Mazrim Taim turned?

[Achoo]

Robert Jordan himself said Taim wasn't Demamdred, and Demandred didn't recognize Flinn at Shadar Logoth. The identities of the other Forsaken fit better elsewhere.

[mb]

He can't be. He can't be any of the Chosen.

Well, he could be one of the Chosen.  He's just not a false identity for any of the old Chosen.

New Forsaken?  That seems doubtful; we have not seen the Dark One promoting any of the Darkfriend channelers.  The old Forsaken have not either, nor have they asked the Dark One in behalf of the Darkfriend channelers.

 

[seasnake]

Taim is Taim, I believe.  I could envision Taim having been turned by the 13 Aes Sedai (plus accompanying Myrddraal) that are now with the borderlander army.  It could be nice if there was some scene in TGS that had Rand captured by the 13 Aes Sedai and Taim is there and they're talking about what they did to Taim and what they're going to do to Rand, and then Perrin comes in and saves the day.  Perrin mixing with the borderlander army makes a ton of sense given his wife is the Queen's cousin, so its conceivable that Perrin would be there.

 

As far as the Taim/Be'lal theory, just don't see it.

[Charlz Guybon]

Taim is probably the best candidate we have, at present, for the 13/13 turning.  The most likely time would have been after he was sprung by the 13 Black Ajah following his captured at Irinjavar.  If it is the case that he was turned, it may account for the slight difference in mannerism that Bashere noted when Taim presented himself to Rand.

I agree. I'd be surprised if this isn't revealed, I just can't think of another plausible suspect that this could have happened to.

[Charlz Guybon]

He can't be. He can't be any of the Chosen.

Well, he could be one of the Chosen.  He's just not a false identity for any of the old Chosen.

New Forsaken?  That seems doubtful; we have not seen the Dark One promoting any of the Darkfriend channelers.  The old Forsaken have not either, nor have they asked the Dark One in behalf of the Darkfriend channelers.

 

The extra chairs at the last Forsaken meeting that Halima noticed would imply otherwise.

[mb]

He can't be. He can't be any of the Chosen.

Well, he could be one of the Chosen.  He's just not a false identity for any of the old Chosen.

New Forsaken?  That seems doubtful; we have not seen the Dark One promoting any of the Darkfriend channelers.  The old Forsaken have not either, nor have they asked the Dark One in behalf of the Darkfriend channelers.

The extra chairs at the last Forsaken meeting that Halima noticed would imply otherwise.

The empty chairs might also imply an ignorance of certain dead Forsaken.  Or the extra ones were added as a trick.

 

[Tai]

He can't be. He can't be any of the Chosen.

Well, he could be one of the Chosen.  He's just not a false identity for any of the old Chosen.

New Forsaken?  That seems doubtful; we have not seen the Dark One promoting any of the Darkfriend channelers.  The old Forsaken have not either, nor have they asked the Dark One in behalf of the Darkfriend channelers.

The extra chairs at the last Forsaken meeting that Halima noticed would imply otherwise.

The empty chairs might also imply an ignorance of certain dead Forsaken.  Or the extra ones were added as a trick.

 

 

Not a trick, but a reminder of failure. I can't recall, were all of the living FS there? If they were then a reminder makes sense.

 

You're right mb.  Those are both possibilities.

 

So is the promotion of Mazrim Taim.

 

Except that if Taim was promoted, why wouldn't he have been there? We already saw how harsh the DO was on no-show's.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

Except that if Taim was promoted, why wouldn't he have been there? We already saw how harsh the DO was on no-show's.

He might not have been under the same orders as the others, maintaining cover at the Black Tower would likely be considered more important.

[luftstark]

I don't know why we keep discussing Mazrim Taim ... there is no way we can make new assumptions on him. And there is no way we can rule out any we had made in the past.

 

We know:

 

He is not Demandred.

He is a Darkfriend.

 

We don't know:

 

If he was turned by 13AS/13Fades

If he was coached by a Chosen

If he is one of the new Chosen

 

What else? there is not enought evidence to move around any of those assertions. So... that's it.. RAFO =D (and i'm sure we are going to find out most of those).

[thatsnotgood]

Just wondering, why do people keep thinking Perrin will save Rand from the 13 AS with the borderlands?

[zanotam]

Um, I would like to point out that Taim referred to the old Aes Sedai banner as the "Banner of the Light" which was the name in the AoL and so that should prove without a doubt that he has knowledge from that time period. I still think it's suspicious that when Taim first shows up Bashere challenges him and no one ever confirms Taim is who he says he is, it's just taken on a "Who would be crazy enough to say they were Taim? Obviously only Taim would do that, it would be crazy otherwise!" and so I find his identity suspect. The idea of new chosen is interesting,and if new chosen were well, chosen, why would the DO tell the old chosen about the new ones? More games you play the more likely you'll win one.

