Mazrim Taim turned?

[thatsnotgood]

I don't know if this has been discussed or not, I didn't see anything that leads me to believe it has, but... In the first few books up to The Dragon Reborn Jordan keeps bringing up that 13 fades can turn any woman that can channel to the Dark One.  I don't think its a huge leap to believe that the same would hold true for any male that can channel as well, though I don't remember it ever being mentioned.  We do know for a fact that the Black Ajah had a plot to set Taim loose on the world, disguised as Rand Al'Thor.  But why would Taim go along with any plans from Dark Friends? Not like Taim would actually gain any real power going around destroying everything with the one power in Rand's name. Yah it gets him free of being genteled but wouldn't he just run away once he's free, no real point for him to stick around, imo?  But if the Black Ajah used fades to turn Taim. . .  It really seems to me that Robert Jordan, RIP, was never an author to forget about details. For him to think of the idea of Fades forcing someone to the Dark One, just so Egwene's test for Accepted would be more interesting seems very unlike RJ to me.  Because basically that's what the idea comes to because it never really gets used again. 

[Guest dragonsworn1991]

I think personally that it is used just to add a little mystery, and suspense to the series, and also it is a possible future. I think the ter'angreal for the test of accepted taps into the PSW and showed her what might happen, also thirteen Mydraal were coming to turn egwene Nynaeve, and Elayne, in one of the books, I forget which one. As the fact of Taim, he is a darkfriend out of jealousy, he can never be as good as Rand, so he turns to the shadow.

[Shard]

I agree I like this theory as well, I always hoped that he'd be the one turned. RJ has implied that once turned this way, there was very little chance of turning them back.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but the 13/13 trick doesn't like....Make you decide to just go and kill people and commit random acts of evil right? It's more like it takes the evil or immoral desires and tendencies that everyone has, the desire for power and fame and money etc. that most typically good people overcome, and cause them to become prevalent. It doesn't make you a mindless zombie who worships the DO, it's just like turning you into your Doppleganger or Evil Twin or Antithesis. Right? Sort of? So for Taim to have been subject to it would have to mean that at one time he was a good person right? I'm more inclined to believe that he became a DF willingly with no need for the 13/13 trick. 

[Shard]

It's kinda like making an evil mirror version of yourself. Which is why RJ says that it would be difficult to turn them back because the person wouldn't see anything wrong with what they were or any need to turn back.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Well I don't think it's quite that they wouldn't think they were doing anything wrong so much as they know they are but wouldn't care that they were.

[Shard]

Sorry I meant wrong as in they see nothing wrong with their choices. They don't think it's weird and should stop or anything like that. I do admit that I have been curious about seeing such a transformation in one of the characters since RJ has defined this for us.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Who knows, maybe he was saving any kind of detailed description for the last book. It might turn out to somehow be much more important than anyone thinks.

[albino_dog]

Perhaps converting him back will be one of the nine impossible things that Rand will do.

[thatsnotgood]

I always thought it was sort of like how the forsaken let a peice of the dark one cling on to them.  Because Lewis Therin reconized Taim for a dark friend right away, he goes crazy every time he's around.  And Fain can tell dark friends apart as well.  So I always thought of it as more like the 13/13 force the person to let a piece of the dark one cling to them... 

[Titan Orion]

How do we know Lews Therin can tell who is a Darkfriend? I am currently rereading and at the moment Lews Therin rants around most of the Ashaman, just Taim and Dashiva and the rest of the Darkfriend Ashaman like Rochaid, Torvil and Kisman. He doesnt rant and rave when he sees Moridins face if I remember correctly.

 

I personally donr believe Taim was forced to the Shadow. He is the best non-Forsaken male Darkfriend channeler in my oppinion; I think if he was forced to the Shadow, as opposed to going over willingly for his own benefit, would take away from his coolness. I hope we learn more about Taims background although I doubt we will.

[Weathermonger]

I,m not sure about Taim being turned. When I read the sections where Rand and Taim are together, I always thought that in Lews Therin's rants that there seemed to some kind of feeling of familiarity that Lews Therin was showing towards him. Because of this I always thought that Taim could have been one of the male Forsaken in disguise. But then again Lews Therin does rant and rave around some of the other Ashaman, so maybe I interpreted it wrongly.

[chemteach1977]

If the black ajah know about turning someone with 13 myrdraal, why are they so set up to find the male adam in Tanchico?  Why not just shield Rand and then turn him?

[Ashaman Kovan]

If the black ajah know about turning someone with 13 myrdraal, why are they so set up to find the male adam in Tanchico?  Why not just shield Rand and then turn him?

 

Probably because he's The Dragon Reborn, the strongest male Channeler (Basically) and the strongest Ta'Veren since Hawwking. I don't think they're quite that overconfident. Not without something they know, or think they know is foolproof. All the Chosen who have confronted him directly didn't fare too well either.

