Boundries Who gets What. (Rand Mat And Perrin)

[Lord Nik]

I really hope people give rand some credit for this whole thing. After TG perrin will be a king of something. Mat will be emperor. And the Dragon Reborn... who was he again? Did something I think.....

 

I just want Recognition for Rand!

[RobertAlexWillis]

I just want Recognition for Rand!

 

He'll get it.  People will just want it to be posthumous recognition.  People like their world-saving Heroes nice and heroically dead.

 

If Rand does survive, I imagine he will try to cultivate the idea that he is dead as much as he can.

[DemandredFO]

Logain will probably be remembered as the Dragon Reborn, hence the future glory.  Also the BT will not get land or at least I don't think so, I mean unlike western andor which is only part of Andor on a map; the BT is smack in the middle of Andor and and can't go anywhere.  There is always the possibility that Logain will abandon the Andoran site and go somewhere else.

[Copperfield]

I feel the black tower will move to Tar Valon, into the tower Eladia is building. First post.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Logain will probably be remembered as the Dragon Reborn, hence the future glory.

 

I doubt that history will get it THAT wrong.  But the first long-term M'hael of the Black Tower will have a larger role in shaping the next Age than the Dragon Reborn.

 

Remember, Rand will only be affecting the world for a period of about 3 years.  Three bloody important years, but still only three years.  Logain will have a career likely to span centuries, if his glory isn't a glorious death in Tarmon Gai'don.

 

Also the BT will not get land or at least I don't think so, I mean unlike western andor which is only part of Andor on a map; the BT is smack in the middle of Andor and and can't go anywhere.  There is always the possibility that Logain will abandon the Andoran site and go somewhere else.

 

Somewhere else like ... his old lands in Murandy?

 

The Black Tower is too close to Caemlyn right now.  I agree that they can't get any significant land in Andor.  But Logain already has those claims to land in Murandy, which isn't really that far from where the Black Tower is now.

 

Alternatively, there is a whole lot of open land to their south and southeast: the Hills of Kintara and Haddon Mirk.

 

I feel the black tower will move to Tar Valon, into the tower Eladia is building. First post.

 

That would be some delicious irony, I admit.  But I feel that Logain will want some space ...

 

And, welcome to the party!

[Lord Nik]

I feel the black tower will move to Tar Valon, into the tower Eladia is building. First post.

 

That would be some delicious irony, I admit.  But I feel that Logain will want some space ...

 

And, welcome to the party!

 

I think the Black Tower is going to stay right where it is.... I mean they already made the Awesome black towering* walls. What a waste if they just leave.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Thing is, they can't really build a big city there.  It's too close to Caemlyn.

 

Building the wall they have didn't take long.  They can build an even Awesomer Blacker Toweringer compound someplace else.

[Lord Nik]

Thing is, they can't really build a big city there.  It's too close to Caemlyn.

 

Building the wall they have didn't take long.  They can build an even [Awesomer Blacker Toweringer compound someplace else.

 

Very nice wording really made me laugh  ;D

 

Sigh* but I hate waste? what will be the fate of the pretty cool black walls in existence?

And I didnt think it was that close to Camylen... Isnt like a good 30 kilometers away? (number out of a hat)

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well, it wouldn't have to be a waste.

 

If Logain is smart, he'll make the Black Tower something like a guild of professional channelers.  With gateways, such a guild could have chapter offices in various countries.  The original Black Tower grounds could become the Caemlyn chapter headquarters.

[Lord Nik]

Hmm I never thought of that... I cant remember what I was going to say ontop of that so its time for  break....  ???

[Thorum]

And I didnt think it was that close to Camylen... Isnt like a good 30 kilometers away? (number out of a hat)

 

Something like 50 km is enough for 2 big cities to be apart. Like, in my area (around belgium), you can draw a line Lille - Brussels - Antwerp - Rotterdam - Amsterdam, all about 50 km from the next, and all having around 1 million inhabitants.

 

 

And yes, I was wrong on Murandy.

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Something like 50 km is enough for 2 big cities to be apart. Like, in my area (around belgium), you can draw a line Lille - Brussels - Antwerp - Rotterdam - Amsterdam, all about 50 km from the next, and all having around 1 million inhabitants

 

In modern Europe, that is true.  In Randland, not so much.  It is a comparison of apples and oranges.

