Who's Who In the Black Ajah Hearts/Council

[Chernabog]

First post here :)

 

Anyways, I've been mulling it over and thought it might be interesting to see if we could figure out which sisters are in which heart etc. By KoD we know the names of 26 Black sisters, but only three full hearts which are:

 

Galina Casban,Talene Mindy and Temaile Kinderode

Rianna Andomeran, Amico Nagoyin and Chesmal Emry

Atuan Larisett, Karale Sanghir and Marris Thornhill

 

We also know that only some sisters have a one other. The one others we know of are

 

Amico knows Liandrin and Galina knows Alviarin.

 

Moving forward, we also know two who are confirmed not to be in the same heart, Elza and Fera. So that leaves 17 sisters to be placed in hearts. In KoD I think we are given evidence that a fourth heart consists of:

 

Careane, Marillin and Ispan.

 

I lump Ispan in this heart simply because she was connected to Careane (being murdered by her). I don't really remember the books this takes place in, but I assume Careane knew Ispan was Black Ajah before she fled the WT in book 3 and takes her out to silence her. My reasoning behind her knowing Ispan before she left the WT was that the Aes Sedai didn't seem to be fully on top of things when that happened (my memory is again fuzzy on the details). It seemed like some sisters, or most didn't really remember the events or perhaps connect what happened to the Black Ajah.

 

Moving on, Marillin says to the others in KoD that if they're going to kill the others they should leave Careane alone since she's one of us. How would she know that unless they were in the same heart?

 

As for the Council of 13 all we really know is that Alviarin is the head of it and Galina was the second in command? That leaves 11 spots open and I wouldn't doubt it if those spots were filled by Black Ajah members we already know.

 

Any thoughts or ideas on who else is in what heart?

[Gentled Ben]

I think that if Ispan knew Careane was BA, she would have told Vandene and Adeleas, yet there's nothing to suggest that she cast any suspicions on other sisters in their group. It might be more likely that Ispan was Careane's "one other."

[Treblkickd]

Isn't it likely that one of the BA's own oaths (if I remember correctly they replace the original 3 oaths with a "new trinity") something to the effect of "I will not reveal any information about who else is BA"?  Thus, the only way that you can get useful BA info is to make them un-swear all oaths (as Pevara and Co. are having them do) first.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Isn't it likely that one of the BA's own oaths (if I remember correctly they replace the original 3 oaths with a "new trinity") something to the effect of "I will not reveal any information about who else is BA"?  Thus, the only way that you can get useful BA info is to make them un-swear all oaths (as Pevara and Co. are having them do) first.

 

That seems quite likely.

 

[Gentled Ben]

lol yeah, that would make a lot of sense.  :-[

[Elgee]

Interesting topic!

 

 

We also know that only some sisters have a one other.

 

Are you sure? I seem to recall something along the lines of "Each knew only the sisters in her own Heart, and one other."

 

 

[Obligatory WOT Reference]

Interesting topic!

 

 

We also know that only some sisters have a one other.

 

Are you sure? I seem to recall something along the lines of "Each knew only the sisters in her own Heart, and one other."

 

 

 

It kind of makes sense for contingency purposes for all black ajah to know one person outside of their heart. If both of the other people in your heart were killed and you knew no one else, who do you go for instructions/info/the weekly black ajah magazine with the crossword you like?

[mb]

This page lists all known Black Ajah:

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/organizations/aes_sedai/black.html

The ones yet to be discovered are excluded.

 

[Chernabog]

Points to the link, that's actually where I got all my information from ;)

 

As for the the "One Other" It seems a bit unclear, since I remember reading somewhere on the Encyclopaedia that only some Black Sisters have a one other, but at the same time I was given the impression all Sisters had a one other.

 

Ah, here it is

 

CoT,Prologue - The Black Ajah is organized in hearts of three members who know the true allegiance of each other. In addition, some cell members know an outside contact as well.

 

Note the highlight, *some* cell members which means not everyone could have a one other. There's also these two quotes for the hearts.

 

TSR,Ch5 - Most Black Ajah sisters know the identity of only two or three other Black sisters.

 

TFoH,Ch18 - For safety's sake, Black Ajah sisters know the identity of only a few other Black sisters.

[Kaznen]

Careane knew Ispan was BA because Ispan tried to lie her way out with a pretty weak lie.

