The Taint

[Guest Majsju]

Alivia is about 400 years old, not 600.

 

According to BWB, 300 years was middle aged for a channeler in the AOL,

"For Aes Sedai it was considerably longer, since use of the One Power somehow enhanced the youth and durability of the channeler's body, greatly extending his or her life. There are records of some Aes Sedai being considered barely middle-aged at three hundred years, and some channelers may have lived seven hundred years or more."

 

So, not even in the AOL channeler lived to be 1000 years old.

[Skinwalker]

perhaps she sleeps in a stasis box?

[Zardi]

Gah ....for effect i consider Alivia to be an Aes Sedai

Sorry, I should have been more clear. It wasn't the Aes Sedai part I was questioning, it was the 1000-year-old part. 600, or even 700, years old is not close to 1000. That's like saying a 60- or 70-year-old is almost 100. They aren't ;)

 

perhaps she sleeps in a stasis box?

Meh. Like I said:

I don't think Cadsuane could be any AS from 3000 years ago. Certainly someone would notice if an AS suddenly appeared who had never been written into the novice book.

[Luckers]

Cadsuane herself has set a limit on her age when she was talking about finishing her training, becoming Aes Sedai and meeting that wilder in the Black Hills. She's around 300. Her POV completely disproves this.

 

Additionally, Latra Posae Decume died in the breaking, according to the Strike at Shayol Ghoul.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Thanks Luckers. After reading the the crazed theories on Cadsuane's age I was about to go look that passage about the Wilder up and mention it. You saved me the time and trouble.

 

Addition: Does anyone think she will get to find out what the last of her ornaments does? I think there is a mention of at least one still being a mystery to her.

[Jonn]

Thanks Luckers. After reading the the crazed theories on Cadsuane's age I was about to go look that passage about the Wilder up and mention it. You saved me the time and trouble.

 

Addition: Does anyone think she will get to find out what the last of her ornaments does? I think there is a mention of at least one still being a mystery to her.

 

My guess is that they involve saidin. It's a decent explanation as to why she wouldn't know how to use them, or test them even.

[Luckers]

They seem to have been made as set, and since the others are made for saidar it would be strange to have some made for saidin. Its possible they have some use which is pointless now... like involving standing weaves, or to block things that Cadsuane has never encountered.

[Lews Therin Telamon]

The Dark One wasnt bound with Saidin. When Lews Therin sealed the bore, the Dark Ones counter-attacked by putting the Taint on Saidin just before he was bound. Saidin wasnt bound with him; the Dark One, realising that it was solely male channellers who had bound him, tainted the male half. Im guessing that if it was Saidar channellers who had bound him he would have tainted saidar. But Saidin definitely was NOT bound with him otherwise nobody would have been able to channel saidin at all after the bore was sealed

[RobertAlexWillis]

The seals were focus points for a weave that sealed the Bore. Because the Bore touches the "place" (i use the term loosely) outside the Pattern where the Dark One is imprisoned, that meant that the seal created by Saidin touched that place too, giving the Dark One access to it, allowing "him" to taint it. I put "him" in quotes there to emphasise the fact that the Dark One is neither male nor female, and so the taint on Saidin has nothing to do with the Dark One being a guy.

 

I imagine that if Saidar had been used, it would have been tainted as well. I don't think that resealing the Bore is a matter of covering it with the Power. The Pattern has to be healed. It is described as "thin" in the Pit of Doom. The Power may be able to heal the Pattern somehow, but using it directly on the Bore is just giving the Dark One access.

[mike]

if there was no taint, how would a man know which was which? :roll:

[RobertAlexWillis]

You know .... thats just plain disgusting ....

[mike]

RobertAlexWillis,

You know .... thats just plain disgusting ....

 

 

you know...you should pull your head out of your bottom as you are finding a double entendre where one wasn't intended.

 

it took me a while to figure out your intent and even had to go to the urban dictionary.

 

PC is rampant on this site for no reason at all.

if any of you are artists you had better stray from a PC mindset as it will hinder your creative thinking and ultimately your art.

