the Gay Relationships in TWoT

[arkinia]

Anyone take any interest into the apparent presence of gay relationships in The Wheel of Time?

 

The more obvious one is the one between Ailil and Shalon revealed under the cover of the more or less subtle title of "pillow-friends." I've also read posts mentioning the activities of the young women in the White Tower in the New Spring (which I haven't read yet, though this makes me all the more anxious to).

 

More recently, though, I was reading Crossroads of Twilight and in chapter 9 (Traps) I came across another relationship, possibly, between Therava and Galina. It is told that they are sharing a tent together, which I at first passed up as negligible, but then, later, through Faile's point of view we read:

 

"Galina was pretty, but nowhere near beautiful, and Faile did not understand what Thereva saw in her, unless it was simply the pleasure of dominating an Aes Sedai. That still left the question of why the woman remained when Therava seemed to take every opportunity to humiliate her."

 

To me, having experienced the subtlety RJ likes to imbue most things sexual in the series, this just screams that Therava and Galina were in some sort of relationship. Note the bold text.

 

Has anyone noticed any other gay relationships RJ might have slipped in? All the ones I  have noticed so far are all between women. Anyone take notice of any evidence of relationships between men?

 

What reasons do you think you RJ had for writing these in? Was it merely to add spice or realism to the rich world he had created? Did RJ have any friends that were gay? Is he trying to tell us something?

 

Discuss.

 

Finally, I feel it is necessary to apologize to anyone I might have offended or made feel uncomfortable with the topic.

[Perrin 187]

Most of them are Lesbian relationships and are in the White tower or in aeil culture. I could see possible male homosexual relationships comin up in the Black Tower, but we found out from Grady that the Wives and girlfriends of asha men or training asha men are allowed in the Black Tower. So I can't see more then maybe a few homosexual relationships in there, no more than any other place. However I believe the aeil have a high precentage of both homosexual gender relationships. But we don't quite know anything about the Seanchan on this matter.

 

RJ and BS,(from what I've heard) aren't very sexually explicit and leave more to the imagination. Than other fantsy writers like Martin, This subject has already been discussed many times anyway. 

[Sirayn]

I've often wondered whether all pillow friends are necessarily romantically and/or sexually involved. The term pillow friends sounds so innocent, and it's not unusual for young girls (bearing in mind that the Tower doesn't allow girls to mature emotionally and take on responsibility until they advance through the ranks) to share a bed in a literal, platonic sense.

 

On the one hand those two women who were caught in bed together, I forget their names, were described as pillow friends in an obviously sexual context. On the other, Moiraine and Siuan were pillow friends and the Moiraine PoV when meeting Siuan early on in the series showed no hint of a past sexual relationship. You'd think that with the exhaustive detail of the narrative the fact that they'd had sex would have been mentioned.

 

Just a thought.

[Osan`gar]

i recall that in one of the novels that elaida, as amyrlin, said to her keeper that she was once a pillow friend with one of the moles who returned to the tower when they were both novices. i forget which one. she also said after she found out about the woman being a mole that she had been approaching elaida in an effort to renue the relationship. elaida further stated that she was considering it so that she could try to use the relationship to her advanyage.

[looper]

I'll just leave this here. :)

“Pillow friends are not just good friends. Oh, they are that, too, but they also get hot and sweaty together and muss up the sheets something fierce. By the way, pillow friends is a term used in the White Tower. The same relationship between men or women elsewhere would be called something else, depending on the country.”

-- Robert Jordan's Blog

[xntric]

It took me a few re-reads to understand the term "Pillow Friends". In Australia, we use Pillow Talk to mean sharing sexual stories and advice with someone close. So it never occurred to me that pillow friends go beyond pillow talk  :P

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

I always thought that Aram seemed a bit too fond of Perrin.  Doesn't really count as  a homosexual relationship since Perrin did not reciprocate, but I suspect that Aram had those feelings.

[xntric]

I always thought that Aram seemed a bit too fond of Perrin.  Doesn't really count as  a homosexual relationship since Perrin did not reciprocate, but I suspect that Aram had those feelings.