 

It is not a bad idea from a logistics standpoint.  It is a bad idea from a political power-base standpoint.  Elayne isn't going to want an essentially independent Black Tower less than a day's journey from her capital.  And Logain isn't going to want a Queen trying to dictate to him from spitting distance away.

 

If there weren't lots of open land, they would probably end up fighting.  But I think Logain will use either the open land or his birth claims in Murandy to move the Black Tower.

[Muad Cheade]

I think if Rand survives, he won't be in a position of power or influence. Of the three ta'avern, I think Perrin will have the most impact after Tarmon Gai'don. As I previously said, Rand will probably be on a farm somewhere and out of the spotlight. Mat, at best, will be Tuon's personal general like her father was to her mother. He's not emperor; he's simply the consort to the Empress (I think he has a new title since the Prince of Ravens is the husband of the Daughter of the Nine Moons which Tuon is no longer...She's Empress). The Seanchan will probably not expand on Randland due to their Empress and head general with many of their troops going overseas to reconquer the Seanchan mainland (The length of the reconsolidation depends on whether the Seanchan learn how to Travel. If not, it's a long boat ride to Seanchan (the continent).

 

On a similar note, if the Seanchan can Travel and still have damane, that makes them very dangerous they can Travel to any nation's capital like Rand did with Cairhien and Caemlyn. The only other factions that would be able to are the White and Black Towers and they don't get involved in national wars.

 

Perrin, depending on how you see it, will be ruler of The Two Rivers-Gheldean or the stretch of land from Gheldean to Salidar (Alliandre will be his regent in Gheldean, Faile in Saldea). That will bring him into conflict with Elayne but that can be settled. He'd also be on friendly terms with both Andor and Seanchan-held Altara and be a buffer state for both.

 

I do think Logain's glory will come after Tarmon Gai'don. When the Servants (Aes Sedai) balance the Guardians (Asha'man). I think it makes sense for the new Black Tower to move to Elaida's new palace. I don't remember much about it but I'm sure it will be of great height or able to be built that as high as the Tower.

[CUBAREY]

Perrin, depending on how you see it, will be ruler of The Two Rivers-Gheldean or the stretch of land from Gheldean to Salidar (Alliandre will be his regent in Gheldean, Faile in Saldea). That will bring him into conflict with Elayne but that can be settled. He'd also be on friendly terms with both Andor and Seanchan-held Altara and be a buffer state for both.

 

First Perrin will be only the co-ruler of Saldea at best, in no way would he be superior to Faile in Saldea. Second Alliandre gave her pledge tp Perrin as a surrogate to Rand whether she would feel obligated to Perrin directly after the last battle is debatable as is whether Perrin would keep her to her pledge under any circumstances after the last battle. Moreover, the area between Saldea and the Two Rivers is uninhabited right now and the population of Randland will probably be significantly smaller after the last battle so how Perrin could more then claim title to that land mass is very questionable.

 

Third, friendly relations with Andor (considering Perrin would have taken both the mining areas in northwest Andor and the Two Rivers is not at all guaranteed. Neither is friendly relations with the Seanchen Empire considering his protectionest views towards Aes Sadies.

[Muad Cheade]

Perrin, depending on how you see it, will be ruler of The Two Rivers-Gheldean or the stretch of land from Gheldean to Salidar (Alliandre will be his regent in Gheldean, Faile in Saldea). That will bring him into conflict with Elayne but that can be settled. He'd also be on friendly terms with both Andor and Seanchan-held Altara and be a buffer state for both.

 

First Perrin will be only the co-ruler of Saldea at best, in no way would he be superior to Faile in Saldea. Second Alliandre gave her pledge tp Perrin as a surrogate to Rand whether she would feel obligated to Perrin directly after the last battle is debatable as is whether Perrin would keep her to her pledge under any circumstances after the last battle. Moreover, the area between Saldea and the Two Rivers is uninhabited right now and the population of Randland will probably be significantly smaller after the last battle so how Perrin could more then claim title to that land mass is very questionable.

 

Third, friendly relations with Andor (considering Perrin would have taken both the mining areas in northwest Andor and the Two Rivers is not at all guaranteed. Neither is friendly relations with the Seanchen Empire considering his protectionest views towards Aes Sadies.

 

I concede you the point on Perrin being consort to the Saldean Queen, Faile. Yet that still would add Saldea to Perrin's "kingdom" if it happens. Big if. Alliandre's oath of fealty is not debatable or questionable. She swore to be Perrin's leige-woman. Rand's name was not in her entire pledge. Plus, I doubt Gheldea's Legion of the Wall would be able to protect the nation from the Seanchan. On your point of the uninhabited lands, I think it's likely that with the defeat of the Dark One and the sealing of the Bore, the population will grow and new nations will emerge as it did after the Trolloc Wars.

