I dont like Matrim Cauthon

[Mr Ares]

Didn't he kill Melsidrna, you know the lady that was his aiel lover and a darkfriend. Or did someone else did.

He did kill Melindhra, but that was before his vow never to kill another woman, even if it's his life (after ordering Renna's death in CoT). In KoD he nearly gets skewered after refusing to kill a Darkfriend woman who was trying to kill him.

 

Also, his refusal to accept responsibility, as evidenced by his continuing attempts to flee from his duty, is not exactly lovable.

He hasn't tried to flee from his duty as he saw it, ever. Even Egwene and Nynaeve acknowledged that--if he saw something as his responsibility or swore an oath, nothing would stop him from it.

He just refuses to admit things are his responsibility, in order to run away.

 

He tried to flee from Rand and be normal, but that's kind of understandable.

Understandable is not the same as admirable. You might be able to see why he did it, but running away when the world needs you is not the most likeable trait ever.

Mat? Mat is a guy from the Two Rivers who enjoyed stuff, but he wasn't anyone special.

But that's the thing, isn't it, he was someone special - a ta'veren, caught up in this whole thing. Him refusing to admit that is the problem.

Moiraine kept telling him he was ta'veren and wanted to manipulate him, but he didn't sign up for any of this.

Neither did Rand, neither did Perrin, neither did Lan. Duty is heavier than a mountain, and you only get to put that mountain down when you're dead.

 

Once he started realizing that he did have to do this, acknowledged his duty (transition is around The Fires of Heaven/Lord of Chaos), he faced it right sharp.

Yes, he did eventually come around to his duty, after the others. Took him long enough, didn't it?

 

You can say he was trying to 'flee from his duty' before book 5 or so, but hey. He doesn't have our omniscient viewpoint. WE knew he was really important.

He should have known he was. He was told so. He fled from his duty, till he could flee no more.

 

Also, his refusal to accept responsibility, as evidenced by his continuing attempts to flee from his duty, is not exactly lovable.

Thats what I like about Matt though. He grumbles about what hes doing, saying he should quit or leave, but still he doesnt. I like how he hates being a Lord yet he still acts like one, and I like the fact that when Mat says "I am no bloody Lord!" at that precise time you can bet your left-and right, if you have one-testicle that he is, in fact, being a Lord.

Book one he was dragged along with the others, book 2 he had a vested interest in going along to recover the dagger, book three he was given the job of taking a message to Morgase, and followed that up by trying to rescue his friends, he went to Rhuidean because he was told if he didn't he would die, then he was following Rand because otherwise he would be off alone in the Aiel Waste. When he returns to the Wetlands, he does try to leave, but is faced with a choice between saving people who are essentially strangers, or running away. It is then that he begins accepting his destiny, he decides to save them at the expense of his escape, and finds the kernel of what will become the Band forming around him. It is around this time that he stops running from fate, and his motives become less selfish, that he develops a real nobility. Prior to that, the best thing he did was trying to save Nynaeve and Egwene. A childhood friend and the Wisdom. People who mean something to him. Time spent running from his destiny, if not his friends.

[CUBAREY]

Neither did Rand, neither did Perrin, neither did Lan. Duty is heavier than a mountain, and you only get to put that mountain down when you're dead.

 

One small disagreement. Lan actually did sign up for the ride by accepting Moirraine's offer to become her Wardor. Moreover, by doing so he was running away from his destiny as the uncrowned king of Melkier.

[Perrin 187]

Neither did Rand, neither did Perrin, neither did Lan. Duty is heavier than a mountain, and you only get to put that mountain down when you're dead.

 

One small disagreement. Lan actually did sign up for the ride by accepting Moirraine's offer to become her Wardor. Moreover, by doing so he was running away from his destiny as the uncrowned king of Melkier.

But one could argue, by helping Moraine find the dragon Lan was exacting revenge on the shadow for destroying his country.

[mb]

In Mat's current characteristics, his gambling would be the only thing to dislike him over.

In the beginning of the series, his doing pranks would be another thing to dislike him over.

 

Other than those, Mat seems a nice guy.

There are other reasons to dislike him.

You mean his behavior towards women? Most of the time he seems to treat them kindly.His apparent not caring who gets hurt? That could be a reason; though he seems to be a person who does his duty whether he is aware or not.

 

That is all I could think of at this time.

