question about the cleansing?

[kachaa]

the section in winter's heart where graendal (i believe) says if saidin is cleansed will the dark one trust you all then [male channelers], paraphrasing.  If saidin was cleansed then the male forsaken would not need the dark one's bond to protect them from the taint.  but saidar was never tainted and the dark one was never more mistrustful of women who could channel?  do men present some special threat to the dark one?  why were women never distrusted despite the fact that they had not need of the dark one's protection to avoid going crazy.

[42Bonzo88]

    Excellent question!! And by the way, Welcome. I'm not really sure, but it could just be that Lews Therin and his Companions were all men. It sounds like a petty reason, but if you think about it, the Dark One is being trapped by the sealing bore and senses only Saidin, so he strikes out at what he senses.

 

    Any other ideas?

[water_seeker]

Remember that there were years of fighting before the DO's prison was sealed, and in that sealing the taint on saidin.  During those years none of the men had need of special protection from using the source.

 

I see two possibilities:

 

1)  Other than Ishamael, the men were the ones with the flaky reasons for joining the shadow.  The women OTOH, all had pretty good reasons.  It could be as simple as the DO not trusting their motives. Or,

 

2)  Whoever said that was trying to scare the men (or at the very least get inside their heads).

[kachaa]

i think these are good points but you have to remember that in that same conversation demandred frowns internally and sort of thinks, i wish this had never occured to them yet.  I.e.  demandred at least seems to think it makes sense that the dark one trusts the men less than the women.  and demandred doesn't seem weak enough to just get scared by some trick of graendal's.

[42Bonzo88]

    Another point and if I'm wrong please correct me, but it seems that the men might be stronger than women where it comes to Saidin. Now, before I get shot for stating that:

 

1. Crossroads of Twilight. Cadsuane is listening to Merise talking about Jahar. He's an Ashaman and Merise makes the comment that he's getting stronger and Cadsuane wonders about what will happen with the bonding of Ashaman if/when the Ashaman get stronger than the Aes Sedai.

 

2. Can't remember his name off hand but the Ashaman who learned the 'New' healing that did even better than Nynaeve's.

 

      Of course, there are the five elements where most men are better at some and the women more better at others, so it kind of evens out in specifics but maybe generally speaking, the men are stronger.

[Kaznen]

Women are stronger in Air and Water and men are stronger in Earth and Fire.  I think when the AM figure out how to make Heartstone more AM will be able to do it then AS.

 

And RJ said that the reason Aginor was hot to get the Eye of the World, and any of the male forsaken were, was so they would have a source of Saidin the DO couldn't "track."  Because of his protection from the taint for the males he is able to know when, where, and what they spin.

 

The males all wanted to do stuff without the DO knowing.

[Sylvia]

Okay, my opinion is that with saidin being clean, the male forsaken could jump ship, and go over to the light. They don't need his protection anymore, so why bother fighting a losing battle? He won't trust them as far as he can throw them (which may not be the right saying, seeing as he is the DO...But you get it)

[Dunedain Fal]

I am somewhat still confused to how exactly Rand cleansed the Saidin.

[ROB_88]

the thing i don't get is that to me that suggeste that there is a limit to the amount of Taint and in conjunction the Power in the world.

if not there would just be more taint coming all the time and he would never finish

[luftstark]

I think the power is an endless source ... but the taint is just a thin cape on the surface.

It's like havin' an endless cup of water. It has infinity water, but a limited surface. If one would pour oil on the surface, you could cover it with a limited amout of oil, but the amount of water would still me endless.

 

It's a poor metaphore (sp). But it is mathematic (sp again) provable that an object with infinite volume can have a finite surface. ^^

 

Hope you understood what i meant!

[Kaznen]

RJ said the OP isn't infinite, it, like all energy, recycles back to its source.  That would mean the taint also recycles.  Rand filtered Saidin through SL to clean off teh taint.

[luftstark]

But it is mathematic (sp again) provable that an object with infinite volume can have a finite surface.

 

No it isn't, at least not in any tangible application.  If something has a surface, by definition, it is not really infinite, since a surface is the place where it ends and something else begins.

 

I apologize. I was wrong.. i was thinking about another math paradox, the one that creates and infinite area, that if made into a 3d solid, has an finit volume. It's the contrary.

 

So sorry.. i was wrong.

 

----

The One Power cannot be infinite, or the Source couldn't have been cleansed, because the taint would have had to be infinite too.

 

Well.. since it was said that RJ stated that the OP is not infinite, there is no point arguing it ^^

 

But i have to disagree on one aspect.

 

One can imagine that the source would be an, let's say, endless sphere. This sphere has infinite volume, therefore it has infinite area to cover that volume. Therefore in order to taint it, it would require an infinite amount of taint.

 

But, what if this sphere, or whatever form you wish, would not be accessible on all of it's extension, but by just one breach on it's "shell". Then it could be that by tainting the surface of that breach you could taint every access to the source without havin' an infinite taint.