[thatsnotgood]

The male adam in Tanchico would let the the black sisters directly control Rands channeling, much more appealing than turning Rand to the DO.  I mean wouldn't you rather control someone that powerful as opposed to creating another forsaken/ chosen to run around giving you orders?  Maybe with him Rand collared they can challenge the forsaken, or at least be on par with them. Much more appealing.

 

And about Lewis Therin being able to tell a Dark friend.  Maybe its sort of like what Rand saw when he battles Ishmael, the black thing attached to him.  And then later he seas it around Asmodean.   Again pointing this out that Fain can tell the difference so they must be marked in some way.  

 

 

[mb]

13 fades can turn any woman that can channel to the Dark One.

It is actually 13 Dreadlords channeling through 13 myrddraal that forces someone to the Shadow; the 13 myrddraal I take do nothing else but stay at the location.  And it is any channeler, not just female ones.

 

It was done on Taim?  That is a possibility, though we could not be certain at this time on whether it happened or not.

 

[Achoo]

Taim being turned makes a lot of sense. He seemed to become more evil suddenly at one point, as RAW said, and the 'cirlce of evil' is much too cool to leave as it is.  I'm still open to the idea that he is a normal Darkfriend. He did claim to be the Dragon Reborn, either in a bid for power or because he actually believed he was. Either way shows an incredible egocentricity, a character flaw the Dark One could use to pull him to the Shadow.

[thatsnotgood]

Just because Taim claimed to be the Dragon Reborn doesn't really mean he's evil though.  Look at Logain.  And maybe it was something like Ta'veren, maybe he didn't have any intention of proclaiming himself but he was forced into it. Before Rand proclaimed himself Moraine talks about the pattern creating a bunch of false dragons til the real Dragon announces himself.

[Achoo]

I didn't mean to imply that he was working for the Shadow when he first claimed to be the Dragon. I merely wished to illustrate the lust for power within him or the arrogance within him. These are both serious character flaws which the Dark One could exploit to persuade Taim to join him. We know he uses power-hungry or arrogant people as Darkfriends; almost every passage written from a Darkfriend's view mentions how much they desire their rewards, be they power, immortality or anything else. Of course, this argument can go both ways if the turning works by bringing out the worse in its victim. I put my cautious support behind this theory, but I still feel Taim could be just a regular ol' Darkfriend.

[Titan Orion]

Well, in the 13/13 turning scenario, he isn't evil until after he was captured by the Aes Sedai at Irinjavar, after Rand declared himself.  So, he wasn't "evil", or at least, he wasn't working for the Shadow, when he proclaimed himself as the Dragon Reborn.

 

How can we be sure about Taim before we ever met him? How do we know he suddenly became evil? My thought is that Ishamael had him proclaim himself.

[Builder]

You know guys. Every time I read this thread title I think of some guy that have gone over the best before date  :D

[zanotam]

Several things against Taim so far and I'm at the end of LoC. The very first thing should have been obvious to all of us, when 'Taim' first arrives, Lord Bashere does not recognize him and he waves it away with something to the effect of "I shaved my beard", but Bashere still should have recognized him you'd think. There is of course, when he refers to the so-called Aiel, but the KEY there is that he stops after saying that, and Rand even notices that and notes it as odd, but he explains it away. Taim then refers to the Dragon Banner as the "Banner of Light." I'm hardly accusing him of being a forsaken, but he does have odd knowledge. To add to those btw, we know he could test people for use of Saidin, he at least SEEMED to know a lot, he claimed to have survived quite some time channeling. I definitely agree he appears to have turned to the shadow, but I'm not willing to say he started in the shadow, that he is a Forsaken, nor that he is even evil. Things are rarely what they seem in Randland.

[Titan Orion]

There are a multitude of things about Taim that point towards his allegiance, but none about his identity. Anyone can say so-called Aiel, people sometimes do look very different after shaving, later on when Rand warns Taim about moving Aes Sedai and Taim says something like "so if Demandred makes a move, I get the blame?" not exact wording but none of what Taim does makes his identity-as in, whether he is himself or anyone in disguise-any clearer, because we havent seen him before he was sent to join Rand.

 

My thoughts are that RJ put the Forsaken mannerisms in him to take the readers eye off Dashiva.

 

Taim had better NOT be Moridin. He is too cool-well, both are-and aside from that I would expect Ishamael to be at least a little bit more subtle than Taim is

[thatsnotgood]

Taim obviously not Isahmael / moridin because in winters hearts one of the renegade asha'man, the one that gets stabbed by fain is thinking about what his assignment to kill Rand are.  He talks about how Taim tells him to kill Rand, then how Demandred tells him to kill Rand.  Then he talks about how Moridin tells him to kill Rand if its necessary but bring him Rands possessions. 

[Mr Ares]

There are a multitude of things about Taim that point towards his allegiance, but none about his identity.

There are many, and they all point towards his identity being Mazrim Taim. Taim is Taim is Taim.

Taim had better NOT be Moridin.

He can't be. He can't be any of the Chosen.