It seems to me...

[Charlz Guybon]

 

 

While the Compact of the Ten Nations was created eight hundred years prior to the Trolloc Wars, they were still unprepared.

 

Quote

The wars began with a series of increasingly heavy raids by Shadowspawn into the then-Borderlands of Jaramide and Aramaelle. However, the intensity of the attacks only became clear when the city of Barsine in Jaramide was destroyed. At this point the Aes Sedai and the Ten Nations rallied to face the threat, but were unable to contain it. The Trolloc armies struck deep into the Westlands, destroying the great Ogier-built city of Mafal Dadaranelle in Aramaelle amongst many other fortresses and settlements.

 

Aramaelle was eventually overrun and completely destroyed, although Jaramide managed to survive. With Aramelle gone, the Shadowspawn were able to sweep into kingdoms further south such as Aridhol and Coremanda, and around this time may have launched the first of four major assaults on Tar Valon.

 

The mid-war period saw the most desperate fighting, as humanity was pushed back on almost every front and the Shadow advanced. During this period the human armies began to develop new tactics which favoured encircling and destroying Trolloc forces they had split off from the main armies, since pitched field battles against superior numbers of Trollocs usually led to defeat unless large numbers of Aes Sedai were present.

 

Again you are describing a war, not an assault on an unprepared foe. The Shadow destroyed the bulwark of human defence--which sat in place specifically to deal with this attack.

 

The borderlanders did not go 'oh my, what is going on?'. They were defeated, but that is not being unprepared.

 

I totally agree. The Westlands were as prepared as they could possibly be. They were simply flat out beaten. What else would you have them do?

[Muad Cheade]

Yes, the Light was prepared, yet they weren't prepared for the monstrous Shadowspawn. How could they? They were simply "ready" for a "human rebellion," not a decade of warfare against mindless, vicious beasts.

 

In the Trolloc Wars, the two nations bordering the Blight thought nothing of the increasingly large trolloc raids. Then suddenly they were overrun by hordes of them. A poor analogy would be a border war that continues for years until the "good side" realizes the enemy has a nuclear arsenal at its disposal and it's too late for containment.

 

As for the manor attack in KoD, you must remember that the majority of the channelers were Asha'man who were made to be nothing but living weapons. Aes Sedai's are less proficient at warfare as their male counterparts (except for the Green Ajah). Also, as Charlz Guybon stated, there were no dreadlords opposing them.

 

I agree sometimes, RAW, however, they're the only examples of prolonged fighting against the Shadow.

[Muad Cheade]

I agree sometimes, RAW, however, they're the only examples of prolonged fighting against the Shadow.

 

That is just my point.  Tarmon Gai'don will not be a prolonged fight.  It will be a very intense, but relatively short war.

 

The strategic difference between Tarmon Gai'don and the Trolloc Wars is significant, and since strategy determines tactics, comparisons between the two are more like hammers and oranges than apples and oranges.

 

When I said "prolonged fighting," I was referencing warfare that didn't consist of borderland raids by the Shadow. The War of Power, the Trolloc Wars, and Tarmon Gai'don are the only examples of that we have.

 

While the wars are different, the tactic's are still relevant and work. For example, Mat is changing the Band to fit into the tactical of the Trolloc Wars. This is why he's trying to increase the ratio of pikes to bows: The pikes attack the Trolloc's flanks preventing the army from being encircled.

 

Quick question: Did anyone else notice that in Mat's last battle in KoD, the Band essentially used the square formation? That's the same formation Napoleon used and with crossbows that can pump out 9 quarrels a minute, it'd be pretty undefeatable.

[mb]

The Dark One himself is the wild card here.  He can play with reality itself.  Big potential for damage.

 

The other wild card is Rand al'Thor.  If he starts truly losing it, the Light could be in real trouble too, and I think that is more and more of a possibility.

A third wild card could probably be those who are for neither side.  Because those people would do deliberate damage on both sides.

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Aaaaaahhh.  Padan Fain.

 

Both the DO and Rand can be predicted ( to some slight extent ), but Fain...

[Muad Cheade]

 

While that may be your intended definition, I still maintain that the fundamental differences between a 3 to 5 year war and a 300 to 350 year series of wars are more than significant enough to washout any comparison.  Yes, some things will be similar, because there are root similarities in any form of armed conflict.  But in determining a strategy, thinking of Tarmon Gai'don like the Trolloc Wars would be a huge mistake.

 

There are key differences in the three wars. They all occur(ed) over a period of three thousand years with decades in between them. Yes. You are absolutely right about that. However, in length Tarmon Gai'don is similar with the War of Power (10 years). We don't have as much knowledge of that war but we do have a picture of the overall grand strategy. That is, the leaders' plans over the entire war which we can use because they planned a war that was close to the same length of "ours."

 

The same can't be done with the Trolloc Wars and Tarmon Gai'don because of the centuries the Trolloc Wars lasted as you noted. We aren't given that clear a picture of the leadership or grand strategy. however, we are given knowledge of the tactics and how they were used against Shadowspwan which will be helpful during Tarmon Gai'don

 

Some of the specific tactics will still work.  But determining which will and won't should not be based on what happened in the Trolloc Wars.  Mat is redesigning his army to be flexible.  He's getting them more ready for any war, not fighting the Trolloc Wars again.

 

If the tactics of the Trolloc Wars that helped turn the tide of that war worked very well, they will work again "now." The conditions it succeeded in still remain. The Band of the Red Hand in its original form was ready for convential warfare. If you want an example of a flexible army, that would be Gareth Bryne's army for the Salidar Aes Sedai. For example, his cavalry is comprised of Shienaran-style heavy cavalry, mounted archers, ligh cavalry and lancers.

 

Mat and the Band's focus on returning to wafare of the Trolloc Wars can be seen by not only the name but also his increase in the ratio of bowmen to pikes. The BWB talks about the fact that Mat has said that he wants to return to the standard of the original Band when bowmen made up more than half of all the infantry which was a necessity during The Trolloc Wars, where the humans would frequently find themselves outnumbered, and would need to strike rapidly at the flanks of an army. That is also reason to think that the tactics from the Trolloc Wars are still effective.

[Muad Cheade]

Yeah. I understand what you are saying. I was thinking about Mat's crossbows in another post and I remembered that he said he's never heard of anything like it "ever," so I think that the tactics might actually change from those of the Trolloc Wars.