 

Carean probally killed her because that is most likely a standing rule a standing rule in the BA, if a sister is found out she must die before she can give anything up.

 

That would explain why "Slayer" ws so hot to kill the two BA in tear.

[Chernabog]

I find that hard to believe Kaz, the point about killing her so she wouldn't reveal anything.

 

If I remember correctly Ispan was still being held by the Black Ajahs oaths which prevent them from giving up anything about the sisters or plans of the Black Ajah. Unless they have the oaths removed with the oath rod, and for good measure are forced to swear new oaths like the Hunters did in the WT with Talene and Atuan (as well as Karale and Marris if they got that far).

 

Also, despite Ispans weak lie (I don't know what lie that is) that doesn't mean Careane couldn't have known she was Black Ajah before then if they were in the same heart, or if they were each others one other. But since there's no word confirmation on that it's a RAFO type of deal if we ever do find out.

 

Also, I doubt it's a rule to kill any Sisters who are found out. I mean Liandrin and co were exposed when they fled the Tower and you don't see any of them dead by the hands of a Black Sister, and Slayer hasn't killed any since Amico and Joiya in Tear which I think only happened because Amico had been stilled? which released her from the Oaths, and eventually Joiya would have been stilled and they could have given up a lot of info in Tar Valon then. The rest that were killed up to Ispan had died at the hands of the good guys IIRC. So like I said, that "rule" is rather doubtful.

[Theodor89]

This is one of the best articles I have read about the Black Ajah:

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/03/black-ajah.html

 

It contains speculations on the Black Ajah Council and their numbers. And it also contains every known Black sisters acts and current status.

[Mr Ares]

This page lists all known Black Ajah:

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/organizations/aes_sedai/black.html

The ones yet to be discovered are excluded.

You don't say? I wonder why?

[Kaznen]

I find that hard to believe Kaz, the point about killing her so she wouldn't reveal anything.

 

If I remember correctly Ispan was still being held by the Black Ajahs oaths which prevent them from giving up anything about the sisters or plans of the Black Ajah. Unless they have the oaths removed with the oath rod, and for good measure are forced to swear new oaths like the Hunters did in the WT with Talene and Atuan (as well as Karale and Marris if they got that far).

 

Also, despite Ispans weak lie (I don't know what lie that is) that doesn't mean Careane couldn't have known she was Black Ajah before then if they were in the same heart, or if they were each others one other. But since there's no word confirmation on that it's a RAFO type of deal if we ever do find out.

 

Also, I doubt it's a rule to kill any Sisters who are found out. I mean Liandrin and co were exposed when they fled the Tower and you don't see any of them dead by the hands of a Black Sister, and Slayer hasn't killed any since Amico and Joiya in Tear which I think only happened because Amico had been stilled? which released her from the Oaths, and eventually Joiya would have been stilled and they could have given up a lot of info in Tar Valon then. The rest that were killed up to Ispan had died at the hands of the good guys IIRC. So like I said, that "rule" is rather doubtful.

Amico, Joiya, and Ispan were caught, that is why they had to die.  And Joiya was telling BA plans to the wonder girls, so I don't think one of there oaths is not to reveal BA secrets.

 

And Liandrin and co weren't exposed to the AS at large that they were BA.  Only Suian was sure of it.  No other AS in the Tower at that time, including Leane, connected the sisters' disappearance with the murders.  Suian included Verin and the wonder girls because they weere out of the Tower at the time so they weren't a part of it.

 

Yes, Suian covered up the BA's crime but that is AS mindset.  Keep secrets even from each other.

[Elgee]

Yes, Suian covered up the BA's crime but that is AS mindset.  Keep secrets even from each other.

 

Apart from announcing it to all AS at once, and hoping for the best, there was no way Siuan could be sure whomever she told wasn't also BA. At best, that would send the BA so deep underground no one would be able to catch them. At worst, Siuan would have met with an "accident"

[Kaznen]

Or all AS would be looking at each other the way Suian was, thinking "is she black ajah?"

[Chernabog]

In response to Kaz:

 

- Joiya wasn't the only one giving away secrets to the Wonder Girls, that was Amico. Amico had been stilled and thus could spill the beans on Tanchico, Joiya hadn't been stilled and therefore was still bound by the BA Oaths but did tell them about the plot involving Taim. Which may or may not have been a lie, I can't remember.

