Inner Fighting between Ta'veern and friends

[Perrin 187]

I see 4 major potential conflicts between the good guys that I'd like to here your thoughts on?

 

Gawyn, Rand and Eggy.

Gawyn thinks Rand killed his mother and is currently siding with Elaida in the White Tower Civil War. But I don't think this is as serious as the other three since all that Gawyn has to do is find out his mother is alive and that Elaida been holding Egwene as a prisoner. But none the less this still has to be adrresed since Gawyn does command Elaida's elite troops. The "Younglings".

 

Seanchan's and Rand.

Rand has been fighting them and bloody them on many occasions but will need there help agianst the Shadow. I know Mat is Married to Tuon but they have seperated and he has to save Moriane. So any negoitations between the two would be without Mat. And many of the Seanchans including Tuon don't even believe in shadowspawn so I don't think that this will be a cake walk. Also The Seanchan empire is in chaos.

 

Perrin and Elayne over the Two Rivers.

Perrin and Elayne have only met twice. Once at Falme and the other time in Tear. They are pretty much strangers to each other. And Perrin has seceded the Two Rivers from Andor. Elayne can't just give it up and likely wouldn't. Her mother Morgase became very angry when she heard that that the Two Rivers seceded. Even though Elayne has just fought a civil war. She has united the country and her regular army numbers about 40000-50000 and god knows how many militia troops she could call in to add on to that giant already giant number. The nobles don't like Perrin and would be confident as Elayne would be in fighting 5000-6000 militia troops,(estimated Two Rivers army at Malden) with Longbows and a handful of aeil. Ghealden is a protectorate of Perrins but it has been ravaged by Seanchan, Shadio, Whitecloaks, and The Prohept. I'd say they could only raise an army of 10000, mostly of militia. But Perrin could turn the released Gaishan into an army, he has enough soldiers and Warders to train them but that takes time so their not an option. Faile does have very close ties to Saldea but why would the Bashere House bring all of Saldea into a conflict with Andor over a small farming province. So they are a maybe and thats stretching it. But isn't the Cha Faile made up of Cairhen Nobles many of them from major houses, They could prove useful. I don't know about you but I think their could be some real conflict hear and their is no easy way to settle it. Elayne can't lose what already little support she has among most of the nobles, in doing what they would think as appeasement by just handing the TR over,(And I don't think it is Elaynes character to do that either, especially since she is preganant and that could effect her judgement, being stupid is what got her almost killed and many other people killed in KOD). And The Two Rivers populace never thought of themselves as subjects to the queen of Andor and share no love for it,(especially since many in the Two Rivers are now Tarabons and Domani).

 

The Borderland Army.

I think there more to them then the 13 Aes sedai wanting to gentle Rand. Do the Monarchs know of the possible intentions of these Aes sedai? There are just alot of ifs flying around and I don't think its as simple as the 13 Aes Sedai wanting to gentle Rand. Maybe its a coincidence that there are all thirteen Aes Sedai? Its a small chance that all Aes sedia advisors of the Borderlands are Black ajah. I think it is much more likely that they are all loyal to Eladia. And after Dumai Well we all know of Elaida's intention towards Rand. And if they were darkfriends I would be dissapointed. Since in reality if the Shadow had spies that close to the monarchs then the Borderlands would have been swallowed up by the Blight by now.

 

 

Sorry for the long read, just thought that these were pretty intersting conflicts and I haven't even mention the shadow or Tariom Gaidon. I'm finally realising how hard its gonna be for Brandon to write three huge books resolving all of these things and also numerous other plot lines.

 

Anyway discuss.

 

 

 

 

 

[Charlz Guybon]

Perrin will end up ruling Saldea, 1,000 miles away from the Two Rivers and he has sworn to not restore Manetheren. I think that situation will be worked out without much bloodshed if any.

 

The Borderlanders though, I think a significant portion of those Aes Sedai, if not all of them are Black Ajah.

 

 

[Eleint]

And yet the ruler of Ghealdan the area SE of Two Rivers is his liegewoman.

