Foreshadowing

[zanotam]

As I am rereading through the books for the umpteenth time I'm really becoming very interested in all the foreshadowing. A lot of the time I already know what event is being foreshadowed, but there are some very interesting things I've found that don't seem to connect to anything, or just as likely, are signs of the extreme level of backstory in the novels. The first thing that really caught my eye was at the end of TEotW, in which Rand hears a mysterious voice that is in ALL CAPS that says something to the effect of IT IS NOT HERE. I WILL LET THE CHOSEN ONE DECIDE. NOT HERE. (don't have a copy with me.). Another interesting note is how the Seanchan talk about how when they first got to their land they fought something like The Armies of Shadow or something, and I noticed the link between Mydrall and Trollocs seems to be a logical basis for the link formed by an a'dam, especially since (unless I'm mistaken) an 'Aes Sedai' working for the Armies of Shadow defected and provided the Seanchan with the a'dam originally (the link between Warders and Aes Sedai seems like a very possible derivative as well). The most interesting thing I've found so far however has been the mention of TWO Sa'angreal more powerful than the great statues, and when Lanfear mentions the great statues, she doesn't call them the GREATEST simply, GREAT.

 

So far those are the only notes of foreshadowing and backstory that are unresolved or that seemed clear at least.

[Roxinos]

The most interesting thing I've found so far however has been the mention of TWO Sa'angreal more powerful than the great statues, and when Lanfear mentions the great statues, she doesn't call them the GREATEST simply, GREAT.

 

Nope.

 

Lanfear said there are three sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor. Two of those are the Choedan Kal. The other one is unknown, and most likely lost.

 

I cannot talk about the other two of your pseudo-questions. The all-caps instance in tEotW is still in debate. And I don't know enough to answer your pseudo-question about the a'dam. Though, it seems most likely that the a'dam was just created using the Warder bond as a template.

[luftstark]

I may be wrong, but i think the A'dam was invented by an AS (prob BA) who "worked" for Hawking before he sent the army across the Sea. It may have something to do with Ishamael (can't recall his disguise name at that time) makin' Hawking awe of AS. It was said that Hawking had a good relation with the White Tower untill he, suddently, decided that the White Tower was his main enemy.

 

It may have been created by Ishamael himself... but i dunno if a man can create a Ter'angreal for women, and if he can, can he create one that involve linking? (since only women can create a link).

[Kaznen]

I may be wrong, but i think the A'dam was invented by an AS (prob BA) who "worked" for Hawking before he sent the army across the Sea. It may have something to do with Ishamael (can't recall his disguise name at that time) makin' Hawking awe of AS. It was said that Hawking had a good relation with the White Tower untill he, suddently, decided that the White Tower was his main enemy.

 

It may have been created by Ishamael himself... but i dunno if a man can create a Ter'angreal for women, and if he can, can he create one that involve linking? (since only women can create a link).

The first a'dam was made by a seanchan AS who was trying to work her way into Luthir Pandreag's favor.  And by inventing the device she could get teh better of her AS rivals.

 

Seanchan didn't have a WT.  So all the AS were like the "evil sorceress" queens in the fairy tales.  And the people lived in fear of them.

[zanotam]

The most interesting thing I've found so far however has been the mention of TWO Sa'angreal more powerful than the great statues, and when Lanfear mentions the great statues, she doesn't call them the GREATEST simply, GREAT.

 

Nope.

 

Lanfear said there are three sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor. Two of those are the Choedan Kal. The other one is unknown, and most likely lost.

 

 

Nope, you're wrong. I admit that's what you're supposed to think, but Lanfear says (and I quote) "'Not with that, certainly,' she added, grimacing at Callandor.  'There are only two more powerful that a man can use. One at least, I know, still exists". You are thinking of just a couple pages later when she says "Two great sa'angreal were made just before the end, one that you can use, one that I can. Far great than that sword. Their power is beyond imagining. With those, we could challenge even...The Great Lord himself. Even the Creator!" Both quotes come from The Shadow Rising and I'm positive that someone (could have been Lanfear, I'm thinking it was Moiraine though) mentions in either TGH or TDR that there are only two sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor, but I can't remember the specifics so it could simply be a reference to the Choedan Kal, but for sure there is an extremely powerful MALE sa'angreal missing.