How about his suicidal refusal to kill a woman, even at the expense of his own life? That sort of idiocy is rarely an endearing trait. Also, his refusal to accept responsibility, as evidenced by his continuing attempts to flee from his duty, is not exactly lovable.

Ok.

Mat refusing to kill a woman; Mat has not really had a reason to after he killed Melindhra.  Rand also dislikes killing women.

Mat refusing to accept responsibility, Mat attempting to flee from his duty; I do not see either.  Mat has made promises to various people and has for the most part fulfilled those promises.

 

[Dark Justice]

well.. Fleing from his responsabilities, was what brought him where he is. It is what the pattern had decided for him. If Mat had not tried to run, he would not have been able to do what he has done later on..

[CUBAREY]

Neither did Rand, neither did Perrin, neither did Lan. Duty is heavier than a mountain, and you only get to put that mountain down when you're dead.

 

One small disagreement. Lan actually did sign up for the ride by accepting Moirraine's offer to become her Wardor. Moreover, by doing so he was running away from his destiny as the uncrowned king of Melkier.

But one could argue, by helping Moraine find the dragon Lan was exacting revenge on the shadow for destroying his country.

 

I'm not saying that Lan was being a coward in foresaking his birthright I am only saying that he disliked having men died following a hopeless cause and thus abandoned the role that his parents and destiny had choosen for him. Interestingly, his earlier failure now allows him to forefill the same role during the last battle.

[Perrin 187]

Neither did Rand, neither did Perrin, neither did Lan. Duty is heavier than a mountain, and you only get to put that mountain down when you're dead.

 

One small disagreement. Lan actually did sign up for the ride by accepting Moirraine's offer to become her Wardor. Moreover, by doing so he was running away from his destiny as the uncrowned king of Melkier.

But one could argue, by helping Moraine find the dragon Lan was exacting revenge on the shadow for destroying his country.

 

I'm not saying that Lan was being a coward in foresaking his birthright I am only saying that he disliked having men died following a hopeless cause and thus abandoned the role that his parents and destiny had choosen for him. Interestingly, his earlier failure now allows him to forefill the same role during the last battle.

Hate to change the topic but I wonder if anyone dislikes Lan, and why?

[Mr Ares]

Neither did Rand, neither did Perrin, neither did Lan. Duty is heavier than a mountain, and you only get to put that mountain down when you're dead.

 

One small disagreement. Lan actually did sign up for the ride by accepting Moirraine's offer to become her Wardor. Moreover, by doing so he was running away from his destiny as the uncrowned king of Melkier.

One small disagreement - he was already a part of the war before he joined with Moiraine. It has been with him since his birth. Avenging what cannot be defended (Malkier) is part of his duty. Moiraine didn't take him from his destiny, she just tried to convince him that they were fighting the same war, and that he would do more good at her side.

 

In Mat's current characteristics, his gambling would be the only thing to dislike him over.

In the beginning of the series, his doing pranks would be another thing to dislike him over.

 

Other than those, Mat seems a nice guy.

There are other reasons to dislike him.

You mean his behavior towards women? Most of the time he seems to treat them kindly.His apparent not caring who gets hurt? That could be a reason; though he seems to be a person who does his duty whether he is aware or not.

 

That is all I could think of at this time.

How about his suicidal refusal to kill a woman, even at the expense of his own life? That sort of idiocy is rarely an endearing trait. Also, his refusal to accept responsibility, as evidenced by his continuing attempts to flee from his duty, is not exactly lovable.

Ok. Mat refusing to kill a woman; Mat has not really had a reason to after he killed Melindhra. Rand also dislikes killing women.

Mat refusing to accept responsibility, Mat attempting to flee from his duty; I do not see either. Mat has made promises to various people and has for the most part fulfilled those promises.

Reading the thread helps. He refuses to kill a Darkfriend in KoD, and she nearly kills him because of it. The fact that Rand does it as well does not make it any more endearing - indeed, some have expressed a dislike of Rand on those grounds. As for Mat running away from his responsibilities, he was the last of the three boys to accept thart he was ta'veren, that he had a duty, that he couldn't just gamble, drink and spend time with girls. Fulfilling promises? The fate of the world was on his shoulders, and he tried to run away. Of course people can dislike Mat over such a thing.