 

I think he's going to take the Broken Crown of Saldaea add Two Rivers and Ghealdan to Saldaea, and end up with a big land.  All without raising the banner of Manetheren.

 

As for Andor, Elayne won't like it but there's not much she can do.  Pre-TG, too much stuff.  Post-TG?  Good luck.  The Saldaeans will make mincemeat of her men.  She acknowledges it herself at one point.  You don't screw with Borderlanders, they don't play with war, they fight constantly verses trollocs and such.

[luftstark]

I think that Gawyn and Rand are not going to face each other. That's coz ... if Gawyn chooses Elaida, he will face the SAS army and if, for a miracle, he survives, he won't have a change to get close to Rand. If he chooses Egwene, all ends well and he won't do anything hasty coz he's in love.

[Charlz Guybon]

And yet the ruler of Ghealdan the area SE of Two Rivers is his liegewoman.

 

I think he's going to take the Broken Crown of Saldaea add Two Rivers and Ghealdan to Saldaea, and end up with a big land.  All without raising the banner of Manetheren.

 

 

The logistics of it are impossible. The Seanchan conquests are all contiguious and populated. Cairhien is rest next to the heart of Andor. Saldea is seperated from the Two Rivers by a thousand miles of uninhabited land.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Assuming there aren't huge changes in the face of the land with the Last Battle, Perrin would probably be undisputed ruler or co-ruler of everything from Maradon to Jehannah.  He would be a good buffer ruler between the Seanchan ruled lands of the south-west and the rest of Randland, given his ties of friendship to the Prince of the Ravens and respectful association with their newest rising military general, Tylee Khirgan.  I imagine that Perrin-land will be a popular place to emigrate to in a post Tarmon Gai'don world, and that repopulating the empty lands between Baerlon and southern Saldaea will be accomplished in a few generations.  Given the excellent forest and the newly formed and patiently waiting Lake Logoth, it is prime land for settlement.

 

The logistics are far from impossible.

 

I'm betting that Elayne puts Cairhien and Andor together, and lets Perrin have what is now western Andor.  She gets the Erinin/Alguenya/Aiel trade, he gets the Manetherendrelle/Arinelle/Seanchan trade.  Whitebridge actually becomes a real trade center. That kind of trade-off for land that hadn't paid taxes to Caemlyn in a long time anyway would be shrewd politically; it makes her look generous, while she is still actually increasing her power (Cairhien is still worth more than the Two Rivers) and cementing a post Tarmon Gai'don alliance, and she doesn't have to worry about the Seanchan.

 

She might pout and mutter about what is "rightfully part of Andor", but if Perrin approaches it right (and his temperament is right for that, as long as Elayne and Faile don't get into it) I think she'll see the advantages and go for it.

[Kaznen]

Post-TG will be greatly different then Pre-TG.  Everyone seems to think that when the last battle is finished everyone will be able to pick up and get back to "business as usual" even through after Hawkwing and the Trolloc Wars (which will seems like skirmishes compared to TG) the world was remade.

 

All the little snippets from the "4th age" at the beginning of the books also imply things will be different.

[Perrin 187]

I just think it way to unrealistic that all of the Aes sedia advisors to the borderlands are Black ajah, the shadow would have conquered most of the borderlands by now. Its more logical that Elaida is behind it, and maybe she has the support of the borderland rulers,(if anybod could remind me of who the borderland rulers support please do). Although the shadow would want a spy to help against obstacle #1 the borderlands. So maybe 2 or 3, but all 13 no way.

 

And I know there are 50,000 Saldeans in the 200,000 man army of the borderlands in Andor but, I just can't see 17 year old Faile who ran away from Saldea to become a hunter of the horn and married somebody without Tenobia the queens approval,(I would think she would want a say in the matter of who the future King is) why would she want to commit her country in a war with Andor on the brink of the Last battle over a farming province. Not that I think its likely a full scale war would occur between Elayne and Perrin. Rand wouldn't allow his Best friend and pregaent lover to go at it and Perrin isn't the kind of guy to egg Elayne on. But it just I think more will happen then some treaty and Koom ba yah. Possibly Some of the more hotheaded lords or lady would do something stupid. But maybe I'm just thinking too much into it.