 

Also, the warder bond happened sometime during or after the breaking as the Chosen did not know about it, but it would seem obvious that they knew about the trolloc bond, and I just thought it was worth mentioning that the trolloc bond, warder bond, and a'dam bond all seem to have several related characteristics, sharing of pain, death of the 'leader' of the bond causing bad things to happen, and the ability to force actions. The Warder bond always seemed like something invented to perhaps try to gain some measure of control over the remaining Male Aes Sedai, but just as likely it was simply a way for Aes Sedai to protect themselves during and after the Breaking (if it goes back quite that far.). The one last interesting thing I noticed was that Ishmael's status as a 'bad guy' seems very questionable, since he appears to have the situation under complete control, at least in the prologue of TGH (which is foreshadowtastic!) and if I'm not mistaken the guy who saved Rand at one point (mysterious traveler guy in Shadar Logoth) and he is shown over and over to be a subtle manipulator who appears to not be controlling anything, but based on the few insights we've seen, actually seems to have control over almost everything. Okay, so I lied, one more question: Is a use or understanding of the very very very old and mysterious disc Egwene finds in Tanchico ever found? By this point in my readthrough I've given up all pretenses of coincidence and so every little detail marked out seems to be important, especially the details that are unresolved still.

[Roxinos]

Nope, you're wrong.

 

No, I'm not. Because you repeated exactly what I said, and then added that it's a male sa'angreal.

 

...but for sure there is an extremely powerful MALE sa'angreal missing.

 

And I said that. I just didn't say it was just a male sa'angreal. I merely said it was a sa'angreal and that it was missing.

 

"There are only two more powerful that a man can use. One at least, I know, still exists."

 

Two male sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor. Three sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor.

 

You originally said, "...TWO Sa'angreal more powerful than the great statues..."

 

That's just wrong. From the quotes your provided, there are two male sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor. One of those two is the Choedan Kal. The other is unknown. It is also unknown if that other is stronger than the Choedan Kal or equal to its strength. It doesn't matter, really.

 

What you said was wrong. You even supported my point.

 

the warder bond happened sometime during or after the breaking as the Chosen did not know about it

 

So? The whole Seanchan invasion and Artur Hawkwing's armies and such happened after the Breaking as well. I'm quite sure by that time, the Warder bond had been invented.

[zanotam]

Nope, you're wrong.

 

No, I'm not. Because you repeated exactly what I said, and then added that it's a male sa'angreal.

 

...but for sure there is an extremely powerful MALE sa'angreal missing.

 

And I said that. I just didn't say it was just a male sa'angreal. I merely said it was a sa'angreal and that it was missing.

 

"There are only two more powerful that a man can use. One at least, I know, still exists."

 

Two male sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor. Three sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor.

 

You originally said, "...TWO Sa'angreal more powerful than the great statues..."

 

That's just wrong. From the quotes your provided, there are two male sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor. One of those two is the Choedan Kal. The other is unknown. It is also unknown if that other is stronger than the Choedan Kal or equal to its strength. It doesn't matter, really.

 

What you said was wrong. You even supported my point.

 

the warder bond happened sometime during or after the breaking as the Chosen did not know about it

 

So? The whole Seanchan invasion and Artur Hawkwing's armies and such happened after the Breaking as well. I'm quite sure by that time, the Warder bond had been invented.

