Those tied to the Horn of Valere and those reincarnated/reborn

[zanotam]

I noticed that one of the key problems with the Horn of Valere is that those who are tied to the Wheel yet currently alive will not be summoned. Okay, I know that's one of those "Well, duh!" things, but it seems like it could be very important. See, we know at the very least that Rand and Ishmael are tied to the wheel, but based on something one of the heroes said, the heroes do not always fight on the same side, they fight against each other, with, and many times they aren't even alive at the same time. If someone is bound to the wheel however, they are very difficult to kill, maybe not even Balefire could remove them permanently (no clue on that, just a guess). This would seem to mean however that if any of the Forsaken are bound, they are basically stuck, as unless they can somehow escape, they will always be reincarnated by the DO as long as the bore isn't sealed. That basically calls off any speculation on which of them, if any, are bound to the wheel (Moghedian seems likely, she is the spider, and there are a few tales I remember in the story that remind me of tales in the real world that involve spiders) except for Ishmael who seems a certainty. This brings us to other people, ones who are bound to the wheel and others who at least COULD be. That also brings up another thing, certain people are bound together by certain events, we know this from Birgitte and Gaidel Cain. The forsaken mess this up again though as if any of them are bound, we'll never know since they can't have been reincarnated in the current age which means any older myths will be presumably useless.

 

Anyways, do you guys have any idea on who might actually be a reincarnated hero. Elayne seems likely, a reincarnation of Illyenna (sp?), because of similar places (Dragon's Wife), similar names, and of course, similar appearances. Mat seems a possibility, but it almost seems to me based on the few scraps I remember that Mat has some of the characteristics of the Dragon, or at least his luck. The memories are of course a possibility as well, he could very well be those people, or at least some of them. Those are the only ones I can think of right now, but I'm sure there are at least a few more.

[zanotam]

Actually, wasn't it specifically mentioned that certain characteristics are tied to the incarnations? Gaidel Cain is always super ugly, Birgitee is always (or rather was) younger than Gaidel, and the Dragon presumably can always channel. I'm actually a little vague on the differences between being reincarnated and bound to the wheel, but I think the Ilyena/Elayne thing has been mentioned enough times and is blatantly obvious anyways. What is the difference between being bound to the wheel and reincarnated? We know people can be bound to the wheel if they're really awesome and from what Birgitte says it sounds like it might be possible to become unbound. Moghedian at least recognized Birgitte which seems to emply that there is something that sets people who are bound to the wheel apart from regular people. The fact that the people who do become bound come back over and over obviously means that it's especially hard to become bound, since the type of people who would do things to get bound would seem the most likely to do the sort of things that bind you to the wheel. Also, I was under the impression that the only people the Horn of Valere heroes actually talked to was Rand, Mat, Perrin, and a Shienarian (I think) and everyone else just saw them. Oh, and of course, based on what Artur Hawkwing said, the heroes can fight for the shadow or the light, since Rand and Hawkwing have been on opposite sides before.

[Achoo]

Balefire doesn't remove anyone permanently.  It kills them a little farther back in time, but they are still just regular dead.

 

I repeat, balefire does not destroy souls or anything like that.  I just kills the person earlier in time.

 

Balefire does not make its victim just ordinarily dead. If Rahvin were regular dead, the Dark One would have been able to ressurect him. We know that balefire does someting funky to a person soul or thread or something of them.

 

Hawkwing was king of throwing Hurin a bone when he made his comment at Falme.  It can happen, but appears to be exceedingly rare.  We only know of 14 specifically, and there are less than 100 total.

 

I don't feel that Hawkings is the type to throw bones. Hurin could become bound to the Wheel.

 

If, as Hawkings says, it is possible to join the Heroes, then it must also be possible to be kicked out of the Hero club. After infinite Turnings of the Wheel, there would be infinite Heroes if it were impossible to be rid of them. Alternatively, the Wheel sticks Heroes back into their old roles when it needs them, so that it is difficult to to become a new Hero.

 

 

[Eleint]

Balefire does not make its victim just ordinarily dead. If Rahvin were regular dead, the Dark One would have been able to ressurect him. We know that balefire does someting funky to a person soul or thread or something of them.

