Last 3 books, Titles

[Ludmian]

By both sides? Will you, please, remind, who called an idiot whom in the latest closed thread?

 

Note that I said that neither side gave ground.  I said nothing about name calling. 

 

Oops! It looks like I a little bit misunderstood this part of your post. Anyway, I believe I described the tactics both sides used pretty much accurately. Why should we have given ground to the people who have little to support their arguements other than insults, lies, and nitpicking?

 

Haven't we had a break between the moment the last thread was closed and Majsju going offtopic here?

 

Not that it matters much, but looking back Maj was commenting on someone else's post...Maj wasn't the one who brought the topic up.

 

I remember that. Maj picked up a sentence from someone's post and started to rehash his old semantic arguements. After that the thread started to revolve around those arguements even before I responded to Maj. Had he ignored that particular sentence ("had given ground", to use this expression one more time) the discussion would have gone differently. I didn't say Maj was the only one to blame for that. I said the thread has gone off-topic mostly due to his efforts.

 

[Eighty89]

Firstly, let me apologise for stirring up a hornet's next. I have only been checking dragonmount every 2 months or so for the last couple of years looking for Book 12 updates, so i am not familiar with how much this topic has been discussed.

 

The post was my instantaneous reaction to what now seems to be old news to most, but news i had only just discovered. My point remains though: I still see no reason why it should go to 3 books. There should be a stronger editorial presence to have it fitted into 2. If Tolkien could write his whole epic inside 3 books (none of which were anywhere near the size of Lord of Chaos) this series should be able to be wrapt up in 2 books maximum (and i would still argue one). It should never have been allowed to bloom to 800,000 words.

 

Having had my rant, let me still say that i cannot wait to read the conclusion to this series as (despite it having too much padding - my personal opinion) it still has provided some of the best ideas and brilliant scenes (eg: Rand's visit to Rhuidean in The Shadow Rising) around in fantasy books today.

[Vambram]

I guess Ludmian forgot about all of the times that links and quotes were provided showing what Harriet and Sanderson thought about this issue. *shrugs* Oh well, There is nothing that I am going to do about his forgetfulness.

[Mr Ares]

Robert Jordan swore it would be done in 1 book (no matter how big).

No, he did not say any such thing.

Do we really need to go through this again, Maj? As I've already given the "one book, because I can't split it without harming the quality" quote, I think it's your turn to provide the "I know I said I wanted the best finale possible, and I know I said the only way to get that is one more book, but I really think it should be split in two" quote.

There is a difference between writing two individual books, and writing a single book that is split in two parts. What RJ said was that he would write one book, and that he would try to make TOR publish it as a single volume. He has never promised that AMOL would not be split.

I still note an absence of quotes to support your point.

 

I wonder how many threads will have to be locked before this discussion stays exactly where it has been the whole time.   :D

I wonder how many pages of Asmo debate it will take to convince everyone it was Graendal?

 

Majsju, do you really need to bring this same discussion to a thread where it obviously doesn't belong?

Majsju wasn't the one who introduced this point to the thread.

 

It's not the topic that causes the threads to die. It's the bad air that gets generated through both sides of the argument not giving any ground.

Bad air and both sides refusing to give ground is not uncommon. Usually doesn't result in threads being locked.

 

Personally, I feel it's past time to give the topic a rest.  For heaven's sake, even boxers get a break between rounds.  Let's talk about something else for a while.  ;D

No-one is forcing you to talk about it, there are many other topics ongoing at the moment.

 

My point remains though: I still see no reason why it should go to 3 books.

Have you actually read the reasons given?

There should be a stronger editorial presence to have it fitted into 2.

The editor was one of the people responsible for the decision.

If Tolkien could write his whole epic inside 3 books (none of which were anywhere near the size of Lord of Chaos) this series should be able to be wrapt up in 2 books maximum (and i would still argue one).

Tolkien's epic in three volumes? No. The Silmarillion was one, Lord of the Rings was one, the Hobbit was one, the Children of Hurin was one, and there a lot more than just those. Also, Tolkien's works were completely different to RJ's. You really cannot argue that because one author something, that that would work for a completely different author working with a completely different beast.

It should never have been allowed to bloom to 800,000 words.

On the contrary, it should be allowed to bloom to as long as it needs to be, and if that is 800,000 words then so be it.

 

If this was completed inside 6 books it would have been a ripper but it suffers from too much padding.

This series could not have been done in six books, not without rewrites so substantial it is to all intents and purposes a different series.

 

I guess Ludmian forgot about all of the times that links and quotes were provided showing what Harriet and Sanderson thought about this issue. *shrugs* Oh well, There is nothing that I am going to do about his forgetfulness.

I don't think he's forgotten at all, especially as he provided more links and quotes than anyone. I certainly don't think he's forgotten about BS telling us that both Harriet and Tom don't think RJ would have split this book.

[seasnake]

Shifting winds worked with A Memory of Light supertitle.

 

I like something to do with darkness for the penultimate book to contrast it with A Memory of Light,  I also hope that there is a Season mention with the other Prequel I've heard about, it seems the most likely other book is the story of Tam Al Thor. 