 

I am genuinely sorry, I misread your post, and I didn't mean to antagonize you. The reason I mention that the missing one may be more powerful is because the Choedan Kal are special because they are a matching male and female pair and that was their key, but the male one is never referred to as the MOST powerful which it would presumably be if it was, the fact that the missing one is skirted around so much and avoided shows how important it is, I would assume. Also, it never says where the female Choedan Kal stands as far as power goes, and as stated constantly, a direct comparison is not going to be accurate, and so to say that there are only 3 more powerful than Callandor is not fair, as all that's mentioned is that there are 2 Male ones more powerful and that if wielded together, the Male and Female Choedan Kal are all that and a bag of chips.

 

The point I was making was that the Warder bond does not appear to exist outside of the WT areas, with no one else having it, and yet there are some similarities between the Warder Bond, the Aiel Bonding ceremony (which I'd forgotten and am including only because of how the channeling involved is apparently similar to that of the Warden bond), the a'dam link, and the link between a Mydrall and Trollocs, but only one of those existed before the Breaking and they were all seemingly created individually, but they share certain characteristics and are not very well understood, and since only one similar thing appears to have existed originally, it would seem logical that the others were at least partially based off of it. The lack of hard evidence makes it simply speculation however, and an AS who was on the other side of the Ocean invented the a'dam very early on, and I am almost positive that the Seanchan mentioned something about originally fighting Armies of the Night or something to that effect, which were linked to darkfriends on Rand's side of the ocean, and when the breaking began the Shadow still controlled a lot of land, and if that area managed to remain something similar to that, knowledge of the trolloc bond could still exist.

[Roxinos]

...the fact that the missing one is skirted around so much and avoided shows how important it is, I would assume.

 

And I would assume that it's just missing. It's gone. Probably at the bottom of the ocean or something. Lanfear has no clue where it is, and considering it's only been mentioned once, I highly doubt it's going to appear within the final three volumes to magically save the day.

 

...and the link between a Mydrall and Trollocs, but only one of those existed before the Breaking and they were all seemingly created individually, but they share certain characteristics and are not very well understood, and since only one similar thing appears to have existed originally, it would seem logical that the others were at least partially based off of it.

 

I see your point, now.

 

However, the nature of the Trollocs and Myrddraal baffled even Aginor, the creator of the Trollocs and, by proxy, the Myrddraal. The Myrddraal were basically an accident. A by-product of the Trollocs' creation. And even if they hadn't been, no one but Aginor studied the Shadowspawn. It seems unlikely that the link between the Myrddraal and the Trollocs had any influence on the creation of the other kinds of links (both in terms of weaves and in terms of ter'angreal).

 

The Aes Sedai who created the a'dam did so to curry favor in a leader who possessed a none-too-sunny disposition towards Aes Sedai. In fact, he downright hated them. The a'dam was quickly strapped to her, and, according to the Seanchan, she screamed when they made her damane. It seems unlikely that she had any links to the Shadow considering the a'dam garners no benefit for the Shadow if granted to the Light.

 

As for the other weaves like the Aiel weave and the Warder weave, it seems more likely that they were just discovered as a matter of course. Just as the Wondergirls discover such wonderful things as how to make cuendillar or how to Heal severing, it seems likely that others just discovered the Warder and Aiel weaves on their own.

[zanotam]

I would like to point out that something mentioned once has consistently managed to be massively important and if you read through the series carefully enough you might notice that the entire thing is dripping with foreshadowing and clues, the mysterious tower with no entrance, a lot of the minor characters themselves who at first appear to be nobodies and yet they keep showing up, RJ's tendency to hide important details and specifics in very odd places, the female Choden Kal for example is mentioned in book 1 and it's not even identified as a sa'angreal, and I can guarantee you there are a lot I'm not mentioning simply because of the fact that in my current read through I'm only on book 4 and only the things that seem odd or unresolved I'm remembering. I also thought I should mention that (I'm sorry for lack of details) the fact that there are more powerful ones than Callandor is mentioned in at least one other place before. I just have trouble believing that careful wording could be accidental, since it almost inevitably turns out to be very purposeful.