 

As RAW said: Balefire does nothing to the soul.  Jordan has said this straight out.  All it does is kill you before the point where it hits you.  As the Dark One is bound by time (his own words in Lord of Chaos), he cannot resurrect someone who is killed by Balefire.  Actually, Jordan leaves this open a bit as he basically says that it's remotely possible if the Dark One were just sitting there waiting for the soul to appear, but it's not likely.

 

But yeah.  He outright said balefire does nothing to the soul, at all.

[zanotam]

That makes it sound so simple. The trick is of course that a large amount of powerful balefire may only be "killing them in the past", but even the DO's forces know the danger of doing that.

[Achoo]

-RAW-

 

People like to talk about infinite turnings ... I've done it a time or two ... but there is never any real indication that the Wheel is designed to continue infinitely ... and there are real problems to be addressed if it does.

 

Does anyone have a quote from RJ about truly infinite turnings?

 

-Wheel of Time books 1 to 11-

 

There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel

 

If there are no beginnings, the Wheel has been turning forever. If there are no endings, the Wheel will turn forever. That's why there must be infinite turnings past and infinite turnings to come.

 

 

[mb]

This page also speculates about Elayne being Ilyena reborn:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyena

 

About those bound to the Wheel, Birgitte & Rand are the only characters we have seen (that live in Randland); Gaidal Cain is the only other soul that we know has been spun out.

 

About Min's viewing, a number of the events will have to be in this life because this would be the only time Birgitte would be simultaneously older & younger.

 

[thatsnotgood]

I'm really surprised you didn't bring up Olver as Gaidal Cain. I think Jordan kind of goes crazy mentioning how ugly Olver is, and Cain is supposed to be ugly.  And Olver is going  to be taught a lot of weaponry, tactics among other things.  And we know that Cain is running around in the world of the flesh at the moment.

[mb]

I'm really surprised you didn't bring up Olver as Gaidal Cain. I think Jordan kind of goes crazy mentioning how ugly Olver is, and Cain is supposed to be ugly.  And Olver is going  to be taught a lot of weaponry, tactics among other things.  And we know that Cain is running around in the world of the flesh at the moment.

Robert Jordan explicitly denied the Olver being Gaidal Cain reborn.

http://www.dragonmount.com/Faq/index.php?action=artikel&cat=12&id=541&artlang=en

 

[Achoo]

But Jordan doesn't say the Wheel has no beginnnings or endings; he says there are no beginnings to the turning of the Wheel. The Creator could not have created the Wheel at a point of time, since time did not exist until the Wheel and Pattern were built. The Wheel was made already fully functional and having turned forever. I realize this is poorly explained and my explanation(if it deserves that name) could be severely misinterpreted. I just can't think of a better way to put it just now.

[thatsnotgood]

Though the wheel does have an ending.  If the Dark one breaks out and recreates the world in his image.  Though that brings up the question of; was the dark one fully free in AoL? Because if he was why didn't he just break the wheel then?

[water_seeker]

Though that brings up the question of; was the dark one fully free in AoL? Because if he was why didn't he just break the wheel then?

 

No, he wasn't fully free.  It's almost as though he had an arm out and could effect things to a degree, but he wasn't fully out.

[Achoo]

If the Dark One breaks free, the world will still exist, except the Pattern will be severely disrupted and the world would be a miserable place to live in. It's not an ending, only a drastic turnaround.

 

I have decide to try to sort of almost come close clarifying what I meant. The Creator sees all the time we see progressing at the same time. Instead, He moves in a different direction. Whereas we would move forward or, with great skill, backwards, He moves down and possibly up. Picture a square passing through a line. If the square were as long as the line, the inhabitants of the line would see the square everywhere in the universe at once. Once he was through, he would dissapear all at once from everywhere. From the square's perspective, he only moved though a small space in his universe, but to the lines, he was everywhere. Except we're dealing with time, so the Creator To Him, He spent very little time working on the universe. To us, He was there for all of eternity. The characters would see that he had created the Wheel ect. a long time ago, which is true, but what they can't see is that He is still creating it and will always be creating it, not in a long, drawn out task, but in one blinding flash (as He sees it). The characters would find this concept riduculous because one has a hard time looking at the universe from an outside perspective when one is in the universe. We have the benefit of looking in on their universe. I think I may have just confused things more :-\.

