holding lightning bolts--so did Sammael though), but Taim's palace is decorated in Moridin's colors

- Similar attitude: disdain for Rand

- Taim's verbal slips

Also Moiraine thinks she can only take a few seconds off a thread with balefire, and maybe something along the lines that few Aes Sedai were strong enough to make the weave work...sounds like it might fit in with Jordan's caveat.

 

Things that don't match between:

- Taim's emotional instability, that says more 13 + 13 or Moridin to me. Belal was a pretty cool customer for the milliseconds he was onscreen.

- Timeline doesn't seem to work well, he died a year after Bath and Aginor, why not raise Ishy first?

 

We know very little and nothing telling about Taim prior to showing up in the Caemlyn palace a month after Rhavin died. He was taken after tGH's visions in the sky, then freed later when he drops off the map, Bashere is following rumors that the Shadow is hopefully capable of generating.

 

I'm not for Belal (let him be the Darth Maul of the series), but the case against isn't too strong. Moridin would be similarly annoying too...the case against him is stronger. Sammael, no way, unless there's some clone weave we didn't know about :x

 

No time to get into the life and times of Mazrim Taim now, sorry ;) Suffice to say either willing or unwilling darkfriend.

[Guest Majsju]

You might want to think about timing there. Taim appeared long before Sammael died, and I think most people in the Black Tower would notice if Taim all of a sudden came waltzing in with a completely new personality.

[Vo0]

Could Taim be Sammael ? In KoD when the Forsaken meet Moridin announces that Sammael must still be alive so could taim be him? I know it's far-fetched and all but you never know..