[Roxinos]

...the mysterious tower with no entrance...

 

Mentioned first in The Eye of the World. Then again in The Shadow Rising. Then again a few more times. Not comparable because it isn't mentioned just once and then never referred to again. There were hints that it was important throughout the entire series until it's pointedly declared as being important.

 

...a lot of the minor characters themselves who at first appear to be nobodies and yet they keep showing up...

 

Characters and objects are different. Characters play an on-going part in the world. Objects have a use. And an object is not very useful if it is only mentioned once and then never mentioned again. Especially not considering the object in question is lost even to a Chosen who has no doubt spent at least a little bit of time looking for it.

 

...RJ's tendency to hide important details and specifics in very odd places...

 

Yes, but he's always consistently dropped hints from various sources rather than just one source mentioning it once and then dropping it.

 

...the female Choden Kal for example is mentioned in book 1 and it's not even identified as a sa'angreal...

 

Yep. And Rand runs into the actual male Choedan Kal in the first book. And then in The Shadow Rising Lanfear says her aforementioned quote about there being two sa'angreal so powerful they could challenge the Creator himself with them. And then Rand actually sees the access key ter'angreal in Rhuidean and takes note of them especially.

 

All of those little hints throughout the series. As opposed to just one mention by one person and then never a hint again.

 

I also thought I should mention that (I'm sorry for lack of details) the fact that there are more powerful ones than Callandor is mentioned in at least one other place before.

 

I don't recall. Perhaps if you could find a quote. Or if someone else could do so for you.

 

 

 

Look, I'm not saying it's not possible that the other sa'angreal more powerful than the Sword That is Not a Sword may end up being found and being used and being important. I'm saying that it is unlikely. And quite frankly, it'd be quite cheap if something mentioned only once (at most twice if I factored in that mystery instance you make note of) throughout 11 books and a prequel played an important role.

[Dark Justice]

Well. rather boringif Rand just stubles over yet another powerful Sangreal, and then goes: Oh. Cool. Not a problem then. Why was I so worried about it all?

 

 

 

[Majsju]

While there is a lot of foreshadowing out there, it might be worth keeping in mind that RJ was quite fond of red herrings as well.

 

That said, if the mythical lost sa'angreal actually does still exist, I hope it turns out to be Whitebridge. That would be awesome ;D

[Roxinos]

Oh HELL yes. That'd be awesome.

[zanotam]

Well I guess that is true, and it's not necessarily Rand who is going to find the other one, and I don't know it, I know it's only mentioned twice, but it just, something about it really bugs me as being suspicious and I've gotten pretty good at noting important details, even if I don't necessarily know their meaning, and so when something bugs me that much I pay attention to it. Interestingly enough...twice to live and twice to die seems a reference to Mat as he is told his fate is to "to die and live again, and live once more part of what was", I know it's kinda obvious, but it's just a fun thing I just noticed while reading through. And of course, the twisted ring that leads to Telaranrhiod and the twisted doorways that lead to a place that seems to be very similar. A good example of something being mentioned barely if at all yet still being important has to be in TEotW in which Lan's past is explained (unless it's in TGH) and there is some mention of a cousin, who appears books later as 'slayer', and in that same story I do believe Jain Farstrider is mentioned and he appears to be linked to (sorry if I get the name wrong) Jaim, the guy who helps save Mat from the Golem and travels with him later.

 

I think a key to remember is that TWoT is a series built on the basic idea of "There is no such thing as a coincidence" as chance encounters, nobodys met, careless words, etc. are all mixed together and suddenly important. I also would liek to point out that while the signs of Rand's channeling were laden in the first book, it actually takes a very thorough read through with full knowledge of what happens to pick it up, so discounting something isn't always a good idea. Also of course, TWoT is a vast universe with many details and as we come to the end, all the disparate threads of plot are somehow going to come together, presumably into something amazing, and if Robert Jordan doesn't know how to be subtle (there are somethings mentioned that I can not even began to fathom what they are to become, and at least a few of them will probably turn out to be something) than I'm illiterate.