PC = censorship. don't believe me? look for yourselves what the PC patrol loves to attack. it is also hypocritical as any minority that is championed by the PC patrol can lash out against the majority with no repercussions. watch MTV,FOX or the WB. comedy ccentral is also a good case in point.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I didn't say you should be censored. And I didn't ask the mods to come in stop you. I said I thought that was disgusting. And I find it disingenuous of you to claim that you didn't intend the double entendre. Why post it otherwise? Considering some of the other taco related posts I've seen from you, you are either extremely disingenuous, or incredibly naive. If you are just naive, I apologize.

[Luckers]

Don't bother Robert, Mike is a self-centred trouble-maker convinced everything that is slightly different from him is a vicious attack on him. And im fairly certain you were right about what he was intending to say.

[Genesis_XVI]

Easy boys, we're all friends here.

 

Now to the important issue... the taint:

 

I agree with luckers earlier post. Specifically the example cited about the reoccurring theme of men and women working together to achieve the best results. I believe that because only Saidin was used, there was some kind of gap (not necessarily tangible in the weave), but a crack that let Shaitan in. This allowed him to taint the source being weilded against him (indirectly; weilded against him). I also believe this metaphoric crack would not have existed if the two powers had been used in conjuction :D

 

Just to add my two cents to some other points:

 

Choedan Kal use is redundant. Even if they had had the CK, they were never factored into the re-sealing of the bore. The BWB specifies the specific ratio of channelers required (I think). The CK weren't needed to do it. People who think that LT needed the 100 Companions to compensate for the lost power are also mistaken. This was what was needed given that the right circle couldn't be formed. (I forget what this circle was, but I think it was smaller than the maximum 72) Like was previously stated, the CK's influence ends at the fact that LT decided to devise another plan when they weren't immediately available.

 

Re: Birgitte. It does say somewhere that she served and fought alongside LT, only her name wasn't Birgitte, it started with 'S' I think. And she wasn't one of the 10,000 warmen, as she was already dead. She died before Mog could get revenge.

 

I hope what I'm saying is accurate, I don't have my books with me, so it's all from memory. Oh well, someone will correct me if I'm not.

 

Ciao,

 

-Genesis_XVI

[RobertAlexWillis]

I politely disagree.

 

The One Power was not made to imprison Shai'tan. It was made to drive the Wheel. The only way to really keep the Dark One out is to somehow reseal the Bore in its original form. Herid Fel discussed this with Rand. I think he was killed because he figured out how to do it. But they discussed and dismissed the possibility that the Prison was created with a patch, and therefore, no patch will be sufficient to seal away his influence entirely. Since he must be imprisoned completely before the Wheel turns back to the Second Age (they had not even myths, much less memory of his influence) there must be a way to allow the Prison to return to its original state. That is not the purpose of the Power. It would be more likely the purpose of ta'veren. To quote the philosophy of the BWB:

 

"Even the ta'veren and the Web of Destiny woven around them are bound by the Wheel and the Great Pattern; it is believed that the Wheel spins out ta'veren whenever the weave begins to drift away from the Pattern. The changes around them, while often drastic and unsettling for those who must live in the Age, are thought to be part of the Wheel's own correcting mechanism. The more change needed to bring the Great Pattern into balance, the more ta'veren spun out into the world." (Chapter One, The Wheel and the Power, p. 14)

 

The only part of the power exposed to the Dark One's touch at the Bore was tainted. If both parts had been exposed, the seal would still have been insufficient (because it would still be a patch, not the original state) and still allowed the Dark One some influence. Whether the taint would have been half as strong on both, or full strength on both, I believe both would have been affected, since both would have been exposed.

 

Now what is the exact mechanism by which ta'veren can heal the Bore?

 

:D I have no idea ... but I'm really looking forward to finding out.

 

 

Oh ... but I agree with the bits about the Choedan Kal's irrelevant and Birgitte not being with Lews Therin during the Strike.

[Luckers]

The wording of the taint was that the Dark One struck back, not that it was a result of touching the Dark One.

 

Moreover, this is disproven in its nature. The Tain was instantly effective in the Age of Legends, so were it to be a result of mere contact then the Taint would have returned within minitues of it being cleansed. Nor is the Taint a result of the fact that saidin is accessable to the Dark One through the seal. It was something about the actual process of placing the seal that opened saidin to being tainted.

 

Additionally, i dont think anyone suggested the One Power was made to imprison the Dark One.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The wording of the taint was that the Dark One struck back, not that it was a result of touching the Dark One.

 

You can only "strike" something you can "touch".