Unlikely.. Aram was very fond of girls in tEotW, especially towards Egwene. He saw Perrin as his savior/central figure after he abandoned the Way of the Leaf.

[looper]

Wasn't he also quite protective of Faile too?

[Eleint]

Unlikely.. Aram was very fond of girls in tEotW, especially towards Egwene. He saw Perrin as his savior/central figure after he abandoned the Way of the Leaf.

 

It is possible to be bisexual you know.  I don't really read his behavior towards Perrin that way, but nevertheless.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

I always thought that Aram seemed a bit too fond of Perrin.  Doesn't really count as  a homosexual relationship since Perrin did not reciprocate, but I suspect that Aram had those feelings.

Unlikely.. Aram was very fond of girls in tEotW, especially towards Egwene. He saw Perrin as his savior/central figure after he abandoned the Way of the Leaf.

 

Not necessarly, the Tinkers are a backward sort of people who are into being good and pure.  Its likely that they didn't exactly cotton to the idea of homosexualty.  Since Aram had been taught his whole life that homosexuallity was bad, the repressed his feelings and over compensated by chasing everything in a skirt.  Once he'd left the Tinkers he was finally free to be himself.  The reason he was so into Egwene in EtoW was to hide the fact that it was really Perrin that he was attracted to (LOL)

[42Bonzo88]

    The only gay relationship (males) that I have heard of in WOT was with the Athan Mier. I think its in The Shadow Rising, but I could be wrong.

[Eleint]

Not necessarly, the Tinkers are a backward sort of people who are into being good and pure.  Its likely that they didn't exactly cotton to the idea of homosexualty.  Since Aram had been taught his whole life that homosexuallity was bad, the repressed his feelings and over compensated by chasing everything in a skirt.  Once he'd left the Tinkers he was finally free to be himself.  The reason he was so into Egwene in EtoW was to hide the fact that it was really Perrin that he was attracted to (LOL)

 

Arguing this simply because I'm feeling pedantic and it's a peeve when people assume contemporary Western values are the only ones out there.  In less than half, and according to many figures, less than a third of historical cultures was homosexuality a major issue.  Sometimes it was even commonly accepted.  Abrahamic religions such as Christianity are known for issues, mostly due to (many think) the body taboos of Judaism which evolved.

 

Basically, Tinkers are not Christians.  There's no reason that they'd find it wrong and in fact Jordan's said that in Randland in general homosexuality is an accepted practice.  Cadsuane was surprised that those two nobles were so afraid to reveal their affair, because it's just not something people care about.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

The smuggler who takes Nynaeve and Elayne to Salidar might be homosexual.

Neres disliked women...Nynaeve had never encountered the like. Oh, she had heard men mutter about women and money, as if men did not fling coin about like water—they just had no head for money, less than Elayne—and she had even heard them lay various troubles to women, usually when it was they themselves who had caused all the bother. But she could not recall ever meeting a man who truly disliked women. It was a surprise to learn that Neres had a wife and a horde of children in Ebou Dar, but no surprise that he stayed at home only long enough to load a new cargo. He did not even want to talk to a woman. It was simply amazing. Sometimes Nynaeve found herself looking at him sideways, the way she would have at some incredible animal. Far stranger than s’redit, or anything else in Luca’s menagerie.

Remember that guy?  The behavior is not stereotypically homosexual, but relationships are put on their heads in Randland.  Just because he's married doesn't mean he isn't homosexual.

[Luckers]

Not necessarly, the Tinkers are a backward sort of people who are into being good and pure.  Its likely that they didn't exactly cotton to the idea of homosexualty.  Since Aram had been taught his whole life that homosexuallity was bad, the repressed his feelings and over compensated by chasing everything in a skirt.  Once he'd left the Tinkers he was finally free to be himself.  The reason he was so into Egwene in EtoW was to hide the fact that it was really Perrin that he was attracted to (LOL)

 

You have no knowledge of what their beliefs about purity are--and nothing to suggest that homosexuality is precluded in that. Indeed, given they dance the sa'sara I'd say that have a fairly free concept of sexuality.