 

So I would pick something like (and I'm just shooting from the hip here) The Final Darkness, The Darkest Hour, The Approaching Darkness, The World in Darkness, something like that.  I favor the second because I like how it flows:  The Gathering Storm, The Darkest Hour, A Memory of Light.  Something to do with the darkening of the world.  Plus it hearkens back to The Shadow Rising, which is my favorite book.

 

For the Prequel, I'd like something like The Last Summer or something seasonal to fit with The New Spring.  I don't care about any other outrigger novels really, 16 books is plenty.

 

What I'd really want though, more than anything else, is to release the paperbacks with new covers and binding.  The books wear out really easy and the cover art stinks. 

[Vambram]

I don't think he's forgotten at all, especially as he provided more links and quotes than anyone. I certainly don't think he's forgotten about BS telling us that both Harriet and Tom don't think RJ would have split this book.

 

Very well, Mr Ares. I shall post the quotes from Harriet's interview one more time, and allow her very own words to speak for themselves.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/Books/Memory_of_Light/harriet_interview_01.php

Question: How did the decision to divide this final book into three parts come about? Was it a publishing necessity, a story necessity, or something else?

 

Answer: The material that Jim left was very capacious, and Brandon saw after working with it for a while that he could not complete it in less than a total of 750,000 words. This is probably an impossible thing to bind - unless we sold it with a magnifying glass. 250,000 words is in fact a fat, or Rubensesque, novel. You will notice that 3 x 250,000 equals 750,000. So... part of the decision was based on making a book within the scope of binding technology. The major part of the decision was to get ALL the story that Jim left out there for us all.

 

Question: How do you think Jim would feel about the way the book is being handled, both writing it and publishing it?

 

Answer: I think he would be pleased. He very definitely wanted the series finished, you know. And it is being handled with love by all concerned. Alan has worked with us for eight years, and Maria for twelve, and love of the books is an old habit of theirs - as it is of mine. And it is an old habit of Brandon's, too, as you can see in the wonderful eulogy he wrote when Jim died.

 

 

There you have it my friends, one more time, straight answers from Harriet. Make of it what you will. I know that I find her answers to be legitimate, and straightforward and honest.

[Eighty89]

I have actually read the reasons. I choose to disagree with them. This series has obviously been dragged out once it became established it was extremely popular and could be a money spinner. I understand that it was partly an editorial decision to split AMOL into 3 but my point is that whoever is editing this series should have been more cutthroat in allowing it to go to so many words and thus books (my particular view).

 

My understanding of this series was that it was originally conceived as a trilogy and then early on Jordan admitted that he saw it becoming a 6 book series. Please don't delude yourself that this can somehow blow out to 14 books accidently. Surely when you conceive something and have a rough idea of the story when you give an idea on number of books, you have worked out a rough plot arc and have some idea what the climaxes will be for each book. To take it to as many books as it has been taken is purely and simply a way of stringing it out.

 

Yes, a lot of good material has been added, but on the flip side there is a lot of padding in the series (this has been one of the biggest gripes of fans). I reiterate my point. If the main parts and concepts of this story had been completed inside 6 books (impossible at this late stage but definately achievable early on in the series when it was still coming together) it would have stood head and shoulders above most series.

 

I know that the depth of this series is partly what attracts so many and makes it a standout for them, but sometimes less is more and my view is that this same story streamlined into about 6 novels would have made a fantastic series absolutely great. 6 novels in a series would still be epic and in depth!!

 

Again, i stress my point, I understand the reasonings behind the 3 book option (it can be argued to make sense given the parameters), but i would argue that it should not have been allowed to grow to that length. I will eat my words if the quality is there to back it up and I see a minimum of paddiding, but i am yet to be convinced. Call me sceptical based upon the past performance of a ballooning book count where the number of books RJ said he'd need just kept growing and growing.

 

Consumers' feelings shouldn't be taken lightly and they generally don't like having the piss taken out of them when it comes to parting with their hard-earned cash.

 

Please don't think i am not a fan of this series. I have taken great enjoyment from reading it and following the online communities and the many forum discussions. Part of my frustration is simply that because the good in this series is so good, the frustrating parts are only accentuated. I am simply providing comment on one issue and addressing the misconceptions of some fellow fans posting on this thread. It is, after all, a forum.

[Vambram]

I am glad that the WOT series was  not merely another 6 book fantasy series. I am extremely satisfied with the 11 books that RJ wrote and that Harriet edited for the Wheel of Time series. Did I enjoy each and ever page and word written by RJ from EoTW through Kod? No, but I am still extremely satisfied with the length and depth and greatness of these books.

[Rand18]

I like The Gathering Storm for book 12 and A Memory Of Light for book 14

[Ludmian]

I guess Ludmian forgot about all of the times that links and quotes were provided showing what Harriet and Sanderson thought about this issue. *shrugs* Oh well, There is nothing that I am going to do about his forgetfulness.