 

It was something about the actual process of placing the seal that opened saidin to being tainted.

 

Then if saidar was involved in placing the seal, it would be exposed to being tainted.

 

Additionally, i dont think anyone suggested the One Power was made to imprison the Dark One.

 

The whole plan was to patch the Bore with the Power. Using the Power, in effect, to imprison the Dark One. It won't work, with one or both parts of the Power. I made the point about the One Power's purpose to support the idea that it cannot be used to fix something that it wasn't made for. I know no one here suggested it, and I didn't mean to imply that. Sorry :oops:

[Luckers]

You can only "strike" something you can "touch".

 

Perhaps, but you can touch without striking. Strike is an active word, implying will. Touch is both passive and active depending on context... and my context was passive. Surely you could see that.

 

The differentiation i was making was that it was something specific in the act of creating the bore that opened the men to being tainted, and that it was an intentional action on the Dark Ones part. He struck out at them, rather then it resulting merely from rubbing up against him.

 

Then if saidar was involved in placing the seal, it would be exposed to being tainted.

 

Perhaps. The nature of the link may have protected the circle as a whole--it might be into that gap that the Dark One slipped, linking taint to saidin where saidar should have been. We have no proof either way, but it would be very like RJ--the most constant theme in his series is that men and women should work together, and when they dont bad things happen.

 

The whole plan was to patch the Bore with the Power. Using the Power, in effect, to imprison the Dark One. It won't work, with one or both parts of the Power. I made the point about the One Power's purpose to support the idea that it cannot be used to fix something that it wasn't made for. I know no one here suggested it, and I didn't mean to imply that.

 

Firstly, you have no evidence that a circle including both men and women would be open to the same attack from the Dark One.

 

Secondly, it's widely acknowledged that the seal was never more then just that, a seal; a patch, so im not sure what point you are trying to make, and again you don't know if LTT's original plan of sex men and seven women might not have worked better. My bet is that it would have. A linked circle wouldn't have the gaps between the weavings that the individual men must have had, no matter how minute they would have been. It would have been a single seal, and something that is whole is much harder to break then something made out of pieces.

 

Thirdly, the power was made to turn the wheel... it was never meant to do any of the things channelers do with it. Doesn't mean they dont work, and doesn't mean it wont be possible to find a way to reseal the bore properly, or at least permanantly, with the power... i dont think they will, but it isn't impossible.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Perhaps, but you can touch without striking. Strike is an active word, implying will. Touch is both passive and active depending on context... and my context was passive. Surely you could see that.

 

The differentiation i was making was that it was something specific in the act of creating the bore that opened the men to being tainted, and that it was an intentional action on the Dark Ones part. He struck out at them, rather then it resulting merely from rubbing up against him.

 

Yes, but you can only strike if you can touch. I was saying that the only reason Saidar was not tainted too was that it was unavailable to be touched, therefore, unavailable to be struck.

 

The act of OPENING the Bore was done by men and women (led by Mierin, who became Lanfear, and Beidomon, who committed suicide after an attempt at self imposed obscurity), and resulted in no counterstrike (since the Dark One liked it). It was something specific in the act of SEALING the bore that resulted in a tainted counterstroke on all the forms of the Power used. Saidin. If saidar had been involved in SEALING the bore, it would have been just as available to counterstroke, because it would have been "exposed" to the Dark One in exactly the same way saidin was. He would be able to touch it, and so choose to strike it.

 

Firstly, you have no evidence that a circle including both men and women would be open to the same attack from the Dark One.

 

And you have admitted that there is none against. The only evidence present is the effect on the Power that WAS used. It got tainted.

 

Secondly, it's widely acknowledged that the seal was never more then just that, a seal; a patch, so im not sure what point you are trying to make, and again you don't know if LTT's original plan of sex men and seven women might not have worked better. My bet is that it would have. A linked circle wouldn't have the gaps between the weavings that the individual men must have had, no matter how minute they would have been. It would have been a single seal, and something that is whole is much harder to break then something made out of pieces.

 

The Seals that were used were constructed with Lews Therin's original plan in mind. The plan was flawed, whoever participated, because it was an attempt to patch with the Power what had not been created with the Power. The tainted counterstroke did not "slip through" "gaps" in the weave, it directly affected the Power itself.