 

Perrin could easilly annex the uncontested land between his kingdoms and unite them and build some road network its not that hard. It isn't like the constantly changing border claims between Murandy and Andor or Tear and Illian.

 

Galad I think will rule Caihren and fall for Berelain and marry her and give her country shelter from Tear and Illian. I think after TG this action may force Tear and Illian to possibly overcome their grudges and form a breif Alliance to take on Caihren and Maynne.

 

Their is alot of room for more books written about Post TG world. Since even after the final book nothing will be peaceful and conflict will ensue.

 

[Lord Nik]

On topic.. Kindof...

 

I was so mad when Perrin said he wont raise Manetheren. I thought the whole build up with the epic stories about Manetheren, Blood strong in two rivers bla bla blah was just paving a way for the fallen kingdom to rise again and kick some... butt...

 

He's one of my favourite characters but does anyone Perrin will just be like, oh yea I said I wasnt going to raise Manetheren but.. Surprise!

Red eagle banner flying again*

 

or will he just be all "I didnt raise Manetheren again"

Wolf Head Flag Getting Raised*

 

Because That wont be Manetheren but Perrin still gets a chunk of Land for himself ;D

[RobertAlexWillis]

Everyone seems to think that when the last battle is finished everyone will be able to pick up and get back to "business as usual" even through after Hawkwing and the Trolloc Wars (which will seems like skirmishes compared to TG) the world was remade

 

The difference between Tarmon Gai'don and those other conflicts is that Tarmon Gai'don will not last 300 to 350 years.  Some people who were alive at the beginning of it will still be alive at the end of it.  So, while everything won't necessarily be the same, there will be a certain degree of continuity.  Tarmon Gai'don is a different kind of battle.

 

I just think it way to unrealistic that all of the Aes sedia advisors to the borderlands are Black ajah, the shadow would have conquered most of the borderlands by now.

 

The 13 Aes Sedai with the Borderlanders are not the advisors to the Borderland rulers.  Only one of them is.  Coladara Sedai is Paitar Nachiman's advisor.  She just happened to have seven others Sisters visiting her at the time (for some unknown reason) when the decision was made to go south.  Tenobia left her advisor, Memara Sedai, behind, but just happened across 5 more on her way south, who basically joined up without asking.  Easar's advisor Aisling and Ethenielle's advisor Nianh left suddenly when the Tower split.

 

In short, 12 of the 13 are not advisors to the Borderland rulers.  They just happened to pop up in time to come south with them.  And no one knew there were 13 until they met up and it was too late to turn back, really.

 

Assuming Black Ajah/Demandred's machinations are behind the distrustful gathering we've seen, then what they've done is tantamount to conquering the Borderlands, if Rand doesn't get those guys turned around and back up to the Blight.  The Borderlands are stripped to the bare minimum.  If the Trollocs invade in force, the entire Borderlands could be overrun in mere days.

[Kaznen]

Everyone seems to think that when the last battle is finished everyone will be able to pick up and get back to "business as usual" even through after Hawkwing and the Trolloc Wars (which will seems like skirmishes compared to TG) the world was remade

 

The difference between Tarmon Gai'don and those other conflicts is that Tarmon Gai'don will not last 300 to 350 years.  Some people who were alive at the beginning of it will still be alive at the end of it.  So, while everything won't necessarily be the same, there will be a certain degree of continuity.  Tarmon Gai'don is a different kind of battle.

Hawkwing's empire lasted about fourty years, give or take, and the turmoil after his death lasted 120 years.  And during that time their was a formation of a military body not dependent on any country and non-mercenary that still exists today, called the Children of the Light.