 

Your mistake seems to be in assuming that a 'backward' folk wanting to be 'good and pure' would ascribed to the christian tennants to the point. Christian ideology does not exist within this world, and based on the casual disreguard most characters have to homosexuality I'd say the cultural perception of it is far from negative.

 

Consider Verin's comments to Cadsuane.

 

Soon after the Sea Folk first arrived here, Ailii approached Shalon hoping to learn what they wanted with young al'Thor. For her part, Shalon wanted to learn whatever she could about him, and about the situation here. That led to meetings, which led to friendship, which led to them becoming pillow friends. As much from loneliness as anything else, I suspect. In any case, that was what they were hiding more than their mutual snooping."

 

"They put up with days under the question to hide that?" Cadsuane said incredulously. Bera and Kiruna had had the pair howling!

 

Verin's eyes twinkled with suppressed mirth. "Cairhienin are prim and prudish, Cadsuane, in public at least. They might carry on like rabbits when the curtains are drawn, but theywouldn't admit to ouching their own husbands if anyone might overhear! And the Sea Folk are almost as straitlaced. At least, Shalon is married to a man with duties elsewhere, and breaking marriage vows is a very serious crime. A breach of proper discipline, it seems. If her sister found out, Shalon would be—'Windfinder on a rowboat,' I think her exact words were."

 

There is not even the hint that they should be ashamed because it was a same-sex liason. Ailil was embarressed becaused sex itself was taboo in conversation, and Shalon because she'd broken her marriage vows, but that it was a woman they were sleeping with--not even the slightest understanding. Cadsuane is incredulous.

 

Were such a perception of homosexuality present anywhere Cadsuane would not have acted that way. You said the Tinkers were 'backward'--by which you mean ascribing to the the older puritan ideologies that ruled the cultures of the time, which were being ignored by the decadent city folk...

 

Sorry dude, but homosexuality ain't one of them.

 

The only gay relationship (males) that I have heard of in WOT was with the Athan Mier. I think its in The Shadow Rising, but I could be wrong.

 

Moiraine mentions male clerks being dismissed by Sierin Vayu for 'inappropriate behaviour towards novices and Accepted' in New Spring, including men who had no interest in women at all.

[arkinia]

Yeah, pillow-friends is definitely sexual. Lack of evidence is not evidence of the opposite. If pillow-friends was not sexual why wouldn't RJ have used a term like roommate or something? Then there's that blogpost of course.

 

I also forgot about Aram. I did find his behavior and the scents Perrin got from him peculiar... Almost too protective...

[Luckers]

RJ stated pillow friends was sexual. That's already been quoted in this thread.

[Sirayn]

Thanks for the clarification. I guess I find it hard to understand why Moiraine's PoV when she's talking to Siuan wouldn't be coloured by the fact that they had a sexual relationship. That's kind of important. ???

[Luckers]

It's been twenty years. You are also perhaps judging their relationship in the reality of our current cultural viewpoint. For us, dallying with the same sex would seem a big thing. You must keep in mind that in the culture of the story it is not. Moiraine and Siuan were not, strictly speaking, gay. They enjoyed sexual relief as a part of their friendship, but by all descriptions in the story they did fancy women--for all that they loved each other.

 

This type of relationship is unknown today, but historically was commen. It's sort of like 'friends with benefits' without being so crass. This was not just about fulfilling sexual needs, it was a genuine physical relationship, resulting from a genuine emotional connection, but was not, as such, love.

 

The strict christian tennants of modern culture, even progressive modern culture, cannot percieve this. It is outside to scope of modern understanding, but once upon a time it was very common.

[Delirium]

Thanks for the clarification. I guess I find it hard to understand why Moiraine's PoV when she's talking to Siuan wouldn't be coloured by the fact that they had a sexual relationship. That's kind of important. ???

 

Well, Sian DID know exactly where and how to touch Moiraine the the Power to distract her when she was practicing for her test for the shawl.