[deathgate]

Look, I'm not saying it's not possible that the other sa'angreal more powerful than the Sword That is Not a Sword may end up being found and being used and being important. I'm saying that it is unlikely. And quite frankly, it'd be quite cheap if something mentioned only once (at most twice if I factored in that mystery instance you make note of) throughout 11 books and a prequel played an important role.

 

Would you consider it cheap if it shows up in Demandred's hand?

[Roxinos]

Well I guess that is true, and it's not necessarily Rand who is going to find the other one, and I don't know it, I know it's only mentioned twice, but it just, something about it really bugs me as being suspicious and I've gotten pretty good at noting important details, even if I don't necessarily know their meaning, and so when something bugs me that much I pay attention to it.

 

Look up "red herrings."

 

Interestingly enough...twice to live and twice to die seems a reference to Mat as he is told his fate is to "to die and live again, and live once more part of what was", I know it's kinda obvious, but it's just a fun thing I just noticed while reading through.

 

Actually, that whole section very clearly is referring to Rand.

 

Twice and twice shall he be marked,

twice to live, and twice to die.

Once the heron, to set his path.

Twice the heron, to name him true.

Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost.

Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay.

 

A good example of something being mentioned barely if at all yet still being important has to be in TEotW in which Lan's past is explained (unless it's in TGH) and there is some mention of a cousin, who appears books later as 'slayer', and in that same story I do believe Jain Farstrider is mentioned and he appears to be linked to (sorry if I get the name wrong) Jaim, the guy who helps save Mat from the Golem and travels with him later.

 

Except that bit about Lan's past is

 

A) not likely to be repeated again, so any mention of Lan's cousin in it is naturally not going to be repeated again and,

 

B) not talking entirely about Isam. It is not a "hint." It is merely a mention which maintains continuity. It seems reasonable in talking about Lan's past to mention Lan's cousin.

 

And Jain Farstrider is mentioned from the very beginning. After all, The Travels of Jain Farstrider are quite popular. I believe they're Egwene's favorite stories.

 

I think a key to remember is that TWoT is a series built on the basic idea of "There is no such thing as a coincidence" as chance encounters, nobodys met, careless words, etc. are all mixed together and suddenly important.

 

I think a key thing to remember is that any good author will include many instances of foreshadowing and many red herrings so that nothing is too obvious. So that you have to be careful with what you take to be a hint for something to come, because anything can be just a red herring. Anything can be simple world-building. Anything.

 

I also would liek to point out that while the signs of Rand's channeling were laden in the first book, it actually takes a very thorough read through with full knowledge of what happens to pick it up, so discounting something isn't always a good idea.

 

No, but neither is picking up every single thing that is mentioned and treating it as if it's foreshadowing.

 

...and if Robert Jordan doesn't know how to be subtle (there are somethings mentioned that I can not even began to fathom what they are to become, and at least a few of them will probably turn out to be something) than I'm illiterate.

 

And if Jordan doesn't know how to place red herrings, then I'm severely disappointed.

[zanotam]

I admit compared to some people I'm new to the series, my first read through being around 2003ish, but I think because of that I just don't think Robert Jordan puts many Red Herring's in these books. The foreshadowing may not be obvious when it happens, but almost always the connected event can be found in one of the later books. Plus, while throughout the series the sa'angreal are consistently described as being extremely rare, as the series progresses more and more caches of artifacts are found and if the little bit of knowledge gained from flashbacks are anything to go by, they are probably numerous enough for every WT Aes Sedai to have a few, and when you consider how secretive a lot of them are, I would not be at all surprised if a decent number turn up, and rather obviously if one is more powerful than the sword that is not a sword, than hiding it would be a pretty major priority. Actually, one of the odd things I've noticed is that the Aes Sedai are mentioned as having almost no sa'angreal, but that seems rather odd considering that even if they are rare and well hidden, during the breaking an Aes Sedai just had to show up and grab as many as they could carry from some Aiel, and yet even the Forsaken have trouble obtaining them, just an odd thing I noticed. Interestingly, the Aes Sedai who apparently knew Ishmael was not properly locked away also grabbed some sa'angreal and well.....what I'm trying to say is that it seems rather odd that sa'angreal, even angreal, are so incredibly rare in an age in which almost no one has one, and so the caches of artifacts turning up are obviously important, but a motherlode of male angreal and sa'angreal, even maybe female ones, seems like a likely thing. (my understanding being currently that a lot of the stashes found thus far are either just collection of stray items or the bare remnants of once great caches.)