 

The world is already moving on its foundations.  In the middle books there were large groups of people who just decided to wander away from home and not knowing where they were going until they got there.  They have sense resettled but in doing so brought great changes to the land they resettled (I am not talking about the TR refuges, they had a reason to leave, same as the Cairhien refuges) Elyane thought about it in one of her trips into the city before the siege.

 

And just from reading the plot summary of tGS that was revealed at JordanCon, props to boss BTW, it is pretty much asured that most of the people are packing up and heading north.

 

And according to the BWB 5 of the Ten Nations (the western ones), and TV of course, surivived the Trolloc Wars the 5 nations collasped soon after the wars because the cost of fighting bankrupted them. 

 

And Elayne went into hock to fight her civil war, Cairhien is barely holding on, Gheladen is going to have to recover from the Profit and the 3-5 monarchs in year, Tear just finished their own civil war, Arad Domain's king had his mind wiped by Grendal and that place is in turmoil, Illian had its coffers drained by Sammy, Murrandy won't last long after the expenses of unification under the king (who didn't have much money to begin with) the Borderlands will probally get thrashed by TG, the seanchan and their problems, and even Tar Valon, the oldest city in Randland and the bedrock of its civilation looks to be getting destroyed between the WT civil war, seanchan raid that seems immenate, and the Shadow marking it as a prime target shows that Randland is on the brink of collaspe(?).

 

And that isn't even taking into account the Aiel, Sharans, and conntitent of Seanchan.

 

[Perrin 187]

Thank you for informing me that RAW.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Hawkwing's empire lasted about fourty years, give or take, and the turmoil after his death lasted 120 years.

 

Still, longer than anyone's lifetime, except for some Aes Sedai.  Hence, no continuity.

 

The world is already moving on its foundations.  In the middle books there were large groups of people who just decided to wander away from home and not knowing where they were going until they got there.  They have sense resettled but in doing so brought great changes to the land they resettled (I am not talking about the TR refuges, they had a reason to leave, same as the Cairhien refuges) Elyane thought about it in one of her trips into the city before the siege.

 

All true.  You do know that I'm not saying things stay EXACTLY the same, right?  A huge unified Seanchan colony in the south-west?  A massive new "Perrin-land" stretching from Maradon to Jehannah?  Andor's borders changing to go from Whitebridge to the Spine of the World?  Add to that a good chance that Tear expands northward again, Illian and Murandy are likely to go at it, and who knows what the rest of the Borderlands will look like?  Big changes, Kaz.  But there is still some degree of continuity, because some of the players from the beginning will still be alive, unlike in either the Trolloc Wars or the War of the Hundred Years.

 

And just from reading the plot summary of tGS that was revealed at JordanCon, props to boss BTW, it is pretty much asured that most of the people are packing up and heading north

 

LOL ... we don't know where that dude was.  Maybe he was already in the Borderlands.  That doesn't mean that "everyone in Randland is leaving home".  Talk about super-extrapolation.   ::)

 

And according to the BWB 5 of the Ten Nations (the western ones), and TV of course, surivived the Trolloc Wars the 5 nations collasped soon after the wars because the cost of fighting bankrupted them.

 

The western and southern ones ... I don't think you could call Essenia and Eharon "western".

 

At any rate, the comparison you're making is again, not apt.  350 years of war is more crushing than anything we can possibly see from Tarmon Gai'don, unless the Dark One actually breaks free.  It is a different kind of battle.

 

And Elayne went into hock to fight her civil war, Cairhien is barely holding on,

 

Elayne already found the resources to pay her debt, and will likely co-opt Cairhien.

 

Gheladen is going to have to recover from the Profit and the 3-5 monarchs in year

 

I assume you mean Prophet ... given the context your misspelling is somewhat ironic ... but yes, Ghealdan is very vulnerable and will likely disappear into Perrin-land.

 

Tear just finished their own civil war

 

And established an apparently well-liked monarch from within.  One who we can be confident will survive Tarmon Gai'don and live to long and peacefully enough to die in his bed, and be survived by his wife.  (TPoD ch 27)

 

Arad Domain's king had his mind wiped by Grendal and that place is in turmoil

 

Arad Doman will likely be absorbed by either Perrin-land or the Seanchan.

