The Taint

[Skinwalker]

If the Dark One had been sealed in his prison with both halves of the true source (Saidar AND Saidin, as opposed to JUST Saidin) would both of them have been tainted?

 

 

Which do you think would happen?

[Dragonsworn]

Of course the other half would be tainted...but no idea what it would do to the Aes Sedai...like knowing if Manson suddenly goes crazy...how would you know???

[HighLordXanthus]

I think if it had been a joint undertaking by both men and women, they would have been able to link, use the Choedan Kal (the two strongest sa'angreal keystones) and there would not have been a seal with seven focus points as the hundered companions chose to do. What the hundered companions did was like putting a cork in a leaking bucket. With the Choedan Kal and men and women linked to do the work, it would have been truelly healed and the bore completely closed. I think if it had been done that way, the DO would have been cut of from the world and the taint would have never happened.

[vikingdriver]

I haven't gotten that far yet but I do think that there is some channeling that requires both Siadin and Siadar. With out the finishing touch of the other such as sealing up the Dark one..., and unbalance, a taint occured to the one power.

[Graf Ashaman]

The main question is how was the DO doing the tainting? When Rand cleaned Saidin he pulled the Source through Shadar Logoth, as I see it the DO made a pool where all of Saidin had to go through, like sun that shines through a sunglass. RJ describes the taint like rancid oil on the surface of clean water, so I do not think that Saidin goes through the prison of the DO. Because if it would Rand would never have been able to cleans Saidin without breaking open the Seal of the DO´s prison. Also Ishy describes the tainting of the male source as "a backlash of the Dark One for sealing his prison" leaving all male channelers from the 100 companions mad on the spot. Think of it like you trying to close the door of a used toilett that has no ventilation suystem, the smell comes out from th upper half of the opening when you close the door because air is pushed in from the lower half. As for why only Saidin and not also Saidar, I think either the DO had only time for one source, or he just did it because LTT is male and he was the one responsible for the sealing.

[Luckers]

Without knowing anything about how the Dark Ones abilities work its impossible to say with any degree of accuracy... but i suspect that the taint WOULD'NT have occured if both men and women were involved. Its been a recurring theme in RJ's work that is is in standing together that the greatest achievements to be made, and the second devision occurs tragedy strikes.

 

Also, to the person who suggested that if a link had been made the Choedan Kal could be used... this is not so. Part of the reason the bore was sealed in that way was that the Access Keys to the Choedan Kal had been lost. A circle would not aid in that. If it could have, then there would have been no need to attempt to seal the bore anyway.

[Guest cwestervelt]

When Rand cleaned Saidin he pulled the Source through Shadar Logoth, as I see it the DO made a pool where all of Saidin had to go through, like sun that shines through a sunglass.

 

The Taint was removed by funnelling Saidin through a channel of Saidar, not be pulling Saidin through Shadar Logoth. This fits with the rancid oil on water concept that was mentioned. Just like water and oil don't mix, and the oil can be removed with the right technique, the Taint and Saidin didn't mix and could be seperated with the proper technique.

 

Shadar Logoth was chosen as the site for the cleansing because of the effect the cleansing would have on Shadar Logoth, not for the effect that Shadar Logoth would have on the cleansing. When skimming the Taint off of Saidin it was necessary to send the pure evil Taint somewhere. Shadar Logoth provided an ideal location.

[HighLordXanthus]

yes, the keys had been lost. I had been speaking theoretically. obviously the hundered companions did as they did as a last resort.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Source: http://www.tor.com/shayol.html

Just as the paired sa'angreal were completed, disaster struck. The access ter'angreal were being made at a place far removed from the sa'angreal (apparently because of a danger of "uncontrolled resonances during the final stages," whatever that means), and that region was overrun by forces under Sammael. The only good point in it was that the ter'angreal themselves had been hidden and the place where they were made destroyed (its very existence had been a secret at the highest levels all along) so that neither Sammael nor anyone else for the Shadow knew that any of these things were now within their grasp. The side of the Light still had the sa'angreal, but no safe way to access them; without the ter'angreal it was certain that even the strongest Aes Sedai would be burned out instantly by the huge flow of the One Power.

 

Source: http://encyclopaedia-wot.org:8008/items/giant_statue.html

During the War of Power, two huge sa'angreal, one attuned to saidin and one to saidar, were constructed. The Choedan Kal were to be used to destroy the Shadow's forces and erect a barrier around Shayol Ghul until there was a safe method to permanently seal the Bore. The great sa'angreal were so powerful that using them required special ter'angreal access keys which were assembled in an area far removed. The access keys were lost and the Choedan Kal were never used (SaSG).

 

The Encyclopedia WoT has it wrong. The access keys were hidden away to keep them from the Shadow, they were not lost. At least some Aes Sedai maintained knowledge of the keys location as two of them were recovered and given into the Aiel's keeping during the early stages of the Breaking.