 

No, I haven't forgotten. You know, in a debate like this there's a slight difference between posting Harriet's interview a dozen times and repeating after each time you posted, "Harriet can say and do no wrong, you, delusional idiot" and trying to find reasonable arguments to support your opinion, providing quotes and links from various sources. (No, the phrase above wasn't a quote from you, it was a generalisation of my opponents' attitude). Harriet says that a one-volume AMoL is not within the scope of binding technology. Should I ignore the fact that there exist a lot of books that are as long or longer than AMoL would have to be? Harriet says that a 250,000-word novel is "Rubensesque". No one doubts that it's a rather long novel, but should I ignore the fact that it would be one of the shortest in the series? Tom says that a fantasy novel the size of LoC or even shorter is unpublishable in today's market. Should I ignore the fact that books of that size or longer are are regularly published by various publishers, including Tor? For every fact I provide I'm told, "How dare you counter something that Harriet and Brandon said with your filthy facts?"

 

As for Brandon's article, I think I quoted it here more times than all the other people combined. I'm still waiting for Majsju to give his opinion on a couple of quotes I provided.  ;D

 

I have actually read the reasons. I choose to disagree with them.

 

So do I, although for entirely different reasons.

 

This series has obviously been dragged out once it became established it was extremely popular and could be a money spinner.

 

BS.

 

I understand that it was partly an editorial decision to split AMOL into 3 but my point is that whoever is editing this series should have been more cutthroat in allowing it to go to so many words and thus books (my particular view).

 

AMoL should be allowed to go to as many words as Brandon thinks are needed. How and when all those words should have been published is another matter.

 

 

 

My understanding of this series was...

 

Your understanding is remarkably wrong. You need to read what RJ actually said about how the series was concieved and how the individual books in the series were written.

 

I am glad that the WOT series was  not merely another 6 book fantasy series. I am extremely satisfied with the 11 books that RJ wrote and that Harriet edited for the Wheel of Time series. Did I enjoy each and ever page and word written by RJ from EoTW through Kod? No, but I am still extremely satisfied with the length and depth and greatness of these books.

 

Amen to that.

[Majsju]

I'm still waiting for Majsju to give his opinion on a couple of quotes I provided.  ;D

 

 

 

And what could that possibly be?

[Vambram]

Well, Ludmian, at least you and I do agree about something. Thats a start. :D

However, please provide for me examples of Fantasy fiction novels that run over 1500 pages in hardback that are published by Tor, or even anyone else. In my opinion, the total amount of pages for Books 12, 13, and 14 will be over 1500 pages in Hardback form. In ALL of my thousands of trips to bookstores over the last 30 years, I do not recall ever seeing one fiction hardback book that was over 1500 pages. Therefore, please give me an example of another book that would back up your point of view and your disagreement with Harriet's decision. Thank you. :)

[Eighty89]

Ludmian and others who believe this series hasn't been dragged out because it was a money spinner, feel free to continue to delude yourselves. See the following quotes regarding the original scope of the works. 6 books doesn't blow out to 12-14 unless it is deliberately stretched out. If you want to be blinded by your love of the good stuff in this series, so be it, but most people can love something but also see a rip off when it's in front of their face.

 

From Wikipedia:

 

"Originally planned as a six-book series, it now consists of eleven published novels, with one more book to come, which will be published in three volumes."

 

From http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TrilogyCreep:

 

"At World Con 2008 Tom Doherty of Tor Books finally put this long-standing rumour to rest: it was originally planned to be six books when Robert Jordan proposed the series to him in 1984, before he even started writing the first book."

 

From http://www.sciencefictionandfantasy.co.uk/the-wheel-of-time.htm:

 

"The series was originally planned as six books but now contains 11 novels with a 12th and final unfinished novel (A Memory of Light) being completed by the author Brandon Sanderson."

 

See also the following fan comments summarising the discontent. Please note that most of these such dissenters are fans but are rightly angered by having the piss taken out of them with stretching something that could have been so good into something of too long length with too much fluff.

 

From http://www.toplessrobot.com/2009/04/the_wheel_of_time_keep_on_rollin_rollin_rollin.php:

 

"mojo said:

You are absolutely right about those books, but you cant read just one, and by the time you are 5 or 6 deep you kinda have to keep going or you basically admit you wasted all those hours. I know that jordan died before the series was finished just to piss everyone off, writing new spring instead of working on the core books when he knew he was in bad health is proof of that.

 

I read an interview with sanderson, and I thought he said that the majority of the book was outlined or written already. So is he adding a bunch of fluff?

 

Posted 04/02/2009 at 09:34:46 AM

Kenshiro said:

RAGE!! How clever of them! Jordan probably had a clause in his will for his estate to continue to f*ck over his readers. I hope his successors can write pages and pages about people's dresses. Curses. oh and curses to idiots like me who will probably buy it anyways for some goddamn closure to the story.

 

Posted 04/02/2009 at 09:35:44 AM"

 

There seems to be a strong contingent on this website who think the sun shines out of Harriet's and Tor's and Jordan's and Sanderson's buts and anything they have done is justifiable. Unfortunately their vision, and the good they are producing, has been clouded by the dollar and the art has suffered. And the consumer has been ripped off. Simple as that.