 

well.. Fleing from his responsabilities, was what brought him where he is. It is what the pattern had decided for him. If Mat had not tried to run, he would not have been able to do what he has done later on..

He didn't know that. He put himself before his duty.

[Silmarien]

I also love the gambling, prankster side of Mat.  I mean, if he were a real person I would hate that he's a prankster, because pranks in real life annoy me, I have to admit.  I go crazy on Aprils Fool's Day, and not in a happy way :P  But it makes him such a fun character.  I've heard some people say they didn't like Mat until the third book or so, because of his being such a prankster in the first couple of books, but I loved him from the start, because he was always causing mischief.

 

And again, in real life I'd probably feel more negatively to his gambling, but as a character, it's something I love about him.  I guess because it's not just the gambling, but his whole "taking chances" outlook on life.  And besides, he usually wins, so it's not really a problem for him ;D

 

And the scene where he spanks Joline is priceless.

 

I should probably be posting this in the thread for what's great about Mat, but... :-\

 

I'm absolutely agree with you!

I don't know if in real life i could like a man like him, maybe yes and maybe not.

But as character is fantastic and i've liked him from the start too 'cos he was so funny and always causing mischief.

I think i could die for his grin if he was real  ::)

[mb]

As for Mat running away from his responsibilities, he was the last of the three boys to accept thart he was ta'veren, that he had a duty, that he couldn't just gamble, drink and spend time with girls.

Being the last to accept that he was taveren, I do not see that as refusing to accept responsibility.  Refusing to accept responsibility would to me be deliberately not doing what was required, something I have not seen Mat do.  When someone gives him a task, he does it without complaining; that does not sound like a person that would try to flee from duty.

 

[Xar]

Matt is simply the best and most enjoyble character in WOT...

[Silmarien]

As for Mat running away from his responsibilities, he was the last of the three boys to accept thart he was ta'veren, that he had a duty, that he couldn't just gamble, drink and spend time with girls.

Being the last to accept that he was taveren, I do not see that as refusing to accept responsibility.  Refusing to accept responsibility would to me be deliberately not doing what was required, something I have not seen Mat do.  When someone gives him a task, he does it without complaining; that does not sound like a person that would try to flee from duty.

 

 

I think the same, he said he didn't want to be a hero but he would have done what was necessary to do and this is not flee from duty, on the contrary accept it 'cos there's nothing else to do.

I like Mat 'cos he's able to consider the things from all the point of view and take from life (even when there are problems) the good side of it.

I think that's a sign of responsibility.

[Mr Ares]

As for Mat running away from his responsibilities, he was the last of the three boys to accept that he was ta'veren, that he had a duty, that he couldn't just gamble, drink and spend time with girls.

Being the last to accept that he was taveren, I do not see that as refusing to accept responsibility. Refusing to accept responsibility would to me be deliberately not doing what was required, something I have not seen Mat do. When someone gives him a task, he does it without complaining; that does not sound like a person that would try to flee from duty.

Mat was necessary to save the world. He tried to run off and leave. In other words, trying to run away from what was required.

 

he would have done what was necessary to do and this is not flee from duty.

He did try to flee.

[Silmarien]

As for Mat running away from his responsibilities, he was the last of the three boys to accept that he was ta'veren, that he had a duty, that he couldn't just gamble, drink and spend time with girls.

Being the last to accept that he was taveren, I do not see that as refusing to accept responsibility. Refusing to accept responsibility would to me be deliberately not doing what was required, something I have not seen Mat do. When someone gives him a task, he does it without complaining; that does not sound like a person that would try to flee from duty.

Mat was necessary to save the world. He tried to run off and leave. In other words, trying to run away from what was required.

 

he would have done what was necessary to do and this is not flee from duty.

He did try to flee.

 

Well, but at last he accepted his role!

Also the others didn't want to accept the role.

Rand denied to himself what was the truth 'cos he was scared but he himself didn't want to accept the reality.

But this doesn't diminished the value of Rand, that's a great character too.

 

Anyway, for me Mat is the best anyway  ;D

[Mr Ares]

Well, but at last he accepted his role! Also the others didn't want to accept the role.

Yes, May eventually accepted his respnsibility, and the others took some time to come around to it as well, but Mat was still the last to acknowledge his duty.

[Silmarien]

Well, but at last he accepted his role! Also the others didn't want to accept the role.