 

Thirdly, the power was made to turn the wheel... it was never meant to do any of the things channelers do with it. Doesn't mean they dont work, and doesn't mean it wont be possible to find a way to reseal the bore properly, or at least permanantly, with the power... i dont think they will, but it isn't impossible.

 

That part about what channelers actually do with the Power is a valid point I hoped you wouldn't think of. :D Nevertheless, I think that the fabric of the Dark One's prison is too fundamental to slip through that loophole. Channelers affect things inside the Pattern and the Wheel. The Dark One is outside it, and not a part of it.

[Graf Ashaman]

I think you got it wrong! RJ mentions in his books that the taint is like rancid oil on clear water and also that it was a counterstroke. That tells us that Saidin was not always open to being tainted. I imagine it like something the DO vomited out the moment the seal went in place. It is also the only explanation of how Rand was even able to clean Saidin by squeezing the taint away from Saidin with Saidar and then sending the taint into Shadar Logoth. Also the sealing must be something different than cuendillar but I agree that men and women working together could heal the whole in the pattern that Lanfear made.

 

I agree though that it cannot be patched with the One Power alone. I am thinking about the way men travel, they bend the pattern and then bore a hole through it. So it must be a weave that "heals" the pattern!

[Luckers]

Yes, but you can only strike if you can touch. I was saying that the only reason Saidar was not tainted too was that it was unavailable to be touched, therefore, unavailable to be struck.

 

In your opinion. There is absolutely no evidence of it.

 

The act of OPENING the Bore was done by men and women (led by Mierin, who became Lanfear, and Beidomon, who committed suicide after an attempt at self imposed obscurity), and resulted in no counterstrike (since the Dark One liked it). It was something specific in the act of SEALING the bore that resulted in a tainted counterstroke on all the forms of the Power used. Saidin. If saidar had been involved in SEALING the bore, it would have been just as available to counterstroke, because it would have been "exposed" to the Dark One in exactly the same way saidin was. He would be able to touch it, and so choose to strike it.

 

Again there is no evidence of this at all. All that we know is that saidin was in someway vulnerable during that brief time. The presense of saidar completely changes no only the nature of the channelers involved, but the nature of the channeling. To make this leap in intiution with no support is unsubstantiated.

 

And you have admitted that there is none against. The only evidence present is the effect on the Power that WAS used. It got tainted.

 

There is against. A linked circle is different in nature to men channeling alone. Its like an open hand, to two hands clasping each other. One is open, the other i linked to another form. Additionally there is the nature of Robert Jordan's writing to concider. Whenever men and women act individually bad things happen, when they dont they succeed.

 

The Seals that were used were constructed with Lews Therin's original plan in mind. The plan was flawed, whoever participated, because it was an attempt to patch with the Power what had not been created with the Power. The tainted counterstroke did not "slip through" "gaps" in the weave, it directly affected the Power itself.

 

Again that is purerly your opinion. You have not one quote or supporting scene. Additionally i was speaking of its effectiveness as a seal. The Dark One has been able to break it down more easily because it is a series of seven linked pieces... had it been one whole then it would have been much stronger, and likely held much longer, if not indefinately--that is in the simple nature of how seals work.

 

That part about what channelers actually do with the Power is a valid point I hoped you wouldn't think of. Nevertheless, I think that the fabric of the Dark One's prison is too fundamental to slip through that loophole. Channelers affect things inside the Pattern and the Wheel. The Dark One is outside it, and not a part of it.

 

By that logic the Dark One cannot effect this world either, because he is outside it and not part of it. RJ was a physicist-- his magics will work based on an understanding of opposed forces in an unclosed system, not on the logics of more mystical magics.

 

I get that you have this theory, and i do understand it. But you cant expect other people to accept it stated like fact... it has no support other then your feeling. I don't think its an irrational theory; im just arguing for the viability of the opposite--which i personally think is more likely.

[GTPapabear]

Well, I voted no for one main reason.

 

While reading "The world of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time" by RJ and Theresa Paterson, It was LTT original plan to use both sides to seal the bore.

 

It was opposed by Latra Posae Decume, A prominant speaker at the time, reached an agreement with every female Aes Sedai of significant strength against LTT plan, later to be called "the Fateful Concord".

 

That is why LTT and his "Hundred Companions" attempted to seal the bore.

 

So it is my belife that if the Fateful concord had never happened, and women were involved in the circles, that it would have completely sealed the bore, safely.