 

I know I don't have to buy the books, but once hooked they are hard to give up on, a fact that the above parties knew all too well and played on. But in the end, it only hurts the artist's reputation.

 

[Vambram]

Eighty89 you can post all of the quotes you want. But until you find a quote where RJ says that he deliberately lengthened the WOT just to make more money, then all that you have is your own opinion and your own interpretation of a few quotes.

[seasnake]

Something only hurts an artist's reputation if it isn't good.  I haven't read a novel yet in this series I didn't enjoy, even the ones that were not my favorites had more win to offer than lose. 

 

To look at another author, Jim Butcher's Harry Dresden character is on book 9, I think, and he could write quite a few more and if the quality is there I'd still buy them.  Meanwhile Jim Butcher's other series, Codex Alera, is set to wrap in 6 books and it will be satisfying.  Or look at Terry Pratchett, who has about 25 books in Discworld yet some of his later ones, like Night Watch and Going Postal, were better than his early works like Sourcery and Colour of Magic. 

 

The point is that author quality is not determined by how many books, it's by how many good books.  And so far I think every book in Wheel of Time is good.  The little details, like the dresses, accents, geography, many side details, all come together to make a well-rounded world.  Some people maybe want action action action, but I like these books well enough to say that if the material is there to make three more quality books, make 'em.

 

We'll only know if the quality is there when they're published.

[water_seeker]

Eighty89, I once wrote a paper that I guessed would be 9 pages by the time I was done with it.  When I finished writing it I had cut out a lot of material (over half)and still had 27 pages.

 

I know the two are only barely related, but the idea is the same.  When you just start out, it's almost impossible to know how far the story is going to progress.  To be honest, I really think that if we removed all the "unecessary" material, we would still be looking at at least 10 books.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The greatest asset any fantasy writer has is a willing and actively participating reader.  One who uses his own imagination to flesh-out the glossed over bits.

 

What Jordan deliberately did was create passive readers.  Readers who largely expect to be spoon-fed every jot and tittle.

 

That does the reader, the series, and the author a tremendous disservice.  It bloats the books with endless sniffing, and pouting and skirt smoothing to no real purpose.  After the first dozen episodes of such stuff, we get it already.  He could have quit beating us over the head with it by book two or three, and saved hundreds if not thousands of pages, and finished the series 8 or 10 years ago.

 

Interpret why he chose not to do that as you will.

[Vambram]

Passive readers? Surely, you jest. With all of the WOT fanatics out here on the many WOT websites, the countless theories and arguments, how can you say we are passive readers?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Because so many of you fawn endlessly over the "depth of detail."  Much of which is nothing but extraneous fluff.

[Eighty89]

Here, here, Bob T Dwarf! Couldn't have summed it up better myself. Passive readers are readers who need every detail explained. Too much description only bogs a book down. Readers (ones who don't have stars in their eyes like some here) only need certain key and tightly written descriptions and use their imagination to paint the rest and let the story move on.

 

Here's a good quote from Stephen King that sums it up:

 

"Description begins in the writer’s imagination,

but should finish in the reader’s."

 

He then go's on to write:

 

"I think locale and texture are much more important to the

reader’s sense of actually being in the story than any physical

description of the players. Nor do I think that physical description

should be a shortcut to character. So spare me, if you

please, the hero’s sharply intelligent blue eyes and outthrust

determined chin; likewise the heroine’s arrogant cheekbones.

This sort of thing is bad technique and lazy writing, the

equivalent of all those tiresome adverbs.

For me, good description usually consists of a few well chosen

details that will stand for everything else."

 

What were quirky character's attributes or distinct images became rather annoying after they were repeated 500 times! Also, I don't need all my description spoon fed to me. I have a good imagination, and a good author paints just enough of an image for everyone to form their own picture of something / someone (usually everyone sees it slightly differently, but that is all good). I don't need to be bogged down in pages and pages of it every chapter.

 

Can't agree with you more water_seeker. Bringing this same story down to 10 books would have been fantastic and a great improvement!

 

And to those who want a quote from RJ, you aren't going to get one!!! He has been 50% responsible (the other 50% are those who benefited from the book sales, ie: publishers, etc) for allowing this bloat to happen. They have given every excuse under the sun why it "had to happen", and the series had to be extended, but that is all it is, just a smoke screen that seems to work on fawning fans who can't see the obvious. This latest stunt is just another example. He's not going to come right out and say that now, is he?! But most others can see it for what it is, even if you can't.

 

After every book from about book seven onwards, he kept saying he was only about 2 away from finishing:

 

"In a online chat on the USA Today Web site, Jordan said he hoped

to finish the main "Wheel" series in two more books. "It's not an absolute

promise, but I'm very much hoping for it and I think I can do it," he

wrote."

 

He just kept recycling this comment as the books piled up. Couldn't find any others at short notice but these sort of comments are littered throughout interviews, amazon reviews, online articles, etc after finishing each book from WOT 7 onwards.

 

So as I said, bluster and blow all you want, but you really have your heads in the sand.

[seasnake]

So Bob and 8089, what do you call good fiction with active readers?  Harry Potter enthusiasts with endless reams of fanfic?  Eragon, with its nonsensical details and apologist readers who try to picture how every mistake and omission works? 