Yes, May eventually accepted his respnsibility, and the others took some time to come around to it as well, but Mat was still the last to acknowledge his duty.

 

Well, i suppose this would be an endless discussion  :D :D :D

 

I like him anyway, don't care when or how he took "his role"  ;D

For me he has a great vision of life. He could be able to die with a smile on his face. He always jokes and gives the impression he's not a serious guy but that's no true. Just because someone smiles doesn't mean this person don't take things seriously, i'm talking in real life too.

Everyone has his way to face the problems and when someone is able to consider things with a smile or joking i think it's a great characteristic.

Maybe it's just 'cos he reminds me, i mean, i have many problems and i'm very depressed sometimes 'cos things not going in the good way but i always force myself to face things without vent too much and without the desperation takes control of me 'cos this doesn't change things. Vent and be desperate don't solve the problems, on the contrary, this gives you much suffering and doesn't help. It's not easy of course, i can't do always easily but i try and try and force myself to have this behave and i can say it works.

U can't change problems of course but u can live them with the heart less heavy and that's helps a lot!

I think i'm learning a lot from Mat about this way to see life.

He reminds me a bit, only a bit see, Sawyer of Lost: he could seem a tough guy but inside he's not.

And as Thom says "he wants to be more bad than he is"!!!That's true  ;)

 

P.S This doesn't mean i don't appreciate the other (Rand and Perrin), on the contrary, i love all of them in different ways 'cos everyone has his characteristics that define them in a special way.

But this is not the right topic for talking about them!

 

[Mr Ares]

Well, i suppose this would be an endless discussion  :D :D :D

Welcome to the board! Of course, you could end it by admitting that even if you do like Mat this is still a perfectly good reason to dislike him.

[del821]

Meh! Mat is only fooling you with his run away attitude in the beggining, hell he does even fool himself so don't feel bad. Rand knows early doors that mat has his back.

 

Rudhein, the rings ter angreal. dont come after me mat it will mean your death.

 

Mat. no chance i'm off, thinks i'm in there, half an hour then i'll go get him. Turns out he met death a different way but still.

 

Rand. I know you are. Smirks, and that smirk says he has my back no matter the whining.

[Silmarien]

Well, i suppose this would be an endless discussion  :D :D :D

Welcome to the board! Of course, you could end it by admitting that even if you do like Mat this is still a perfectly good reason to dislike him.

 

LOL i like these discussions  :D

 

 

Del821 i don't understand if u like Mat or not, i understood half of the words u said sorry...sometimes my English abandons me  :D

[del821]

 

Silmarien i apologize. don't worry your english is far better than my italian, and i sometimes struggle with english myself ( i'm scottish ).

 

Yes i do like mat he is my favorite person in the books.

 

My point is that Mat is trying to talk himself out of being a hero or noble or a lord but its all an act. Even before his rise to nobility, that people on here have pointed out, by saving what would become the band he was doing selfless heroics.

 

In Rhudean at the ter angreal rings when Rand tells him not to follow him because it could mean Mat's death, Mat would have gone in after Rand and Rand knows it.

 

In fact even earlier when they retreived the horn and dagger Rand says he is going back for Egwene and tells Mat he needs to go get healed or the dagger will kill him. Mat goes anyway although it could mean his death, from the dagger or the Seanchan.

 

So what, he moans about the situation but he does it anyway, like i said its all an act, when its back's to the wall time Mat will back his freinds.

 

Meh! if the Dark one was hunting me there would be tears never mind moaning.

[Silmarien]

 

Silmarien i apologize. don't worry your english is far better than my italian, and i sometimes struggle with english myself ( i'm scottish ).

 

Yes i do like mat he is my favorite person in the books.

 

My point is that Mat is trying to talk himself out of being a hero or noble or a lord but its all an act. Even before his rise to nobility, that people on here have pointed out, by saving what would become the band he was doing selfless heroics.

 

In Rhudean at the ter angreal rings when Rand tells him not to follow him because it could mean Mat's death, Mat would have gone in after Rand and Rand knows it.

 

In fact even earlier when they retreived the horn and dagger Rand says he is going back for Egwene and tells Mat he needs to go get healed or the dagger will kill him. Mat goes anyway although it could mean his death, from the dagger or the Seanchan.

 

So what, he moans about the situation but he does it anyway, like i said its all an act, when its back's to the wall time Mat will back his freinds.