 

Siuan liked to use tickles at the worst possible moment, sudden pokes in unpleasant places, embarrassing caresses and starling noises.

[Sirayn]

You are also perhaps judging their relationship in the reality of our current cultural viewpoint. For us, dallying with the same sex would seem a big thing. You must keep in mind that in the culture of the story it is not. Moiraine and Siuan were not, strictly speaking, gay. They enjoyed sexual relief as a part of their friendship, but by all descriptions in the story they did fancy women--for all that they loved each other.

 

This type of relationship is unknown today, but historically was commen. It's sort of like 'friends with benefits' without being so crass. This was not just about fulfilling sexual needs, it was a genuine physical relationship, resulting from a genuine emotional connection, but was not, as such, love.

 

The strict christian tennants of modern culture, even progressive modern culture, cannot percieve this. It is outside to scope of modern understanding, but once upon a time it was very common.

 

I'm not sure why you think modern people can't have casual sex with a person of the same gender while their sexuality remains fluid. It's perfectly normal in some subcultures (like mine), not all of which adhere to the traditional beliefs of western Christian culture.

 

My point is that when you have or have had a sexual relationship with someone, you interact with them differently. That's not contingent on either party's gender or the level of romantic commitment past or present. It's just something that is in the back of your mind. Perhaps I'm wrong in this view.

[naxxan]

lovin abound:

"For jofraz, I have gay and Lesbian characters in my books, but the only time it has really come into the open is with the Aes Sedai because I haven’t been inside the heads of any other characters who are either gay or bi.  For the most part, in this world such things are taken as a matter of course.  Remember, Cadsuane is surprised that Shalon and Ailil were so hot to hide that they had been sharing a bed even knowing how prim and proper Cairhienin are on the surface.  Well, for many it is just on the surface."  Jordan's blog Oct 6th 2005.

[Luckers]

I'm not sure why you think modern people can't have casual sex with a person of the same gender while their sexuality remains fluid. It's perfectly normal in some subcultures (like mine), not all of which adhere to the traditional beliefs of western Christian culture.

 

I'm not saying they can't have casual sex--but then there is nothing casual about the sex between Moiraine an Siuan. This specific inclusion of sex in close friendship is not something that occurs in modern culture. We are not speaking of friends who have sex as a sexual outlet, we are speaking of sex as being a function of friendship.

[Builder]

You are also perhaps judging their relationship in the reality of our current cultural viewpoint. For us, dallying with the same sex would seem a big thing. You must keep in mind that in the culture of the story it is not. Moiraine and Siuan were not, strictly speaking, gay. They enjoyed sexual relief as a part of their friendship, but by all descriptions in the story they did fancy women--for all that they loved each other.

 

This type of relationship is unknown today, but historically was commen. It's sort of like 'friends with benefits' without being so crass. This was not just about fulfilling sexual needs, it was a genuine physical relationship, resulting from a genuine emotional connection, but was not, as such, love.

 

The strict christian tennants of modern culture, even progressive modern culture, cannot percieve this. It is outside to scope of modern understanding, but once upon a time it was very common.

 

I'm not sure why you think modern people can't have casual sex with a person of the same gender while their sexuality remains fluid. It's perfectly normal in some subcultures (like mine), not all of which adhere to the traditional beliefs of western Christian culture.

 

My point is that when you have or have had a sexual relationship with someone, you interact with them differently. That's not contingent on either party's gender or the level of romantic commitment past or present. It's just something that is in the back of your mind. Perhaps I'm wrong in this view.

 

Wow what sub-culture are you part of that doesn't prohibit sex of the same gender? As far as I know I don't know any culture who doesn't have anything against homosexuality...

 

Back on topic though. I just wanted to ask her that :/

[Luckers]

Builder, by definition a sub-culture is a subset within a pre-existing culture, and there are many sub-cultures that are ok with homosexual relationships--the homosexual one, for instance.

 

That being said there are cultures in the modern world that have no prescriptions against homosexuality--admittedly, and tragically, these are minor cultures, often tribal, but they exist.