LTT has no friends...

[TheGreyishGrayONE]

Just a little something I've been thinking about lately...It seems as though Lews Therin was the reason some of the 13 known Chosen turned to the Shadow. I mean I can believe one or two weak minded people would go over to the Shadow like Be'lal did because he was jealous. But it's difficult to believe that of all the powerful Aes Sedai of the time the Light gets one of the supposed 2 most powerful men of all time, and the Shadow gets the other, as well as the most powerful female Aes Sedai in history. And these powerful people specifically went over because of Lews Therin. Be'lal was envious of Lews Therin so went to the dark, Demandred couldn't quite live up to LTT and wanted Ilyena so he turned to the Shadow, Sammael was Lews Therin's rival but couldn't quite beat him, so he went to the Shadow, Rahvin always wanted the most power and went over to the Shadow because he couldn't top LTT either. Then there's Lanfear, she wanted LTT and when he rejected her, she went over to the shadow. So it seems to me that up until LTT resealed the Bore the Light would have been significantly better off without LTT. Sure he was one of two most powerful male Channelers, but the shadow without those five Chosen wouldn't have been near so overwhelming. Then there's also the possibility that more of the Chosen turned because of LTT, as well as some of the Dreadlords. The odds are totally for it. If what happened then were to happen now in Randland we would expect to see either Egwene, Nynaeve, Aviendha, Moraine, or any other of the most powerful and successful Aes Sedai to go over to the Shadow, but that doesn't seem to be the case. And it doesn't seem likely Mat or Perrin are converting any time soon either. So was it just an anomaly because of LTT's ego or something we should expect to see in the up coming book?

Thanks for bearing with me.

[water_seeker]

Actually, I don't think any of the female forsaken went to the shadow because of LTT (possible exception is Moggy).  Lanfear just desires power...the DO offers more power and she takes it.  Remember, she says with the Choedan Kal that she and Rand could challenge the DO or the Creator.  The other women each have their own "vices" that pushed them to the shadow.

 

Graendal (according to a Sammael POV) has a desire for power.  In a way she is similar to Lanfear in her desire for power, but unlike Lanfear who wants to attain the highest power, Graendal wants to pull down any power greater than her own.

 

Mesanna went to the shadow when her application for a reseach position was denied (glad she's not looking for a job in todays economy o.O).

 

Moggy's reason to turn to the shadow is unknown (as far as I know) but it seems since she had specific plots aimed at LTT and she investigates the "male a'dam" that she has something against the man.

 

Semirhage was caught torturing patients even before going to the shadow.  When faced with punishment she fled and joined the shadow.

 

Ishy sees the DO as the only way to break the cyclical nature of the wheel (that's the short version).

 

Asmodean just wanted all of eternity to write and play his music (yeah yeah, I know he did bad stuff, but music was his passion).

 

Aginor and Balthamel's reasons are stated expressly, but considering Aginor's unatural creations and Balthamel's overall character make me think they went over for "socially unnaceptable practices."

 

Rahvin's decision to join the shadow is unclear (at least, I've seen nothing in my research to say one way or the other), it may be due to LTT or it may not.

 

That leaves Be'lal, Sammael, and Demandred who did all turn to the shadow because of their envy for LTT (a Sammael POV states that he abandonded a "losing cause").

 

So with Moggy as a possibility and the last 3 men I mentioned there were only 4 people who went to the shadow due to their feelings toward LTT (I suppose Rahvin could make 5, but in the same light, Sammael's POV states that his reason for switching was because the Light was losing... so 3-5 out of 13).

[Kaznen]

Be'lal went over for about the same reasons as Sammy.  They didn't think LTT was that great of a general and they could do a better job but before the war I think those three were friends.

 

Demandred, however, would have been the greastest AS in his time if LTT hadn't been born.  He was like Doctor Doom to LTT's Reed Richards, he said he was better then LTT but deep down he knew LTT was the better AS, scienctist, leader, author, and public servant.  He just couldn't admit it.

 

So after he got pass over as Commander in Chief of the Light's army, by LTT, he switched to prove to the world he was the better man.

[hapazard]

It's important the separate the apparent or given cause of an action from the real underlying reason. Most of the forsaken would probably have turned against the light for one reason or another regardless of the influence of one person. They all seem to be deeply screwed up people and what they do they do for reasons quite unfathomable for a normal person, I'd say. The reason they use to justify their actions is something else entirely.

 

Compare with the situation in Europe during the early 20th century, the continent was ripe for war and any small spark could have set of the fire. That the shots of Sarajevo came to be the casus belli was pure chance.

 

[albino_dog]

Demandred, however, would have been the greastest AS in his time if LTT hadn't been born.  He was like Doctor Doom to LTT's Reed Richards, he said he was better then LTT but deep down he knew LTT was the better AS, scienctist, leader, author, and public servant.  He just couldn't admit it.