 

Illian had its coffers drained by Sammy, Murrandy won't last long after the expenses of unification under the king (who didn't have much money to begin with)

 

Illian and Murandy will likely fight each other after Tarmon Gai'don, the winner emerging as a new country ... probably Illian, with Andor snipping off a fair chunk of what was northern Murandy.

 

Borderlands will probally get thrashed by TG

 

I'm not denying that in the slightest.  Shienar, at the very least, is likely to be a wasteland.

 

the seanchan and their problems

 

Which Mat and Tuon will live to deal with.

 

, and even Tar Valon, the oldest city in Randland and the bedrock of its civilation looks to be getting destroyed between the WT civil war, seanchan raid that seems immenate, and the Shadow marking it as a prime target

 

And rising again as Great Aravalon in the Fourth Age, with "The White Tower [being] whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever."  Unless Foretelling doesn't actually work ...

 

And that isn't even taking into account the Aiel, Sharans, and conntitent of Seanchan.

 

I never said things were bright and shiny, Kaz.  I just said that things aren't the same as in the Trolloc Wars and the War of the Hundred Years.

[Kaznen]

I made a statement saying the world won't be able to pick up where they left off after TG.  Then you said, "no, of course they will, anything else is absurd."

 

I then listed the state of the current countries in Randland and how they will soon fall apart.  You went through my point by point...agreeing with me.  Then said it will be more or less the same.

 

WTF man.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Then you said, "no, of course they will, anything else is absurd."

 

If you think thats what I said, then you misunderstood.

 

I said, and I quote: "So, while everything won't necessarily be the same, there will be a certain degree of continuity.  Tarmon Gai'don is a different kind of battle."  I did not say "the world will be able to pick up where they left off".  I said "there will be some degree of continuity".

 

Please try to understand what I'm actually saying before telling me what I'm actually saying.  There will be changes.  But not the TYPE of changes that followed the Trolloc Wars and the War of the Hundred Years.  Those situations were different.  The changes that will follow Tarmon Gai'don will grow out of the circumstances of Tarmon Gai'don.

[RobertAlexWillis]

You might also note, Kaz, that I proposed the shifting boundaries of Andor, the dissapearance of the Two Rivers, Saldaea, and Ghealdan into a kind of "Perrin-land", and the remaining Seanchan colony, all before your first post in this thread. 

 

To claim that I have "said it will be more or less the same" demonstrates the fact that you are clearly not understanding my position.

[DemandredFO]

Just like to add that repopulating Randland will be easier and faster because the DO will be bound.  In the realm of continuity and agreeing with RAW on of the Pre-TG rulers that survives is both a powerful queen and powerful Aes Sedai.

On the original topic, the only infighting I see is between Rand and Egwene, most probably over Rand's truce with the seancan.  There is a whole thread on the post-Last Battle, like Taralon, Great Aravolon, The Court of the Sun, etc.

[Eleint]

On the original topic, the only infighting I see is between Rand and Egwene, most probably over Rand's truce with the seancan.  There is a whole thread on the post-Last Battle, like Taralon, Great Aravolon, The Court of the Sun, etc.

 

This is where the 'He shall know her anger' prophecy comes up I think.  Egwene will be pissed Rand made an alliance with the Seanchan.  She is very irrational about them (with reason with her captivity) and she has a really hard time doing anything but lashing out about them.

[Ahaz Flagg]

And Elayne went into hock to fight her civil war, Cairhien is barely holding on, Gheladen is going to have to recover from the Profit and the 3-5 monarchs in year, Tear just finished their own civil war, Arad Domain's king had his mind wiped by Grendal and that place is in turmoil, Illian had its coffers drained by Sammy, Murrandy won't last long after the expenses of unification under the king (who didn't have much money to begin with) the Borderlands will probally get thrashed by TG, the seanchan and their problems, and even Tar Valon, the oldest city in Randland and the bedrock of its civilation looks to be getting destroyed between the WT civil war, seanchan raid that seems immenate, and the Shadow marking it as a prime target shows that Randland is on the brink of collaspe(?).