 

Here's info on the Oaths they take as Black Ajah, found in page 1's link near the bottom.

 

One of the Black Ajah oaths is to not reveal the identity of any Black Sister alive or dead or any of the Black Ajah’s plans (The Path of Daggers, Into Andor). We have heard of Black sisters giving away plans no longer considered valid (Joiya and Ispan, for instance), so it isn't a blanket ban on giving away anything at all. Presumably another Oath is for allegiance or loyalty to the Dark One.

 

So moving on, who else would be in the Council? I assume there's at least 1 of each Ajah since they'd need to know what's going on in all 7, or perhaps it's set up like Liandrins group, 2 members from six ajahs. and one from the seventh Ajah?

[Kaznen]

Aside from them being able to admit to being BA we don't know what their oaths are.  We can guess and speculate all we want but the fact is we don't have enough information.

 

As far as them not reveling plans...If that is an oath is could become very problematic for them.  A BA sister, aside from their "1 other," doesn't know if the AS she is talking to is BA or privy to the plans they know if she is.

 

And Joiya did reveal current plans.  She thought the 11 who got away were heading to the Blight to free Taim.  Ispan talking about old plans could also be a desperate attempt to buy time.

 

And Ispan's weak lie I alluded to.  In PoD when the AS twins were about to question Ispan and Elyane tried to stop them because she thought she had to Ispan said that everything she did was on orders of the Amirlyn(?) Seat.

 

Elyane response was(not word for word), "You mean Suian ordered you to kill sisters, or do you mean Elaida?  Your lies are pathetic."

[Chernabog]

So Kaz, after reading your reply I couldn't help but do a /facepalm. Did you even read my post, or at the very least the quote?

 

One of the Black Ajah oaths is to not reveal the identity of any Black Sister alive or dead or any of the Black Ajah’s plans (The Path of Daggers, Into Andor). We have heard of Black sisters giving away plans no longer considered valid (Joiya and Ispan, for instance), so it isn't a blanket ban on giving away anything at all. Presumably another Oath is for allegiance or loyalty to the Dark One.

 

I'm assuming (and it would be logical) that the three Aes Sedai in each heart work on their own thing, or are given orders by the Council on what to do. It's doubtful that the hearts had any interaction with each other, it would defeat the purpose of the heart.

 

Joiya *thinks* the other 11 went to Taim. She could have been lying to the Wonder Girls, being Black Ajah and all she is able to lie. She claims Liandrin intends to free Taim, but that's a lie since Liandrin and co are actually in Tanchico (or are headed there by boat). I find it doubtful Taim was a current/vaild plan of the Black Ajah, or at least for those 13 sisters. When Taim does escape all that's mentioned is that two sisters were dead when he escaped his captors. I assume a Forsaken could have been involved in helping, it's doubtful he could have escaped on his own since he'd be shielded unless he did what Rand did in Dumai's Wells but that's a different discussion.

 

Elayne didn't try to stop them, they stopped her. She told Ispan her lies were pathetic and she wanted Adeleas and Vandene to leave her and Aviendha alone with Ispan so she could find a way to press Ispan sufficiently without breaking Tower law. Adeleas and Vandene however took over the interrogation(s).

[Kaznen]

So Kaz, after reading your reply I couldn't help but do a /facepalm. Did you even read my post, or at the very least the quote?

 

One of the Black Ajah oaths is to not reveal the identity of any Black Sister alive or dead or any of the Black Ajah’s plans (The Path of Daggers, Into Andor). We have heard of Black sisters giving away plans no longer considered valid (Joiya and Ispan, for instance), so it isn't a blanket ban on giving away anything at all. Presumably another Oath is for allegiance or loyalty to the Dark One.

 

I'm assuming (and it would be logical) that the three Aes Sedai in each heart work on their own thing, or are given orders by the Council on what to do. It's doubtful that the hearts had any interaction with each other, it would defeat the purpose of the heart.

I agree with you there for the most part.  I always took those hearts to be like terrorist cells.  There ordered to do something then they need to figure out how to do it on there own.