[Kaznen]

In one of RJ's blogs he said the wheel will turn and turn forever, enles the DO gets free.

 

And as for wether that is phiscally possible or not he was asked in his bolg if the sun will ever die out and consume the earth and RJ's reply was:

"Not in this universe."

 

And about Olver/Gaidal Cain:

Before RJ said it wasn't so I thought that when he was spun out a boy of about eight years just appeared in Cairahien with memories in his head of being named Olver and of all the crap that happened to him.

 

But before he appeared the boy never existed and neither did his family.

 

But RJ said no, so I was wrong.

[Achoo]

I don't have any proof except that the Wheel has no beginning. This was only the most logical explanation I could think of that allowed for that and still have the Creator create the Wheel.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

 

We know that Ishamael wishes he was tied to the Wheel.  He was lying.  He likes to think of himself as the "anti-Dragon", but it's probably a different nihilist with each turning.

 

Some random Nihilist would hardly be effective though. Ishy is the threat he is because he's the only dark friend as strong as Lews Therin.

[zanotam]

Actually, my understanding is that the DO very likely HAS one before, I can't remember any quotes, but I do remember at least a few people finding some facts out of place and very disturbing. Also, that doesn't make any sense, if the Wheel has no beginnings or ends unless the DO breaks free, then the wheel does not exist because the DO will inevitably escape and thus in breaking it all will cease to exist and since everything inevitably that can happen will happen (and has happened, if only in an alternative universe) the wheel will have the exact same chance of stopping in any turning....The point is that IT CANNOT WORK LIKE THAT! Just like the claim that the DO will be held in all or none of the worlds, free in all or none, since in TGH Rand appeared to see other worlds, MANY other worlds in which he never realized his destiny and the DO won, than the DO has to be free and the Wheel broken. The obvious conclusion is that even if he breaks free the DO cannot actually break time, maybe it just ends the last age and begins the first one anew, but he can't.

1. DO free = No more time.

2. Infinite turnings, infinite possibilities.

3. DO free in 1 world, free in all; held in one world, held in all.

4. Infinite worlds each playing out possibilities

 

The DO cannot actually break time, because if he did time would cease to exist, the wheel would cease, and the book would have no setting. It's kinda like how if you have the expression f(x)=1/X, it does not exist where the zero is (it can be defined using limits however), and thus limited at a specific point and so an additional rule needs to be added, f(x)=1/x x=/=0 and so a fifth rule must be added

 

5. The DO can never break free

 

 

That's the only way for the paradoxes to exist and still have a turning wheel of time.

[zanotam]

No, I think you misunderstand my argument. Taking into account the nature of the wheel, the universe weave (since it's like the wheel weaving, which becomes the pattern which becomes the age lace which combines with other worlds to make something even bigger), and the Dark One, he can never break free. If he did, he would break time itself, and because of the nature of the pattern and the wheel then everything would cease to exist, but not just everything in the everyplace and everyone sense, but everytime, everyperson, everythread, everypattern, everybeing, EVERYTHING, would and thus nothing would exist and thus nothing would ever have existed or ever exist previously and thus the DO would presumably cease to exist. We know that Rand has in previous lives at one point or another served the DO, he's fought him, he's died ignorant, he's done many things, and since if he served he would live forever and become super massive awesome, something had to rise up against him and the DO to stop them, and hence even if the DO breaks free, he cannot deliver upon all his promises, I know a few of the DF (and forsaken?) have been shown to have their thoughts float that way occasionally and then just realize that they don't WANT to think about that and what it could mean.

 

[zanotam]

If he did, he would break time itself, and because of the nature of the pattern and the wheel then everything would cease to exist, but not just everything in the everyplace and everyone sense, but everytime, everyperson, everythread, everypattern, everybeing, EVERYTHING, would and thus nothing would exist and thus nothing would ever have existed or ever exist previously and thus the DO would presumably cease to exist.