 

Meh! if the Dark one was hunting me there would be tears never mind moaning.

 

Ok now i understand what u'have said  ;)

First i didn't understand 'cos i haven't been in the Rhudean point yet, actually i'm reading the 4th *sob* but i know all how characters evolve so don't worry!

 

Anyway, yes it's exactly what i think, he doesn't want to be an hero and wanna flee but then he stays with his friends and does the hero no matter what he wanted to do.

 

[Mr Ares]

Meh! Mat is only fooling you with his run away attitude in the beggining, hell he does even fool himself so don't feel bad. Rand knows early doors that mat has his back.

Considering he was actually running away...

 

i struggle with english myself ( i'm scottish ).

It's quite common in the Scots.

when its back's to the wall time Mat will back his freinds.

And if by that point it is too late, the world is screwed. Mat might have been willing to save people from imminent dangers, but victory required more than that. He was running away, and decided to help people who needed help, and got dragged in, and it was then that he decided that he couldn't escape his destiny and stopped running at long last. The Mat before that wouldn't have taken the Band to get Egwene, wouldn't have formed the Band. He would act to save someone in danger, but wasn't proactive enough to take the fight to the Shadow. On the other hand, look at Rand trying to get Callandor. Mat went to Tear to save the girls, Rand went there to get the sword.

[mb]

As for Mat running away from his responsibilities, he was the last of the three boys to accept that he was ta'veren, that he had a duty, that he couldn't just gamble, drink and spend time with girls.

Being the last to accept that he was taveren, I do not see that as refusing to accept responsibility. Refusing to accept responsibility would to me be deliberately not doing what was required, something I have not seen Mat do. When someone gives him a task, he does it without complaining; that does not sound like a person that would try to flee from duty.

Mat was necessary to save the world. He tried to run off and leave. In other words, trying to run away from what was required.

It seems you are exaggerating the situation.  Mat saving the world is yet to come (prophecy of choosing between 2 Aes Sedia).

Another thing, it seems that Mat was trying to run from Rand because of Rand's channeling; not from what was required. And to deliberately not do what was required, he would need to know (or be aware of) what was required; he seemed to not know, so it was not a deliberate action.

Also; when he was about to flee, he saw that the soldiers were in trouble and he choose to save them.  He did that without being commanded to.  I have not see him abandon people in danger.

 

[Mr Ares]

It seems you are exaggerating the situation. Mat saving the world is yet to come (prophecy of choosing between 2 Aes Sedia).

Another thing, it seems that Mat was trying to run from Rand because of Rand's channeling; not from what was required. And to deliberately not do what was required, he would need to know (or be aware of) what was required; he seemed to not know, so it was not a deliberate action.

Also; when he was about to flee, he saw that the soldiers were in trouble and he choose to save them. He did that without being commanded to. I have not see him abandon people in danger.

It seems you are not reading the thread. Mat saving the world is yet to come, but Mat wanted to go away and be left in peace. When the end came, it would have been too late. Why he wanted to run away is unimportant, he still wanted to run away. Running from Rand was still running from what was required. He was aware that something was required, and he wanted to go away, drink, gamble, and spend time with women. Not a bad way of spending you time, admittedly, but he was a vital part of saving the world, and he didn't want to face that, claiming he was nothing special, that he wasn't ta'veren, and so on. And it was while he was fleeing, not while he was about to - it was already underway. Yes, he did act to save them, and this sequence is the pivotal one of Mat going from trying to run from his destiny to accepting it, admitting to himself that he can't get away. He did act to save those soldiers, but he was acting in the short term - there was a threat, and he warned them, and then he had men to command, and so on, until he ended up killing Couladin. Look again at TDR. Rand went to Tear to fulfill a Prophecy, to get Callandor, an important step in saving the world. Mat went there to save the girls, because they were in immediate danger.

[Drizzt]

Mat is a pretty confused bloke. You have to remember that less than 4 years ago he was a competely sheltered farmer, who was then possessed by the taint of Sh. Logoth. My only problem with him is that he's really kind of unfair to Rand. Rand didn't choose to be Dragon, he just was. As far as him not rushing into anything all brave like...well, honestly he is not really relying on his own true skills is he? he is completely dependent on the memories and "reflexes" of who he's 'reincarnating' (for lack of a better word). Matrim Cauthon only knows how to use a staff well.