 

I'd rather an author err on the side of too much detail and know what he is talking about than an author who gives too little.  The best authors, G.R.R. Martin, Stephen King, J.R.R. Tolkien gave an incredible amount of detail and background to flush out their worlds.  The hues and colors, the character interactions, even the mythologies and held beliefs all come out in their works and the worlds seem to live and breathe and be the better for it.  Heck, look at some of the classics, like Victor Hugo's Les Miserables or Dicken's A Christmas Carol, or even C.F. Forrester's Hornblower books.  Do we need to every winch and halyard on the Hotspur as it creaks in an splinters?  Not really, but it puts you in the character's shoes and let's you get into the adventure.  Do we need to know the social currents among young women of upper middle class that led to Fantine's mothering a child out of wed lock?  No, but it thrusts you into the time period so you can fully appreciate what's happening.

 

Heck, even the Bible is chock full of details, as authors try desperately to convey the situation to future generations.  Imagine if the story of David and Goliath was simply "One day David encountered a man much larger than him that threatened to kill him, but David prayed and won the battle!"  it doesn't do justice to the story and what it meant and why it was key.

 

Too much detail?  You both make me laugh, if you want to look at inferior fiction and nonfiction by all means look for authors who make stuff explode every other page or let a mystery linger one chapter before it is explained to the audience.  I prefer authors that focus on character, plot, setting, and yes detail.  The details make the characters come to life in any great work. 

 

But if you like flat characters and silly books, you are free to enjoy them.

[Ludmian]

Ludmian and others who believe this series hasn't been dragged out because it was a money spinner, feel free to continue to delude yourselves. See the following quotes regarding the original scope of the works. 6 books doesn't blow out to 12-14 unless it is deliberately stretched out. If you want to be blinded by your love of the good stuff in this series, so be it, but most people can love something but also see a rip off when it's in front of their face.

 

From Wikipedia:

 

Again, read what RJ actually said about how the series was concieved and written. If you give RJ's words a thought it will put the information about "six books" that floats around everywhere in a new context. You'll see that what you said about an outline and climaxes for six books has little resemblance to the series' actual history. Do you really think that Wikipedia or anyone else can know about the series' conception and writing more than the author is willing to tell?

 

But even the series' history aside, do you really think it's always possible to predict how may words you'll need to write something? That's what I'd call deluded. water_seeker  has mentioned here a paper that has grown from the initially planned 9 pages to 27 pages. Such things happen all the time. George RR Martin initially thought that his A Song of Ice and Fire was going to be a trilogy. Now he thinks that there will be 7 books in the series, though no one can guarantee that it won't be longer than that. Is he deliberately stretching it?

 

I know that jordan died before the series was finished just to piss everyone off,

 

The BS you copypasted doesn't prove anything. The only thing it can prove is that there are a lot of people who badly, badly suck. By the way, The New Spring was published in January 2004, RJ was diagnosed with amyloidosis in December 2005, almost two years after that. But if you are capable of copypasting this horrible BS at all, I don't think you really care whether the obvious facts there are misrepresented or not.

 

 

After every book from about book seven onwards, he kept saying he was only about 2 away from finishing:

 

"In a online chat on the USA Today Web site, Jordan said he hoped

to finish the main "Wheel" series in two more books. "It's not an absolute

promise, but I'm very much hoping for it and I think I can do it," he

wrote."

 

He just kept recycling this comment as the books piled up. Couldn't find any others at short notice but these sort of comments are littered throughout interviews, amazon reviews, online articles, etc after finishing each book from WOT 7 onwards.

 

So as I said, bluster and blow all you want, but you really have your heads in the sand.

 

Do you mean this chat?

 

http://cgi1.usatoday.com/mchat/20040106007/tscript.htm

 

In case you haven't noticed, this chat is from January 2004. I'm not surprised that you didn't give a link to the chat or to whatever news article about it you were quoting. To use this quote is a dirty trick. At that time RJ was working on Book 11, and until his death he believed that the series was going to end with book 12, A Memory of Light. Now A Memory of Light is being butchered by Tom Doherty, but RJ is not the one to blame for that.

 

I'm not surprised that you couldn't find any quote from the time when books 7-9 were published where RJ said he was going to finish the series in "only two books". Such quotes do not exist. It's not like RJ's opinion on the length of the series were hard to find. There are tons of RJ's interviews, chats, reports from his book signing tours, and the question "How many more books will there be in the series?" is probably the one most often asked in them. And each time RJ was asked this question he replied something like "There will be at least three more books".

 

Compuserve October 1994

 

Gordon B

 

Mr Jordan, are you still planing only 7 books in the series, and will the next book be released on the tradtitional dat of mid oct?

 

Robert Jordan

 

It's been a long time since I was planning only seven books in the series. There will be several more books, and the next one will be published when I can finish it. GA

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Compuserve_October_1994

 

First AOL Chat October 1994

 

Jdieu: Hello, just to say I LOVE your books, I was wondering how long you will continue the saga because I read in the prologue of the first book that the battle lasted about ten years? And it's only been about two up to the 6th book.