 

No.  The Dark One is not within the Pattern.  He can exist (such as his existence is) without it.  Indeed, such an existence (if it can actually be called "existence") may well be his preferred state.  In it, all "existence" would be in his image; the embodiment of chaos and paradox, utterly without order.  Time itself is his prison.

 

We know that Rand has in previous lives at one point or another served the DO

 

No, we don't.  We know that Ishamael said that the Dragon served in previous lifetimes.  But Ishy lies a lot.

 

hence even if the DO breaks free, he cannot deliver upon all his promises, I know a few of the DF (and forsaken?) have been shown to have their thoughts float that way occasionally and then just realize that they don't WANT to think about that and what it could mean.

 

I'm pretty sure that the Dark One is preparing to royally screw over the Forsaken, all except Moridin, who wants it that way.

 

Ah okay. I admit I'm a little bit biased, I admit Ishamael may be crazy, but sane people rarely seem to know what they're talking about anyways, and he does seem to know a lot...

[thatsnotgood]

When in the series do DF / forsaken start floating that way?  Just reference points will be fine, don't need page numbers.  I don't remember any of them thinking about anything but the promise of immortality.

 

 

[Keithie]

The idea of the 'wheel' of time is from Hindu mythology right?

 

Here is an extract from Alan Watts on the End of Days Hindu style:

"And at the end of the kali-yuga, the great destroyer of the worlds, God manifested as the destructive principle Shiva, does a dance called the tandava, and he appears, blue-bodied with ten arms, with lightning and fire appearing from every pore in his skin, and does a dance in which the universe is finally destroyed.  The moment of cosmic death is the waking up of Brahma, the creator, for as Shiva turns round and walks off the stage, seen from behind, he is Brahma, the creator, the beginning of it all again." 

 

So maybe the Dark One is the Creator! And if he wins it all just starts again..

 

 

Here is a link to the full essay By Alan Watts if you are interested:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/12737933/Cosmic-Drama-by-Alan-Watts

 

[Mr Ares]

Ishy is the threat he is because he's the only dark friend as strong as Lews Therin.

No, he isn't. Strength isn't that big an asset.

[zanotam]

Ishy is the threat he is because he's the only dark friend as strong as Lews Therin.

No, he isn't. Strength isn't that big an asset.

 

Um, Ishy is lucky, he's powerful in both the OP and TP, he is crazy, but he's been manipulating history for 3000+ years, when he says someone is to die they die (if you pay close attention in TGH prologue, he seems to WANT those 3 to survive), and he is still mysterious and awesome. If the books were a movie, Ishy would be played by Samuel L. Jackson, Sean Connery, and Harrison Ford (since he's way too awesome to be portrayed by one actor)

[Majsju]

Ishy is the threat he is because he's the only dark friend as strong as Lews Therin.

No, he isn't. Strength isn't that big an asset.

 

Um, Ishy is lucky, he's powerful in both the OP and TP, he is crazy, but he's been manipulating history for 3000+ years, when he says someone is to die they die (if you pay close attention in TGH prologue, he seems to WANT those 3 to survive), and he is still mysterious and awesome. If the books were a movie, Ishy would be played by Samuel L. Jackson, Sean Connery, and Harrison Ford (since he's way too awesome to be portrayed by one actor)

 

Pft. There is one actor who is even more awesome than Ishy himself, and that is NPH.

[Mr Ares]

Ishy is the threat he is because he's the only dark friend as strong as Lews Therin.

No, he isn't. Strength isn't that big an asset.

Um, Ishy is lucky, he's powerful in both the OP and TP

Um, so what? Being stronger in the Power doesn't matter all that much. Ishy might be a threat, but he would still be a threat if he was weaker. It is not his strength that makes him a threat.

when he says someone is to die they die (if you pay close attention in TGH prologue, he seems to WANT those 3 to survive)

If you pay close attention to the Dragon Reborn, he tries to kill Rand. Rand is still alive. Attempts are also made on the lives of Mat and Perrin. He wanted them dead, none of them died. Unless I missed something really big in TDR.