 

But we know it's three to a heart.  And from what the BA hunters have learned the 13 were not 4 hearts plus one but a member taken from 13 hearts.  The purpose of having these cells in the real world are so one terrorist is watched by the others in their cell so they don't go rouge.  I could be that one of Joyia's heart mates was in on the Taim plan, or one of Liandrin's and she would have said something.  But while she was planning the trip up north one of the Forsaken told her in her in TAR to go to Tanchico should Be'lal fail for a contingincecy plan.  Then she could have told Amico this.

 

Elayne didn't try to stop them, they stopped her. She told Ispan her lies were pathetic and she wanted Adeleas and Vandene to leave her and Aviendha alone with Ispan so she could find a way to press Ispan sufficiently without breaking Tower law. Adeleas and Vandene however took over the interrogation(s).

You're right, Elayne thought she had to be the one to interrigate Ispan because her and Nyneave were in charge of the AS group and her upbringing about responsiblity was "don't order something you wouldn't be willing to do yourself."  The twins pointed out they had more experence, she didn't need to do everything herself, and they had nothing better to do at the time.  I was never never trying to say any different.

 

The reason I said what I said was to use as a reference point to Ispan's lie.  You posted earlier that you didn't know what that lie was.  I was pointing it out, that's all.

[Chernabog]

I think Sedore might be a Black Sister. I'm not entirely convinced but based off what we see in TPoD Chapter 25 I think there was a subtle hint or two dropped.

 

- When the Sitters go to leave the following happens.

 

Even a Keeper with Alviarins influence did not impede Sitters. Though Velina, normally the most self-possessed woman in the Tower, flinched for some reason. Alviarin glanced once at Elaida, coolly, studied the Sitters for a moment, and understood everything.

 

"I think you should leave that with me" she said to Sedore in tones only a fraction warmer than the snow outside. "The Mother likes to consider her decrees carefully, as you know. This would not be the frist time she changed her mind after signing." She held out a slim hand.

 

Sedore, whose arrogance was notable even among Yellows, barely hesitated before giving her the leather folder.

 

So, for Sedore it's a rather out of character moment for her to do something like that. Perhaps it could just boil down to the fact the Sitters are wary around Alviarin and that she has more power over the Sitters than Elaida gives her credit for?

 

However later on during the exchange with Mesaana, we learn that Galina was the only Head of Ajah who was Black, thus showing Ferane and Suana are not Black Ajah at all. However Alviarin does note there are members amongst the Sitters when she thinks this.

That meant querying the Black sisters among the Sitters, which meant going through all the layers between them and her.

 

Of Elaida's Hall of the Tower, we can exclude a number right off the bat as potential Black Ajah.

 

- Seaine Herimon (White)

- Ferane Neheran (White, Ajah Head)

- Doesine (Yellow)

- Suana Dragand (Yellow)

- Pevara (Red)

- Yukiri (Gray)

- Saerin (Brown)

 

We also learn that Talene is Black Ajah when she is exposed. Based off this I think it's not too far of a stretch to consider Sedore, and perhaps even Velina as being Black Ajah since she as well did an out of character flinch. Or perhaps I'm reading too much into it. However, there are probably more Black Sitters than we've seen, which would make sense because having Black Sisters in positions of power could be more useful than just having them be at Aes Sedai rank.

 

Thoughts?

[Kaznen]

It could also be that since Alvarin was Keeper of the Chronicles, Sedore handed them over without comment because she didn't want to get birched for not showing proper respect to the Keeper.

 

The Keeper is second in command of the WT after all.  And only two or three BA know Alvarian is even the ajah head of the Blacks and only a few more that she is BA at all.

 

Stands to reason that she would have moved the BA that knew away from her day to day postions to prevent accidents.

[Chernabog]

I admit it could be possible because of Alviarins postion as Keeper. But I do find it interesting, I go back to the quote again on how the first line mentions a Keeper of Alviarins influence doesn't impede Sitters. It suggests to me that Alviarin isn't really that powerful of a Keeper.

 

In New Spring, Chapter 2 I believe it does mention that the Keeper is equal to Sitters outside the Hall and is generally not allowed to have any influence inside it. She's also not allowed to enter discussions in the Hall, never mind enter it without the Amyrlin.

[Kaznen]

Even if Sedore was BA she wouldn't know Alviarin was also because outside her heart only a couple people know she is one, or else the BA hunters would have found her.

 

And remember even her own heart doesn't know she is head of the BA, only one or three people on the BA council does.