 

RJ: It will last several more books, until I reach the last scene, which has been in my head since the very beginning.

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/First_AOL_Chat_October_1994

 

 

Charleston, SC Post-ACOS Signing--21 June, 1996; report by Brian Ritchie.

 

There will be a few more books, some, not a lot, hopefully fewer than seven more.

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Charleston%2C_SC_Post-ACOS_Signing--21_June%2C_1996%

 

Compuserve Chat June 1996

 

I do not know how many more books there will be. There will be at least ten total, probably more but the safest way to say that is to say "there will be a few more, not too many, and please god not as many as have already been written!"

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Compuserve_Chat_June_1996

 

 

Walden Books Interviews Robert Jordan: October, 1998

 

WBR: The Path of Daggers is Book Eight in the Wheel of Time series. Do you know how many more books there will be? Has that number changed in since you started writing The Wheel of Time? Do you have plans for a new or different type of series?

 

RJ: I believe—believe!—there will be three more books. I am trying to finish up as soon as possible, but I cannot see how to do it in fewer than three books. That isn’t a guarantee, mind!

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Walden_Books_Interviews_Robert_Jordan:_October%2C_1998

 

Barnes and Noble Chat October 19, 1998

 

Julia from wotism.org: How many books long do you think The Wheel of Time series will end up being? Do you have any idea how long it will take to finish writing the series?

 

RJ: I'm not really clear. When I finished A Crown of Swords, I said it would take me at least three books more to finish. Now that I have completed The Path of Daggers it looks like it will take me at least three more books to finish. believe me, guys, I'm trying as hard as I can to get there as fast as I can.

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Barnes_and_Noble_Chat_October_19%2C_1998

 

Barnes and Noble Chat November 11, 2000

 

MD Young from Plano, TX: In the chat before PoD, you said that you felt 3 more books were needed to complete the series. Are we down to 2 more books now, or has the series been pushed back to another book?

 

 

RJ: It still sits at 3 more books to finish, but I've always said from the time I began using the 3 books that it would be AT LEAST 3 books -- that I'd try to finish in at least 3 books, but I couldn't promise. I know that I couldn't possibly finish in fewer than 3. If I can finish in 3, I will. But that's what I'm hoping for, what I'm trying for. NOT a promise.

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Barnes_and_Noble_Chat_November_11%2C_2000

 

 

SciFi.com ChatNovember 14, 2000

 

Moderator: <samugi> to <Moderator>: With the storyline as it is now it seems unlikely that the new book will finish the series. How many more books do you feel will be in this series?

 

RobertJordan: There will be at least three more books

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/SciFi.com_ChatNovember_14%2C_2000

 

There really is a big difference between "only two books" and "at least three more books." Now, who is hiding his head in the sand?

 

Well, Ludmian, at least you and I do agree about something. Thats a start. :D

However, please provide for me examples of Fantasy fiction novels that run over 1500 pages in hardback that are published by Tor, or even anyone else. In my opinion, the total amount of pages for Books 12, 13, and 14 will be over 1500 pages in Hardback form. In ALL of my thousands of trips to bookstores over the last 30 years, I do not recall ever seeing one fiction hardback book that was over 1500 pages. Therefore, please give me an example of another book that would back up your point of view and your disagreement with Harriet's decision. Thank you. :)

 

You misrepresent what I said. I never said that a lot of 1500-page fantasy novels are published today. Tom and Harriet never said that a 1500-page novel is unpublishable due to bookshops whims. They said, among other things, that

 

a) a book the size of AMoL is not within the scope of binding technology. Have I provided enough proof that a book of such size is within the scope of binding technology or do you need more?

 

b) This time I'll quote Brandon.

 

By this point, I'd already warned Tom and Harriet that I saw the length being very large, but I hadn't told Tom the 700-800k number. When I'd mentioned 400k to him once, he'd been wary. He explained to me that he felt 400k was unprintably large in today's publishing market. Things have changed since the 90's, and booksellers are increasingly frustrated with the fantasy genre, which tends to take up a lot of shelf space with very few books. There is constant pressure from the big chain bookstores to keep things smaller and thinner. When I'd turned in Mistborn 2 (revised and already trimmed) at 250k, production and marketing had nearly had a fit, complaining that the book would cost more to print than it would make. Tom approved the publication of the book anyway. (And fortunately we managed to fit it into enough pages--and sell enough copies--that it was still profitable.)

 

Anyway, Tom implied that 400k was what he saw as a cut off for length. Anything 300-350 could be one book, anything over 350 should be cut. (That's me guessing on things he said; he never gave those hardfast numbers, and I know there was probably some flexibility.)

 

400,000 thousand words is about the length of LoC, according to Wikipedia.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Lord-Chaos-Wheel-Time-Book/dp/0312854285/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241875144&sr=1-2

 

Lord of Chaos, 720 pages.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Toll-Hounds-Eight-Malazan-Fallen/dp/0765310082/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241875378&sr=1-5

 

832 pages, Publisher: Tor Books (September 16, 2008).

 

Self-explanatory, isn't it?