[Jonn]

I read about this subject on other sites and I believe they got it from the guide.

 

Lews Therin wanted the strike on Shayol Ghul to be done with the help of women linked to men, but he was opposed by Latra Posae, a high ranking female Aes Sedai also known as Shadar Nor (Cutter of the Shadow).

Her idea was to use the Choedan Kal to erect a huge barrier to seal off the Dark One's prison. The two factions came to an impasse where Latra Posae convinced the females to stay out of the plan Lews Therin put together, but Lews Therin went ahead and attacked Shayol Ghul with his army and the Hundred Companions.

 

It's largely thought that because Latra Posae convinced the women to not go in on the Strike, this is what spared Saidar from being tainted as well. Another line of thought is that with the help of a full link between men and women, the sheer force of the Power would have been too strong for the Dark One to overcome and taint fully.

 

How much grief could have been saved if Latra had agreed to go with Lews Therin's plan? How much grief would there have been had both sides been tainted?

 

All we know now is that Latra Posae's project of the Choedan Kal was the key to the Cleansing 3000 years later.

[mike]

this is purely theoretical to the point of feeling the taint...

 

my 2 pennies...

i would suggest the notions that the male side was either A. the only one used or B. DO has as much to do with saidar as any male does.

 

we are debating about the ONE power here and not the TRUE power: there is a difference. the True power is tied in with DO whereas the ONE power is anyone's choosing. i am hazy about the who, how and what for's of the distinctions but they are different according to the mind of rj.

 

THIS could prove to be a spoiler...

before the sealing and the breaking the male and female halves of the ONE power worked together harmoniously. this reminder is symbolic through the black and white yin/yang symbol for the ancient aes sedai that rand's banner suggests as well as the red headbands the aiel wear.

it has to come together again and i bet cadsuane has a hand in it. she has to be that old.

 

if i am wrong don't use balefire as it will upset the pattern and any that read this will cease to exist.

simply knock the wheel from its axis and let it roll somewhere else. maybe it can play havoc with harry potter for a while. :P

[Luckers]

Actually cwestervelt, they were lost. they were hidden away far from the site of the Choedan Kal themselves, but that territory was over run. There were incursions made to retrieve them which failed. They were lost to the light, and John, that was when Lews Therin revisited his plan to seal the bore, which he originally put aside in favour of the Choedan Kal plan. When he revisited it, Latra Prosae acted against him and got the women who were strong enough to join the circle to sign a document later called the Fateful Concord.

[Graf Ashaman]

Actually cwestervelt' date=' they were lost. they were hidden away far from the site of the Choedan Kal themselves, but that territory was over run. There were incursions made to retrieve them which failed. They were lost to the light, and John, that was when Lews Therin revisited his plan to seal the bore, which he originally put aside in favour of the Choedan Kal plan. When he revisited it, Latra Prosae acted against him and got the women who were strong enough to join the circle to sign a document later called the Fateful Concord.[/quote']

 

You are right, but not completly. Latra Prosae convinced the women to stay out of LTT´s plan but he had some buddies that helped him anyway, as to why only Saidin was tainted, your guess is as good as mine since RJ did not give enough clues to make any theory a fact. But what I belief is this: The DO is not the creator, therfore his abilities are limited and we know that the taint was a "backlash" from the DO for being sealed again (I know Ishy commented on that but I think he did not lie in this case), and since the DO was sealed I belief he had only one chance before he was cut off from this world to do some harm. Think! The DO is the essence of evil, do you really belief he would not have tainted Saidar as well if he could have? The DO does not fight fair or to put it in words from Melaine (a wise one): In a fight there is only win and lose, rules are for children´s games not to get hurt... And from me: The DO does not know mercy!!!

[Guest cwestervelt]

The access Keys were inaccessible. You can say the Keys were "lost" provided that you qualify it with the clarification that, while their location was known, the Keys were beyond the reach of the good guys. That isn't how Encyclopedia WoT describes it, and that is why I said they have it wrong.

 

When The Encyclopedia WoT says the Keys were lost, they state, "The access keys were lost and the Choedan Kal were never used." Thin provides the impression no one knew where the Keys were. They cite The Strike at Shayol Ghul as the source for the information, but they leave out important pieces of information. They don't acknowledge the fact that the Keys were hidden to keep them from Sammael. Nor do they acknowledge the fact that information concerning the location of the Keys was maintained and that 2 of the Keys were later recovered and given to the Aiel for safe keeping.

 

Addition: I'm making this point for a reason and not just to be a pain or stickler for context. While reading this thread, I noticed several references to the Keys having been lost prior to the Breaking making it so the Choedan Kal couldn't be used. Each time I sat there thinking, "Where did they get that?"

[Luckers]

Which is a reasonable use of the word lost in the form of something which is beyond reach or influence. It was 'lost' to the Light.