[Roxinos]

My first read-through started in about 2002 and ended in about 2004.

 

Red herrings exist. Just get used to it. They're in The Wheel of Time. They're in nearly every book which would have foreshadowing.

 

Get used to it.

 

Plus, while throughout the series the sa'angreal are consistently described as being extremely rare, as the series progresses more and more caches of artifacts are found and if the little bit of knowledge gained from flashbacks are anything to go by, they are probably numerous enough for every WT Aes Sedai to have a few, and when you consider how secretive a lot of them are, I would not be at all surprised if a decent number turn up, and rather obviously if one is more powerful than the sword that is not a sword, than hiding it would be a pretty major priority.

 

Wow that was a terribly long sentence. A really, really bad run-on. (Whereas that previous sentence of mine is a fragment.)

 

Sa'angreal are rare. Nothing changes that. Characters find caches of small angreal and multitudes of ter'angreal. Rhuidean, which is exceptional, had no sa'angreal. Plenty of ter'angreal and maybe a few angreal, but no sa'angreal.

 

...but that seems rather odd considering that even if they are rare and well hidden, during the breaking an Aes Sedai just had to show up and grab as many as they could carry from some Aiel...

 

First, who said the Aiel would be easy to find? They were traveling at all times. And the Breaking was a long period of time. The land was constantly shifting, and Aes Sedai were a bit busy trying to kill off all of the male Aes Sedai.

 

Second, who said the Aiel had any sa'angreal?

 

Things get lost. Things get buried. It was by sheer luck that someone found the giant male Choedan Kal. And it's friggin' huge. And it's not even halfway dug up.

 

It's just the way the world works. The majority of angreal are gone.

 

Again, get used to it.

[zanotam]

In book 4 it's specifically said an Aes Sedai carried off as many sa'angreal as she could, and in order of worth it would go sa'angreal-angreal-ter'angreal and so it would make sense that most caches found 3000 years after the fact would only have weaker angreal and ter'angreal. Plus, the idea that something that existed in a world presumably with a massive population, even if in relatively minute quantities, could be considered rare in a world in which maybe a few hundred people (focus being on Randland since that's what is covered in the books) is ludicrous. Seanchan do not appear to use angreal or sa'angreal, but that is probably related to the a'dam, yet they still have massive amounts of stuff from the AoL compared to the other side of the Aryth Ocean, and we know the Aiel and Seafolk have few if any artifacts, but everywhere ter'angreal seem to be a dime a dozen. Now obviously angrel and sa'angreal would be skimmed off and removed over time, but they don't just cease to exist, they don't. When does Robert Jordan use genuine red herrings? I've seen lots of instances in which the meaning of something isn't revealed for several books, and some of them still are only hinted at, but I can't think of any red herrings I've found so far (halfway through TSR.)

 

Sorry about the runon sentence, I'm currently at home and sick, so my thoughts are a little bit disjointed right now. I pride myself on my familiarity with the series, having read through it at least 5 or 6 times, probably closer to 9 or 10, and I usually read the original first edition versions, which are just amazingly well edited for original releases, which helps fuel my belief in how unlikely a slip up is.

[Roxinos]

Alright, so the Aiel had sa'angreal.

 

That doesn't change any of my other points.