 

So i guess that means I also am saying that the Female Aes Sedai are not only responsible for the plan not working as it was supposed to and for the current situation, but ALSO they are responsible for the Taint itself. :evil:

[RobertAlexWillis]

In your opinion. There is absolutely no evidence of it.

 

There is the circumstantial evidence of the fact that everything that WAS used (saidin) was tainted. I understand that channeling saidin alone, and channeling it with saidar enable very different things to be accomplished, and that the most powerful and comprehensive applications of the Power and generated by using both halves together. But there is NO evidence, not even circumstantial, that saidar would have been immune to the counterstroke, or prevented it entirely. The female Forsaken are just as wary of channeling at Shayol Ghul as the males are. And the female Aes Sedai of the AOL were so wary that they wouldn't take part. They obviously didn't think the weave could take effect unaffected.

 

Again there is no evidence of this at all. All that we know is that saidin was in someway vulnerable during that brief time. The presense of saidar completely changes no only the nature of the channelers involved, but the nature of the channeling. To make this leap in intiution with no support is unsubstantiated.

 

There is also no basis to assume that it would have been immune. We can only base our assumptions on what actually occurred. What occurred is that all of the Power used was tainted.

 

Again that is purerly your opinion. You have not one quote or supporting scene. Additionally i was speaking of its effectiveness as a seal. The Dark One has been able to break it down more easily because it is a series of seven linked pieces... had it been one whole then it would have been much stronger, and likely held much longer, if not indefinately--that is in the simple nature of how seals work.

 

Seven linked pieces form a single seal, and the seven focus points would have still existed if both saidin and saidar were used. And we don't know if he broke it down more easily or not. The other type of seal never occurred, so we don't know how long it would have taken him.

 

By that logic the Dark One cannot effect this world either, because he is outside it and not part of it. RJ was a physicist-- his magics will work based on an understanding of opposed forces in an unclosed system, not on the logics of more mystical magics.

 

Actually, by that logic, the Dark One is most able to affect things the closer they are to the "thinness" that makes the Bore detectable as described at Shayol Ghul. The books explicitly state that he is able to warp channeling in much more dramatic fashion at the "thinness". And nothing is "closer" to that "thinness" than the patch on his prison. So, if saidar had been a part of the patch, it would have been just as "close" as saidin. And yes, the opposed forces of the True Power and the One Power are at the heart of what the Dark One does, but the True Power is just as opposed to saidar as it is to saidin.

 

Let me add something here ... we don't actually know that much about HOW channeling saidin and saidar makes the channeling better. All of the POVs we have of linked people are inexperienced (except for the one where Graendal and Sammael are linked, with Moridin spying on them, and that POV doesn't comment on this specific issue). The refusal of ALL the most powerful female Aes Sedai says to me that they were VERY concerned that even a mixed weave would be vulnerable to SOMETHING. I don't believe, certainly, that anyone anticipated the nature of the counterstroke, but these women, with long experience at using the Power linked, were not confident that linking would protect either themselves or the weave from the Dark One's retalitation, whatever form it might take. They knew alot more about it than we do, and they were worried. That, combined with what actually happened, is very indicative to me.

 

These are, of course, my own opinions, and I do sometimes present them forcefully. I have to say in my own defense, that I am hardly the only one that presents his/her ideas in a factual tone. I do try to provide substantiation, either through citing sources, or explaining my logic. I apologize if it seems abrasive, that is not my intention.

[Genesis_XVI]

I disagree with Robert's assertion that the One Power won't be responsible for healing the bore. I think the One power will be the very thing that Rand uses to reseal the Dark Ones prison. What else would they use...? A Band-aid?

 

And another thing... just off topic a little, has anyone else wondered why all the people in Randland believe that when the seals break Shaitan will be free? Surely he would be no more free than he was when the Bore was resealed by the great Lews Therin Telamon. Which admittedly means he would have far more power and influence than he(1) currently does, but it falls a fair way short of being free. It's more like he'd be on a longer leash.

 

And re: an earlier post, I think that Herid Fel was killed because he realised that for Rand to properly reseal the Bore back to its original condition, he would have to destroy the current seals and all remnants of LTT attempts (Clear the rubble).

 

-Genesis_XVI

 

(1): is an unfounded gender assumption about Shaitan.