 

[zanotam]

Um, I would like to point out that Taim referred to the old Aes Sedai banner as the "Banner of the Light" which was the name in the AoL and so that should prove without a doubt that he has knowledge from that time period.

 

Well, thats indicative, but not conclusive, by itself.  Coincidences do happen, and "Banner of Light" is a sort of generic name.

 

 

Combined with his so-called Aiel (followed by a pause that even Rand noted) and no doubt other slip ups are yet to be made, he seems to make them pretty consistently, I'm only counting up to the end of the 6th book and he's made several OBVIOUS ones and his actions seem a little bit too much....I'm nto saying he's forsaken, he's turned or anything, but he has knowledge he shouldn't have.

[thatsnotgood]

I'm pretty sure its mentioned that people were calling it the banner of the light before Taim uses the term.  I mean I could be wrong, but I'm positive there's a passage when RJ is narrating and he's talking about the banner having a new name.

[mb]

He is a Darkfriend.

That seems doubtful to me.  We do not see him report to any of the Forsaken.

Taim seems more of a self-centered guy who wants all the glory than a Darkfriend.

 

If Taim was a Darkfriend, Osangar (Corlan Dashiva) might have revealed to him (Taim) that he (Osangar) was a Forsaken.

Taim might have deduced of Dashiva being a Darkfriend from Rand's command of Dashiva being added to the traitor's list.

 

The "Kill Rand" order in Winter's Heart; Taim did not seem to take orders from either Moridin or Demandred since Demandred seemed to not know of Taim's order and since Moridin put more priority on getting Rand's possessions than on killing Rand.  If Taim was taking orders from any Forsaken at that time, the most probable one would have been Osangar.

 

[zanotam]

I'm pretty sure its mentioned that people were calling it the banner of the light before Taim uses the term.  I mean I could be wrong, but I'm positive there's a passage when RJ is narrating and he's talking about the banner having a new name.

 

Actually, it was mentioned that it was called the banner of light AFTERWARDS, and even if it was, the name wasn't a common one, it would have had to be dug up in some ancient copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a book somewhere by a Brown or someone in one of the great libraries, something Taim should not have had the time to do or want to know. The only reason he wasn't caught was that his slip ups were minor and within the realms of possibility, but that many slipups in what amounts to less than a pittance of pages? He's obviously got a source of information, for all I know he talks to LTT in his head too, but SOMETHING isn't right.  ???

[thatsnotgood]

He's obviously got a source of information, for all I know he talks to LTT in his head too, but SOMETHING isn't right.  ???

 

Man LTT gets around!

[zanotam]

He's obviously got a source of information, for all I know he talks to LTT in his head too, but SOMETHING isn't right.  ???

 

Man LTT gets around!

 

That he does.

 

We do know that Rand has LTT in his head and that other Male Channelers have occasionally heard voices as they went insane, to be fair though, they could hear anyone of the original 100 companions (or at least the ones that initially died/went insane) or perhaps ANY guys voice, assuming said guy channeled Saidin breaking/post-breaking, well maybe, who knows!

[Luckers]

 

You're right mb.  Those are both possibilities.

 

So is the promotion of Mazrim Taim.

 

Except that if Taim was promoted, why wouldn't he have been there? We already saw how harsh the DO was on no-show's.

 

One of the major reasons the Dark One would have promoted Taim was due to the fact that he was being forced to rely on the original Chosen too much. In the Age of Legends he could kill them on a whim, knowing that of the hundreds of thousands of channelers that served him there would be others of equal talent and strength. That is no longer the case, which would not suit the Dark One at all. It was for this reason that Shaidar Haren marked Alviarin rather than work through Mesaana--the reason Shaidar Haren was likely created in the first place.

 

Semirhage says it best when thinking on how the Dark One was moving here around without the others knowing. "If the Great Lord moved her here secretly, might he not be moving Moghedien or Lanfear, or even Asmodean? Might Shaidar Haran not be sent to deliver covert commands to Graendal or Sammael? Or for that matter, to Demandred or Mesaana?"

 

Or Taim?

 

As a reminder that there are things that Moridin knows that the others don't.  As a reminder that they are replaceable, and that they don't necessarily know who will replace them.

 

Or maybe Moridin himself didn't know.

 

He is a Darkfriend.

That seems doubtful to me.  We do not see him report to any of the Forsaken.

Taim seems more of a self-centered guy who wants all the glory than a Darkfriend.