 

Yeah about that.. I'm pretty sure Ishamael is/was stronger than Demandred in One Power. I believe it was said somewhere that he equaled LTT. It was said, however, that Demandred was the next man on the list in everything after LTT. Don't know why that is since Ishamael was stronger than Demandred in the One Power(given that he was [almost]equal to LTT). Ishamael was also a well known and highly rated philosopher/theologist. And Ishamael got a third name for his accomplishments and if memory serves, Demandred did not. So yeah, I really don't see him as the eternal second, he was worth less than Ishamael aswell.

 

Best thing is, he went over to the shadow for being number two to LTT only to be second to Ishamael. Ha.

[Mr Ares]

And Ishamael got a third name for his accomplishments and if memory serves, Demandred did not.

Memory doesn't serve. Demandred's name was Barid Bel Medar.

[Kaznen]

All the male forsaken, except Bathamal, had third names as AS.

[TheGreyishGrayONE]

I just think its wrong of us to assume LTT was such a good guy and was in no way responsible for his "friends" going over to the shadow. Just because someone is against the Shadow doesn't mean they are totally perfect. I think its naive to think people are either going to turn against the light or stay for it naturally, and that the people around them had nothing to do with it. Like with Aginor for example, had he not been banned from experimenting with his creations, the Shadow wouldn't have Trollocs or really and type of fighting force. Had LTT just told him to create an army in secret or something rather than tell him he couldn't do what he wanted the Shadow would be done. As far as Lanfear, I just imagine that had LTT married her, she would have stayed with the Light because he was the most powerful and all. I could be wrong, just what I think.

[Builder]

I can sometimes see some connections between Spider-Man and WoT. Aginor was some crazy scientist, which Spider-Man had to kill (or LTT really).

[mb]

The Light would have been better off without Lews Therin?  That seems doubtful.  I take it was Lews Therin's idea to seal the Bore.  And without that event, the War of the Shadow would have lasted longer; and more people would have died.

 

Without Lews Therin, the Forsaken might have still gone over to the Dark side for some reason or other.

 

[Kaznen]

I think most of the Forsaken are cliched villains in literature.

 

You've got the Mad Scientist.

You've got the rock star who sold his soul to the devil.

You've got the sadistic torturer.

You have the jilted lover.

A reeducation director.

An insane sportsman(hunter).

Sexual predator.

The hero's "dark mirror"

The hero's chief rival

Cowardly henchman (woman in this case)

A psychopath

A James Bond villian

A expert Brainwasher.

 

I'll leave you to figure out how is what.  ;)

[Kaznen]

You think of Graendal as a psychopath?

No, I didn't list them in any order.  But she isn't the psychopath.

[mb]

You've got the Mad Scientist.

Aginor

 

You've got the rock star who sold his soul to the devil.

Asmodean

 

You've got the sadistic torturer.

Semirhage

 

You have the jilted lover.

Lanfear

 

A reeducation director.

Mesaana

 

An insane sportsman(hunter).

Sammael

 

Sexual predator.

Balthamel

 

The hero's "dark mirror"

Demandred?

 

The hero's chief rival

Rahvin?

 

Cowardly henchman (woman in this case)

Moghedien

 

A psychopath

Ishamael

 

A James Bond villian

Belal?

 

A expert Brainwasher.

Graendal

 

[Shard]

Who was Moghiedan a cowardly henchman for? From what I can tell she was a stock broker (or some sort of financial person) who decided to go Dark for more power. Where was she a cowardly henchman?

 

Demandred was LTT's rival.

 

Grendeal doesn't brain wash she labotamizes.

[Kaznen]

You've got the rock star who sold his soul to the devil.   Asmodean, although a rock star he was not.

Remember that the BWB was written from the perspective of a third age scholar.  And in a world where the only string instruments around that is strummed is the harp how else would they explain a guitar?

 

Sexual predator.  Balthamel

Here I was think Rhavin.  He uses complusion on hot women so he could tap that.

 

Cowardly henchman (woman in this case)   Has to be Mogehdien, although she is only the Dark One's henchman like the rest before getting mindtrapped ...

She never had a leadership position and would never strike when her target had any possibility of putting up any kind of fight.  And because she always had to be ordered to do something I called her henchman. 

 

The pyschopath I named Bathamal.  From Aran'gar's POV in KoD we saw he never had a inner sense of right and wrong.  He saw what he wanted he took it any way necessary and didn't care for the consiquences.  Plus his mask in tEotW makes me think of the Joker.

[Mr Ares]

Like with Aginor for example, had he not been banned from experimenting with his creations, the Shadow wouldn't have Trollocs or really and type of fighting force. Had LTT just told him to create an army in secret or something rather than tell him he couldn't do what he wanted the Shadow would be done.

No, they should not have made use of his services. They should have denied his skills to the enemy, though.

 

Cowardly henchman (woman in this case) Has to be Mogehdien, although she is only the Dark One's henchman like the rest before getting mindtrapped ...

She never had a leadership position and would never strike when her target had any possibility of putting up any kind of fight. And because she always had to be ordered to do something I called her henchman.

No-one is disputing the coward part, but she was a spymastermistress during the War. She's really no more of a henchman than any of the others, at least prior to the mindtrap. I got the full list, but I only had Balthamel as the psychopath because I had everyone else.