 

A few things I noticed that I think you are mistken on. 

 

1.  Elyane,has very healty Alum mine that she uses to pay her merc with.  While it is fair to say, Andor's tresurey is much lighter after Rand took it over, there is no proof that Elayne went into hock.

 

2.  You claim Sammel drained Illian's coffers, again you do this with no proof. If you look at Sammels past, you will find that he does not empty the coffers as you say. Sammel wanted Illian to be his base.I do not have the books in front of me, and it has been many months since i read any of them, but this is something that would stick out. Sammel wanted to build an empire, and you do not do that be stealing from your base.

 

As for the dividing of Randland, I do not see that it is going to be Rand, Perrin and Mat who split it up.  Rand frigging hates ruling, I am betting if he lives, he will run as far as he can.  Perrin is another reluctant ruler, he will however do it. Mat could care less about any of that either.  I do not see Rand and Mat suddenly becoming totaly differant people after TG

 

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

As for the dividing of Randland, I do not see that it is going to be Rand, Perrin and Mat who split it up.  Rand frigging hates ruling, I am betting if he lives, he will run as far as he can.  Perrin is another reluctant ruler, he will however do it. Mat could care less about any of that either.  I do not see Rand and Mat suddenly becoming totaly differant people after TG

 

I agree that Rand, assuming he lives, will not be in a prominent position port Tarmon Gai'don.  Even if he wanted to rule (which he certainly doesn't) no one is going to want him around.  There is a reason people want their Heroes to ride into the sunset.

 

Perrin will indeed be a reluctant but effective ruler.

 

Mat will be going to Seanchan with Tuon.  This is no longer merely speculation; it is the revealed storyline of the outrigger novels.

 

In short, I agree, the three boys are not going to be dividing up Randland.

[Mr Ares]

Saldea is seperated from the Two Rivers by a thousand miles of uninhabited land.

And a strip of Andor which serves as a link between the areas Caemlyn actually controls and the mines in the Mountains of Mist, which they would likely want to hang onto. Elayne has good reason to resist Perrin trying to annex a good chunk of her country.

[Owners.Inc]

I doubt we'll see how this conflict gets resolved in the books. It might be a case of Eylane just giving the TR to Perrin cos Rand asked nicely, or she might go all stubborn abt get lectured by Lini and her Mum (who have sworn to Perrin), and then give over.

 

Either way, I think we'll just see the future of Randland in an extended epilogue to the series...That's usually how these books end right?

[Mr Ares]

Either way, I think we'll just see the future of Randland in an extended epilogue to the series...That's usually how these books end right?

There's not exactly a lot of precedent for how a series like this would end.

[DemandredFO]

We might see the beginning of the reorganization but I think in large measure Taralon, Great Aravalon, the court of the sun and who knows what else is one of those loose ends that RJ talked about.  It will also by the way give people like us plenty to argue about until we are all dust.  About the TR who knows a mountain pass could open up or something.  Andor will probably be on of a handful of nations that survived the buildup and the actual battle relatively intact, if nothing else that may aid in the bargaining.  I mean if we do see the Mat & Tuon novels we may see both sides of the Aryth Ocean, for all we know the Randland reorganization may still be going on at that time and lest people forget the Blight will be gone.

[RobertAlexWillis]

And a strip of Andor which serves as a link between the areas Caemlyn actually controls and the mines in the Mountains of Mist, which they would likely want to hang onto. Elayne has good reason to resist Perrin trying to annex a good chunk of her country.

 

She doesn't have the resources to exploit those mines.  That is why that entire section is only part of Andor on maps right now.

 

She can get much more by exploiting Cairhien, as a ruler friendly to the Aiel, and leaving the mines of the Mountains of Mist in the hands of a friendly buffer ruler, than by trying to hold onto it all herself.