 

If Taim was a Darkfriend, Osangar (Corlan Dashiva) might have revealed to him (Taim) that he (Osangar) was a Forsaken.

Taim might have deduced of Dashiva being a Darkfriend from Rand's command of Dashiva being added to the traitor's list.

 

The "Kill Rand" order in Winter's Heart; Taim did not seem to take orders from either Moridin or Demandred since Demandred seemed to not know of Taim's order and since Moridin put more priority on getting Rand's possessions than on killing Rand.  If Taim was taking orders from any Forsaken at that time, the most probable one would have been Osangar.

 

 

It indeed seems very likely that he was reporting to one of the Forsaken--he certainly spent enough time near them to pick up on their mannerisms.

 

As for him being aware of Osan'gar--perhaps. Earlier on i would say no, he is too genuinely irritated at Rand for choosing him, and Taim is not good at hiding his irritation. Later--maybe he learnt of him. Yet he does seem genuinely surprised to learn Osan'gar took part in the attack.

 

As for your point about their dual commands--those commands were issued to the shadow as a whole. It would seem that Demandred and Taim had no interaction, but Taim and any of others? Even Moridin? No.

[rdarbius]

I really like this theory.  Robert Jordan rarely (if ever) throws something in randomly.  The more I read, the more I realize that almost everything is relevant in his work.  He made such a big deal out the thirteen that it must come back sometime.  This would be a perfect way to bring it back.  Nice thinking.

[zanotam]

I really like this theory.  Robert Jordan rarely (if ever) throws something in randomly.  The more I read, the more I realize that almost everything is relevant in his work.  He made such a big deal out the thirteen that it must come back sometime.  This would be a perfect way to bring it back.  Nice thinking.

 

Finally! Someone else who thinks that there aren't just random mess ups and oddities. Personally, I think the real question is not whether Mazrim Taim turned, but which direction he was initially facing and to what degree did he turn. Was he facing north and then turned to the West, was he facing stage right and now is facing stage left? These are important details that need to be decided upon!

[Titan Orion]

If Taim was a Darkfriend, Osangar (Corlan Dashiva) might have revealed to him (Taim) that he (Osangar) was a Forsaken

 

Look at the scene in Crown of Swords when Taim is insisting that Rand has a full Ashaman with him. Rand tries declining, Taim pushes him, and then Rand picks one without looking-Dashiva. And when Rand picked Dashiva, Taim tried to convince Rand to take one of the other Darkfriend Ashaman like Rochaid instead.

 

Taim didnt want Dashiva to go with Rand, because Taim knew who he was.

[Builder]

Oh man it smells like sour Taim in this thread!

 

Look at the scene in Crown of Swords when Taim is insisting that Rand has a full Ashaman with him. Rand tries declining, Taim pushes him, and then Rand picks one without looking-Dashiva. And when Rand picked Dashiva, Taim tried to convince Rand to take one of the other Darkfriend Ashaman like Rochaid instead.

 

Taim didnt want Dashiva to go with Rand, because Taim knew who he was.

 

Sounds like a sound argument.

[mb]

If Taim was a Darkfriend, Osangar (Corlan Dashiva) might have revealed to him (Taim) that he (Osangar) was a Forsaken

Look at the scene in Crown of Swords when Taim is insisting that Rand has a full Ashaman with him. Rand tries declining, Taim pushes him, and then Rand picks one without looking-Dashiva. And when Rand picked Dashiva, Taim tried to convince Rand to take one of the other Darkfriend Ashaman like Rochaid instead.

Taim didnt want Dashiva to go with Rand, because Taim knew who he was.

Yet when Rand requested that Dashiva be added to the list of deserters, Taim was surprised.

Then again, both these scenes could point either way.

 

[thatsnotgood]

If Taim was a Darkfriend, Osangar (Corlan Dashiva) might have revealed to him (Taim) that he (Osangar) was a Forsaken

Look at the scene in Crown of Swords when Taim is insisting that Rand has a full Ashaman with him. Rand tries declining, Taim pushes him, and then Rand picks one without looking-Dashiva. And when Rand picked Dashiva, Taim tried to convince Rand to take one of the other Darkfriend Ashaman like Rochaid instead.

Taim didnt want Dashiva to go with Rand, because Taim knew who he was.

Yet when Rand requested that Dashiva be added to the list of deserters, Taim was surprised.

Then again, both these scenes could point either way.

 

 

* spoiler * think the last page of KoD proves he's a DF - AS the old saying goes.. .  But why would a forsaken be placed under Taim?

[thatsnotgood]

But why would a forsaken be placed under Taim?

 

To get himself an undercover identity as an Asha'man?

 

why?