 

I'm still waiting for Majsju to give his opinion on a couple of quotes I provided.  ;D

 

 

 

And what could that possibly be?

 

You know what it could possibly be. But as you pretend not to, I'll remind you my question one more time. In his article about splitting AMoL Brandon mentioned two "promises". Promise 1:

 

He had promised readers a big, big book--not big for big's sake, but big because there was so much to do, so much to tie up...

 

But you are also splitting a book that Robert Jordan intended to be one book.

 

Promise 2:

 

2) You could publish the 400k as they are done right now. If you do this, the readers do not get a book in 2009. 400k would take roughly four months to revise (and that's rushing it), and you'd have to put the novel into production with a January or February 2010 release date. That's not too far off the November 2009 date you'd promised people, so maybe they would be satisfied. But you'd leave them with a story that literally cut off right in the middle of several plotlines, and which did not have tied up resolutions...

 

Now, let's assume you made this decision, just as Tom did. This is the ONLY case in which you get to keep your promise to the Wheel of Time readers and deliver a book in 2009.

 

You've made it clear many times that you don't agree with Brandon when he talks about RJ's promise. Do you agree with Brandon when he says that Tor promised us a book in November 2009. And if you do, will you please provide a quote where Tor promises us a book this Fall?

[Majsju]

[quote author=Ludmian link=topic=42722.msg1134359#msg1134359

 

 

You've made it clear many times that you don't agree with Brandon when he talks about RJ's promise. Do you agree with Brandon when he says that Tor promised us a book in November 2009. And if you do, will you please provide a quote where Tor promises us a book this Fall?

 

Brandonds first mention of a promise, there you have the difference between writing and publishing. The prmoise is to write AMOL as one book, the last book of WOT. It is not a promise about how it is supposed to be published. Had RJ managed to finish it himself, he could have published a chapter every week for a couple of years in some obscure magasine, it would still be one book.

Did Martins 'A Storm Of Swords' suddenly become two books instead of one when it was split for the paperback edition?

 

As for the second, ask Brandon, he is the one talking about some promise TOR supposedly made. Why do you insist on pestering me about something someone else said?

[Mr Ares]

I don't think he's forgotten at all, especially as he provided more links and quotes than anyone. I certainly don't think he's forgotten about BS telling us that both Harriet and Tom don't think RJ would have split this book.

 

Very well, Mr Ares. I shall post the quotes from Harriet's interview one more time, and allow her very own words to speak for themselves.

Very well, Vambram. I shall post the quote from Brandon's article one more time, and allow his words to speak for themselves.

But you are also splitting a book that Robert Jordan intended to be one book. (Tom and Harriet both have said they don't think he could have done it, or would have done it, given the chance.)

 

I have actually read the reasons. I choose to disagree with them.

Why?

 

My understanding of this series was that it was originally conceived as a trilogy

Your understanding is wrong. Quoth the man himself: "It wasn't difficult to get Tor to publish my first novel. Tom Doherty liked what I write. I've been writing for 20 years and I told him that I had an idea for a multi-volume book. I didn't know how many books and probably any other publishers would have thrown me out of his office, but Tom said OK!" He didn't stick a number of books on it, because he didn't know how long it would have to be, although he made various estimates that were later revised, and one promise about one more book.

 

If the main parts and concepts of this story had been completed inside 6 books (impossible at this late stage but definately achievable early on in the series when it was still coming together) it would have stood head and shoulders above most series.

It couldn't be done without such substantial rewriting it would essentially become a completely new series. Not just cutting out "padding", but dramatically restructuring the books and omitting much of what he planned to include, and much else not givent the required breathing space. Bear in mind that Osan'gar and Aran'gar were part of his plans originally. He had a lot of plot points that he wanted to cover, but it wasn't set in stone how he would get from one to another. He wanted to give himself some freedom when it came to writing the books.

 

i would argue that it should not have been allowed to grow to that length.

Your argument is worthless. It should be as long as it needs to be, no more no less. If RJ produced a six book series, it would most likely be drastically underwritten and people would complain about it being too short, and things needing more room to breathe. While cuts could be made to the series, there is not sufficient "padding" to erase more than half the length of the series.

 

Consumers' feelings shouldn't be taken lightly and they generally don't like having the piss taken out of them when it comes to parting with their hard-earned cash.

And what do the consumers feel? Well, Path of Daggers was the first to top the bestseller list, as did all subsequent volumes. This series gets more popular, not less. Yeah, people are really unhappy, what with those drastic drops in sales and no longer hitting the top spot.

 

I am glad that the WOT series was  not merely another 6 book fantasy series.

Yes, because they're ten a penny...

 

I do not recall ever seeing one fiction hardback book that was over 1500 pages.

I have seen them over 1,200 pages, couple that with 300 pages of TGS, and you have three books where two could suffice.

 

From Wikipedia:

Wikipedia is wrong. Hardly a surprise.

From tvtropes.org:

Even less reliable than wikipedia.

From http://www.sciencefictionandfantasy.co.uk/the-wheel-of-time.htm:

A site that lists A Memory of Light as the 12th and final book (it was updated 8th May 09). And calls RJ James Oliver Rigby Jr. Again, unreliable.