 

Anyway.. it's just crazy talk, coz the source is finite. ^^

 

But since the universe is not infinite, nothing within it can be infinite either.  So, the Power is not infinite.

 

Are you really implying that you know the nature of the universe? I can't say if it's finite or infinite, in RJ worlds or in our own. So your afirmation canot be proved. Therefore you canot make assumptions based on that premise.

[Osan`gar]

     Excellent question!! And by the way, Welcome. I'm not really sure, but it could just be that Lews Therin and his Companions were all men. It sounds like a petty reason, but if you think about it, the Dark One is being trapped by the sealing bore and senses only Saidin, so he strikes out at what he senses.

 

     Any other ideas?

 

the reason the Graendal said that the DO would no longer trust the men once the source was clean is due to internal politics. all female forsaken chose to be with the DO of their own free will. the men however were forced to the dark because of the protection from madness that the DO offers. so it therefor follows that the men are trusted less because their enlistment was not viewed entirely as being voluntary. if they were freed from the taint could they then be trusted ???

[Osan`gar]

The One Power cannot be infinite, or the Source couldn't have been cleansed, because the taint would have had to be infinite too.

 

But it is mathematic (sp again) provable that an object with infinite volume can have a finite surface.

 

No it isn't, at least not in any tangible application.  If something has a surface, by definition, it is not really infinite, since a surface is the place where it ends and something else begins.

 

But since the universe is not infinite, nothing within it can be infinite either.  So, the Power is not infinite.

 

 

 

 

it doesnt really matter if the source is infinite or not. the taint does not have to be infinte. it could be a filter located at the point where the power is drawn... kind of like pond scum. all the water doesnt have to be dirty but you will get the dirt anytime you draw on the water... beacusse you can only draw from the top down. and the top is where the taint is!!!

[Kivam]

 

the reason the Graendal said that the DO would no longer trust the men once the source was clean is due to internal politics. all female forsaken chose to be with the DO of their own free will. the men however were forced to the dark because of the protection from madness that the DO offers. so it therefor follows that the men are trusted less because their enlistment was not viewed entirely as being voluntary. if they were freed from the taint could they then be trusted ???

 

Except:

 

1) the taint came as a result of the DO's counterstrike upon the sealing of the Bore; and

 

2) All the male forsaken were caught in the bore when it was sealed, and therefore (even ignoring the rest of the evidence in the series) must have gone over to the DO before the taint existed; ergo

 

3) The bolded part is false

[Kivam]

For Osan'gar

 

it could be a filter located at the point where the power is drawn... kind of like pond scum. all the water doesnt have to be dirty but you will get the dirt anytime you draw on the water. and the top is where the taint is!!!

 

Anything with a "top" or a "surface" cannot be infinite, because the "top" or "surface" is the point where it ENDS.

 

And yet it could nevertheless have infinite volume if you imagine it extending infinitely down from that point, despite the fact that the infinity of its volume would not cover the entirety of the space involved, and therefore would not, theoretically, be actually "infinite". 

 

RAW - what is the volume of a solid with a base of 4 inches by 4 inches and a height of infinity?  The volume is 16 inches (Base) x infinity (height), and since anything times infinity is infinity, the volume of the solid is infinite, even if there is an area (anything outside the 4x4 base) that is not within the solid (meaning that while the volume of the solid is infinite, the solid itself is not)

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

Which is why I was careful to include the words "practical" and "tangible".

 

I understand that theoretical geometric constructions exist which extend infinitely in only one or two or three directions.  But that stuff doesn't exist in reality.

 

And, neither does Saidin.  So, arguing about whether it is finite or infinite and whether something like the taint which might coexist with it would be finite or infinite based on real world examples is pretty pointless, doncha think?

[luftstark]

Are you really implying that you know the nature of the universe?  I can't say if it's finite or infinite, in RJ worlds or in our own.

 

The universe of the Wheel?  Yes.

 

The universe of the Wheel cannot be spatially infinite, because there are things (like the Creator and the Dark One) outside of it.  Anything tangibly infinite has no "outside".

 

BWB, page 14(HC)

"The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator" [and the DO]

 

BWB, page 16(HC)

[DO] "was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation"

 

So, he was imprisioned outside the pattern and the creator "lives" there too.

 

But nothing said that the universe is the pattern... the pattern is not infinite, but it could be a part of the universe, while the Creator, the DO's Prison, and that place where Mogdhien was after the Mind Trap (can't recall the name) was another part of that universe.

 

If the universe is finite, then it's not a UNI-verse, and ONE-verse of a MULTI-verse ... and it's not the case, since all the worlds are inside the pattern, which is inside the UNI-verse itself.

[Kivam]

And yet it could nevertheless have infinite volume if you imagine it extending infinitely down from that point, despite the fact that the infinity of its volume would not cover the entirety of the space involved, and therefore would not, theoretically, be actually "infinite".

 

Which is why I was careful to include the words "practical" and "tangible".

 

I understand that theoretical geometric constructions exist which extend infinitely in only one or two or three directions.  But that stuff doesn't exist in reality.

 

Unlike Saidin, of course :P  ;D