 

I think you're wrong with the third point. Perrin is ta'avern (after Tarmon Gai'don he might not be) but he's also a pretty good politician even if he doesn't think so (As is his wife). I'm sure there's a ways for a peaceful compromise about north-east Andor. A deal could be that Andor could still retain a high percentage of the profits etc in return for the protection of the mines (Domanis are known to raid) or any other thing. The mines may even be destroyed in the coming battles etc. The Lord and Lady of the Two Rivers have already extended a form of control over the mines by letting prospectors mine there in return for 10% of the profits and the condition that they must also mine for iron. So a friendly relationship with Andor is not out of the question.

 

As for the Seanchan, Perrin is one of the few people who sees the Seanchan as rather honorable people and "friendly." Not only has he played a key role in dispersing one of their most dangerous problems, he is also friendly with a high-ranking general and noble (Tylee. Incidentally, I have a feeling Tylee and Mishima are going to have increased and important roles in the coming battles. Mishima did want to face Trollocs after all ;).) As for your thought that Perrin is protective of Aes Sedai, I doubt that the Seanchan will ever encounter Aes Sedai again (Except for Elayne and that would mean the Seanchan have to cross Perrin's/Alliandre's territory). It's nothing new for Aes Sedai to stay out of that area (Whitecloaks held it before). Plus, he was willing to give up the Shaido Wise Ones although he had reason to as they were his enemies.

 

One interesting thought is the effect the revelation of suldam being able to channel will have on the Seanchan. I'm rambling but I think I've defended my points well.

 

P.S. In my first quote I meant to say that "Perrin will either be ruler of the Two Rivers-Saldea or Gheldea-Two Rivers-Saldea."

[Chernabog]

I just want to touch on the Guardians balancing the Servants thing for a moment, how do we know that this doesn't/didn't just refer to/foreshadow the linking circles and bonding issues raised after the aftermath of cleansing Saidin?

 

I mean, the Aes Sedai could only link so far but with an Ashaman to help balance the circle they can extend them greatly. So am I the only one who thinks that the whole Guardians balancing the Servants refers to this instead of the Towers combining? I mean something like that could take generations, and I assume that this balancing from what I remember is supposed to happen a lot sooner than generations from now.....

[CUBAREY]

I just want to touch on the Guardians balancing the Servants thing for a moment, how do we know that this doesn't/didn't just refer to/foreshadow the linking circles and bonding issues raised after the aftermath of cleansing Saidin?

 

I mean, the Aes Sedai could only link so far but with an Ashaman to help balance the circle they can extend them greatly. So am I the only one who thinks that the whole Guardians balancing the Servants refers to this instead of the Towers combining? I mean something like that could take generations, and I assume that this balancing from what I remember is supposed to happen a lot sooner than generations from now.....

 

The Ashaman are not needed to "balance" the circles they are needed to "extend" the circles. Moreover, while the Ashaman and Aes Sedai joining might be one way to "balance" each other another way would be if they continued seperate indeed became the focal points for opposing interests that would "balance" each other out.

[Muad Cheade]

I just want to touch on the Guardians balancing the Servants thing for a moment, how do we know that this doesn't/didn't just refer to/foreshadow the linking circles and bonding issues raised after the aftermath of cleansing Saidin?

 

I mean, the Aes Sedai could only link so far but with an Ashaman to help balance the circle they can extend them greatly. So am I the only one who thinks that the whole Guardians balancing the Servants refers to this instead of the Towers combining? I mean something like that could take generations, and I assume that this balancing from what I remember is supposed to happen a lot sooner than generations from now.....

 

The Ashaman are not needed to "balance" the circles they are needed to "extend" the circles. Moreover, while the Ashaman and Aes Sedai joining might be one way to "balance" each other another way would be if they continued seperate indeed became the focal points for opposing interests that would "balance" each other out.

 

Yeah, you're right. Only when the Aes Sedai actually acknowledge the Asha'man will things get better. Aes Sedai must also tell the world that saidin is clean or else everyone will still fear any man who can channel.

[smallfox]

When is it eactly? His blood on the rocks? How does that state for certain that he dies at Tarmon gai'don?