 

I read an interview with sanderson, and I thought he said that the majority of the book was outlined or written already. So is he adding a bunch of fluff?

The bulk of the book has been outlined, but not written (hence getting someone in to write it). What RJ wrote was "the ending...the prologue and the rest of what he wrote totaled 200 manuscript pages [that’s about 50,000 words]." (http://peterahlstrom.blogspot.com/2008/08/rolling-up-wheel-of-time-panel.html) BS was hired to produce a minimum 200,000, which would still be the shortest book by a long way. With a hell of a lot to get through. Getting through in anything less than 400K is clearly unrealistic, so RJ produced 1/8 of the finished novel, maximum, as well as outlines and notes for the rest. And it is not unreasonable that it would grown beyond that.

 

There seems to be a strong contingent on this website who think the sun shines out of Harriet's and Tor's and Jordan's and Sanderson's buts and anything they have done is justifiable.

There appear to be a couple of idiots who think this series could only be saved by totally rewriting it.

 

But until you find a quote where RJ says that he deliberately lengthened the WOT just to make more money' date=' then all that you have is your own opinion and your own interpretation of a few quotes.[/quote']I remember a blof post from RJ defending him, saying he certainly didn't do that.

 

To look at another author' date=' Jim Butcher's Harry Dresden character is on book 9,[/quote']11. Turn Coat is the eleventh, and Butcher is planning quite a few more (twenty or so, I believe).

Or look at Terry Pratchett, who has about 25 books in Discworld

More than 30, and still going. Hmmmm, must be padded.

 

What Jordan deliberately did was create passive readers.  Readers who largely expect to be spoon-fed every jot and tittle.

Of course! That's the only thing that explains all those things he didn't spoon feed us, all those subtle clues left in various PoVs across various books that add up. Next you'll be telling us Bashere killed Asmo....wait, you already tried that.

 

Couldn't have summed it up better myself.

You do yourself a disservice, you are just as capable of talking shite as Bob.

 

Here's a good quote from Stephen King that sums it up

Stephen King might know quite a few things about writing, no denying that, but he doesn't know everything, and there's more than one way to skin a cat. RJ has a very descriptive style. He sometimes makes it work very well, sometimes not so well, but the style is not at fault. You can imagine WoT written by King, or any other author (perhaps someone should start a thread for us to do just such a thing), but that is not to say that RJ's style is flawed, simply that his execution of it sometimes is. King might tell you one way of doing things, with one style, and maybe Hemmingway would give you another, and Lovercraft another, but that doesn't change that RJ's way works fine, for the most part. Also, it should be noted that RJ does endings far better than King.

 

but you really have your heads in the sand.

You have your head stuck somewhere all right, but I don't think it's the sand.

 

The prmoise is to write AMOL as one book

A promise that has since been broken.

 

Did Martins 'A Storm Of Swords' suddenly become two books instead of one when it was split for the paperback edition?

Well, there are two books... Of course, there is also a single book edition, it was originally released as one book. And how many people still thnk Lord of the Rings is a trilogy?

[Eighty89]

Thank you Ludmian for finding the quotes I could not at short notice. Even now you obviously do not see how they only back up my point of view. RJ (pressured by Tor would be my guess) used such vague comments to leave the ending to his series open ended so he could string it out as long as he and the people at Tor wanted. The fact that he kept repeating this after every book (as you have so kindly found the many quotes for me) only shows this. The following quote of yours sums it up:

 

"do not know how many more books there will be. There will be at least ten total, probably more but the safest way to say that is to say "there will be a few more, not too many, and please god not as many as have already been written!"

 

The answer was: I will keep dragging it out while people keep buying them. It was only when the weight of discontent grew to such a level that he could not ignore it, that he finally said I better finish this. But even then, they found a way to drag it out to 3 novels.

 

Here's another one of your quotes:

 

"How many more books will there be in the series?" is probably the one most often asked in them. And each time RJ was asked this question he replied something like "There will be at least three more books".

 

Yes, exactly right. And exactly my point. There was always 3 more! No matter how many new ones he wrote. As I said, stringing it out until discontent grew too big to ignore.

 

As to your point about having to cut too much out and edit the story too much to fit it back to 6 books. You obviously didn't read what I actually said. Yes, now it would be impossible, but I would love to see somebody's efforts of squeezing all the best stuff into 6-7 books. But my point was that early on in the series it was very achievable. 6 books is still a giant series!

 

As to your examples of other long series, the discworld novels are standalone! It gives readers a chance to buy individual novels. Tolkein did it the right way by publishing numerous books after the main series that covered smaller characters or lesser events. This gave people a good, tight story, but also die hard fans the chance to learn more.

 

Once RJ and Tor had readers hooked, they played on this. You are right with POD being a bestseller. This only helped foster the stringing out. By then the series had gained enough readers and attention that the books were bestsellers. But you will also note that around this time, the level of fan discontent also rose dramatically, and that most people had the broad view that whilst they loved a lot of things with the series, the continual stretching out, repetition, padding, over description, etc also drove them nuts.