 

Also:

 

...and in order of worth it would go sa'angreal-angreal-ter'angreal...

 

Angreal is the name for two things: one, the general name for all three objects of the Power; two, the name for the specific object of the Power which allows a channeler to draw more Power than they would normally be able to.

 

Sa'angreal could, definitely, be put above angreal because they both have the same function, and the former does the latter's job to a much greater degree.

 

Ter'angreal however, cannot be compared to the other two. Ter'angreal do so many different things that they're on a different level altogether. Incomparable.

[zanotam]

I meant that if you were an Aes-Sedai during and soon after the breaking, you'd be trying to get your hands on them in that order. I know it's the general name for objects involved with the power, but it just it's...Well lets me restart. To start with,t he idea that all the male sa'angreal and angreal got destroyed is crazy, it's well understood that they were hidden and kept safe in various places, the female sa'angreal and angreal however would have no reason to be hidden and kept safe (well, maybe from dread lords, but those came later I believe) and yet the female Forsaken have just as much trouble getting angreal and sa'angreal as the male ones do. There are hardly any known female angreal and sa'angreal, so few that unless I'm much mistaken the Rhuidean, Tear, and the one the bowl of winds was found in (forgot which city) were extremely large and impressive finds, yet they were mostly just little collection of everything that could be found or very small compared to the original size. The books start off in a world in which knowledge is not growing, but ever dwindling and they help change that, but the fact that almost nothing is known compared to what was seems obvious, and I just can not believe that the same Aes Sedai who had the foresight to prepare the Stone and the Eye would be so stupid as to lose a bunch of angreal and sa'angreal.

[Roxinos]

Please learn to use paragraphs. It's really difficult to read a wall of text.

 

To start with,t he idea that all the male sa'angreal and angreal got destroyed is crazy...

 

Never said they did. Though, certainly a great deal of them were.

 

As for the rest...I'm pretty sure that you're underestimating how much 3000 years effects the world.

 

Needless to say, I've already said my piece. I've already backed it up. You have your beliefs, and I'm sticking with, "Learn what a red herring is. Learn to not read so deeply into things."

[banister]

the bowl of the winds is an sa'angreal I think. candanllor is a ter'angreal and etc, etc. so I think that during the age of legends, there were many of all three, until the breaking causing many of them to be reported missing, or what not.

[Roxinos]

...

 

No.

 

The Bowl of Winds is very clearly a ter'angreal. It manipulates the One Power for a specific purpose.

 

Callandor is very clearly a sa'angreal. It amplifies the amount of the One Power the channeler using it can draw without burning out exponentially.

[zanotam]

...

 

No.

 

The Bowl of Winds is very clearly a ter'angreal. It manipulates the One Power for a specific purpose.

 

Callandor is very clearly a sa'angreal. It amplifies the amount of the One Power the channeler using it can draw without burning out exponentially.

 

That's correct. I do udnerstand though, we can both say our point and if neither yields, oh well. Has anyone else noticed that it seems like, I don't know, Mat, Perrin, and Rand could sort of be reincarnations of the same person, or are Mat and Perrin something new?

 

The reason I mention that is that Lews Therin was supposed to be about as lucky as Mat is and an amazing general to boot. Perrin is presumably something new, but he does serve to keep Mat and Rand from getting too distracted and he does help hunt the shaido/rogue Aiel. Mat and Rand's connection is obvious in TSR where the quote from the KC

 

Twice and twice shall he be marked,

twice to live, and twice to die.

Once the heron, to set his path.

Twice the heron, to name him true.

Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost.

Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay.

 

The twice to live, and twice to die is almost word for word what mat is told. Remembrance lost and the price he must pay makes sense for both Mat and Rand during the Rhuidean visit. The KC makes no differentiation (well, I can't remember any) between the parts that refer to Mat, Rand, and/or Perin and so it makes perfect sense for a passage like that to be applicable in more ways than one.