 

First of all, I'm pretty sure that Luckers was saying that prophecy stated that Rand would live.

 

But the distinction is ultimately moot, because one Foretelling covers both death and life.

 

Nicola's Foretelling that "he who is dead yet lives".  That refers to Rand.  The grammar is unclear, probably because it is describing some type of paradox (either between Rand's body and Rand's soul, or a time based paradox).  But given that Foretelling, and the Aelfinn's atatement that "To live you must die," it seems clear that, in one way or another, Rand will do both.  In what order, and in what specific way, is the source of much debate.

 

I think that when he is fighting the last battle, he'll let Lews Therin have control of his body, so it will be Lews that dies and not him. (I think that Lews will have a cognizant set of moments brought on by the battle and Rand will realize that he can't win alone and let Lews help.) Then, Rand will live and fulfill the prophecy.

 

A lot of people are forgetting that this is the WHEEL of time, and the circumstances of the story are cyclical. Randland is building towards a time where all hell breaks loose, but then they have to rebuild, gain stability and forget about the breaking, so that it can happen all over again. So, eventually, they have to recreate the Age of Legends. I think that there will be turmoil for awhile, but eventually, everything has to settle down, so innovation can take place.

[smallfox]

I also think that the Ashaman will move to the tower being built in Tar Valon. It fits with the cyclical nature of the story. When the time of the breaking comes again, the men need to be in Tar Valon with the women and working together.

 

Also, we are forgetting about Nynaeve and her plan to make Lan a Boarderlord again. It is quite possible, once the Crane is flying, that the Boarderlands will swear fealty to him. Saldea aside.

[RobertAlexWillis]

A lot of people are forgetting that this is the WHEEL of time, and the circumstances of the story are cyclical. Randland is building towards a time where all hell breaks loose, but then they have to rebuild, gain stability and forget about the breaking, so that it can happen all over again. So, eventually, they have to recreate the Age of Legends. I think that there will be turmoil for awhile, but eventually, everything has to settle down, so innovation can take place.

 

and

 

I also think that the Ashaman will move to the tower being built in Tar Valon. It fits with the cyclical nature of the story. When the time of the breaking comes again, the men need to be in Tar Valon with the women and working together.

 

The Asha'man and Aes Sedai of the Fourth Age are not the ones who re-create the Age of Legends.  At some point between the end of these books and the recreation of the Age of Legends for the next turning, the ability to channel has to disappear completely, be forgotten, and reappear later.  So, the Asha'man moving to Tar Valon or not has nothing to do with the recreation of the Age of Legends.

 

Also, we are forgetting about Nynaeve and her plan to make Lan a Boarderlord again. It is quite possible, once the Crane is flying, that the Boarderlands will swear fealty to him. Saldea aside.

 

Nynaeve has no plan to make Lan a "Boarderlord".  She's just trying to keep him alive through Tarmon Gai'don.

 

Malkier is dead, and will not rise again.  Lan will not accept an Oath of fealty from anyone.

[Muad Cheade]

Malkier is dead. Lan has had decades to have tried to do so and he refused. It would have been easier to resurrect Malkier during the events of New Spring in stead of "now," because now, the Shadow is very active.

 

Lan is raising an army because he realized what the Borderlander kings and queens and Rand haven't really realized: Tarmon Gai'don starts in the Blight. He's making a very smart move to ride to Tarwin's Gap, and I think that he's going to end up helping stop the Shadow's first thrust. I think he and his army but up a brave fight but I'm not sure if they win or simply just halt the Shadowspawn army for word to spread.

 

Nynaeve simply wants her husband to have a better chance to live.

 

I also think that the Ashaman will move to the tower being built in Tar Valon. It fits with the cyclical nature of the story. When the time of the breaking comes again, the men need to be in Tar Valon with the women and working together.

 

Also, we are forgetting about Nynaeve and her plan to make Lan a Borderlord again. It is quite possible, once the Crane is flying, that the Borderlands will swear fealty to him. Saldea aside.

 

Does the prophecy actually say that after Tarmon Gai'don there will be a second Breaking? I'm not sure about that. The Asha'man move to Tar Valon might be after the Last Battle when the "guardians balance the servants." Also, I don't think Tar Valon in its current form will be the same as that of after Tarmon Gai'don. Remember the Seanchan are going to attack and also there have been numerous statements about the Tower being mankind's sharpest sword and the Shadow wanting to destroy it. Plus, the name is changed to Great Arvalon in the Fourth Age.