 

Graf, if you are implying that LTT had women who helped him you are wrong. ALL women of significant strength, as well as many not of that strength signed the Fateful Concord. In the end only men accompanied LTT to the Sealing. The Hundred Companions, to be specific. Young men who had come to follow LTT's lead.

[Graf Ashaman]

Sorry mate but this is only speculation. RJ did not write that only men went with LTT to seal the bore, while I belief that putting the seals in place does not actually need women, I do not think that men alone went. RJ wirtes very realistic when it comes to male or female characters and the battle of different sex. And while a lot of women would consider to be the "resonable" ones and stay out of it, friendship and love would make one or another woman acompany the men. Also it would be very chauvinistic for RJ to make men the savour of humankind and leave women completly out of it. But I agree that it looks like the men did the major work since only Saidin got tainted but again I ask you: "Why did the DO only taint only the male source?" Easyly answered: "Because men sealed the bore" But also I ask you: "When has RJ been just easy and simple minded? In his books he always challanges us with complexyty and surprises us by showing his wit and intelligence. Why would he now make something so simpleminded?"

[Luckers]

Actually he did. Several times--amongst them the BWB, the strike at shayol ghoul and quite often within the main sequence books as well. LTT took only the Hundred Compainions and a force of Soldiers numbering 10,000.

[Graf Ashaman]

Actually he did. Several times--amongst them the BWB' date=' the strike at shayol ghoul and quite often within the main sequence books as well. LTT took only the Hundred Compainions and a force of Soldiers numbering 10,000.[/quote']

 

Yes, 100 companions, but not 100 MALE companions and a force of 10.000 Soldiers but not 10.000 MALE soldiers. What about Birgitt Silverbow? I am pretty sure she was part of those 10.000 altough it is not proven. But let´s not pick on it, you have your opinion and I have mine. The correct answers we could only get from RJ and I think he would smile if he read about our argument.

[Guest cwestervelt]

It has been directly stated that it was 113 male channellers. The approximately 10000 soldiers, once again not an exact number, are also refered to as being male. Since they were not channellers they really don't count as far as speculation on the Taint goes if Saidar had been used too though.

 

From the BWB page 47

A group of powerful young male Aes Sedai, vocal to the point of disrupting meetings at the Hall of the Servants, had supported Lews Therin during the struggle with Latra Posae. This group was popularly called the Hundred Companions, though they actually numbered 113 at this point. With the Hundred Companions and a force of some ten thousand warmen, Lews Therin launched the planned attack on the Bore.

[Luckers]

Also, we know only that Birgitte faught in the war of shadows, not that she had anything to do with LTT... indeed, indications based on what she's said suggest she never encountered the man nor knew much about him or his tactics.

[Graf Ashaman]

Which book is BWB?

 

And yes we don´t know if Birgitte fought alongside LTT but what we know is that she fought Mogedhien and that Mogedhien knew her although she was not in her Birgitte flesh. So your guess is as good as mine.

[Luckers]

It stands for Big White Book. It refers to a book called The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time. Its a compendium of information about the series, that extract comes from it, though it was also in the Strike At Shayol Ghoul.

[Jorik Alarin]

Well boy howdy now here's a kicker...what if Cadsuane IS Latra Prosae :shock: ...that would explain A LOT....it would explain her attitude; her seemingly endless knowledge her total lack of respect for Rand...(i mean if she went against LTT, and he was without a doubt as strong as Rand and considerably more knowledgeable about the power, why should she give even a sniff of respect to this infant known as the Dragon Reborn)...maybe every 300 years or so she just kind of disappears from the ranks of the Aes Sedai...remember many sisters thought that Cadsuane was dead....then comes back later as a different Aes Sedai....its not like they have picture I.D.'s or a databse of what Aes Sedai look like. We know that Aes Sedai can live to be close to 1000...Alivia is over 600...and she certainly doesnt look old. So is it really impossible that an Aes Sedai could live to be 3000 years old?

[Zardi]

Where do we have an Aes Sedai who's close to 1000 years old? :?

 

I don't think Cadsuane could be any AS from 3000 years ago. Certainly someone would notice if an AS suddenly appeared who had never been written into the novice book.

[Jorik Alarin]

Gah ....for effect i consider Alivia to be an Aes Sedai...not because shes tower trained but because she can use the one power and has a greatly increased life span like Age of Legend Aes Sedai. Being current age Aes Sedai, is what totally demolishes a one power users life span (you know their binding with the oath rod, like common criminals from the age of legends). In every physical description RJ has given of Alivia she doesnt appear to be a frail old woman on deaths door ( which means she probably has many years left to live barring unforseen violent death or sickness). So there is an "Aes Sedai" that is close to 1000 years old. As for Cadsuane coming back as a different sister each time, im not saying that she came back as a brand spanking new sister, im saying that maybe every 300 years or so she learns of a sister that is going into "retirement" waits for that sister to pass and then assumes her identity and gets reinvolved in the tower as that sister "coming out of retirement." Ala what we heard about when Cadsuane first appeared.