Christ v. the anti christ the final showdown.

[Eleint]

And IMO, that's not really LTT, but just his memories.

 

It becomes pretty obvious, really.  Rand has memories from his past.  These memories are a result of maybe the taint, his ta'veren-ness and rebirth, or a combination.  The taint, however, forces him to go insane, and the method is he forms a whole personality around these memories.  It started in TSR with minor comments and started to expand slowly as he channeled more.

 

The kicker is after Winter's Heart and Aridhol.  He says outright that after Aridhol, LTT was a LOT more real to him, and we see him taking on many of LTT's mannerisms without even thinking about it.  After he channeled literally all the taint in the world into Aridhol to blow it up with Aridhol's own taint.

 

Basically, I don't think the voice in Rand's head is actually LTT.  I think it's a secondary personality formed by Rand's own mind from memories from the past, with those memories as a nucleus of sorts.  Thus why he has to 're-integrate' it to quote Semirhage.  (Yes, she may or may not be lying about how hard it is.  If the truth is bad enough, why use a lie when the truth will hurt so much?)

[Mik]

Lews Therin Telamon is insane.

If you say so. He's done and suggested some pretty sane things though.

 

Don't forget Ishamael. He is a lying liar who lies and insane to boot.

That ensures that anything the two most important characters in this series do or say is nonsense?

I don't think so.

 

So LTT would "realise" that Taim was just a recycled Ishamael in disguise, with Taim having done nothing suspicious other than just stand there?

C'mon man. And I get flogged for having an opinion?

Let me help you with just two lines from my previous quote (they weren't posted for nothing);

"He [Rand] did not like Taim, and Lews Therin would surge around the man, but he could not go on avoiding the place."

"His real reason for abandoning the Power was that he [Rand] did not think he dared face Taim with saidin in him and Lews Therin in his head."

Even in the short time as from the start of LoC to chapter 42 of LoC, Taim and Rand (and LTT) have a history...per Rands own thoughts right there and then. As for "Taim just standing there". The man is building weapons in a place that's starting to look like a place devoid of life ("The clearing was browner than he remembered, more leaves crackling under his boots and still fewer on the trees. Some of the pines were completely yellow, and a number of leatherleafs stood dead, gray and bare.") He just knocked a pupil unconciously with the power... etc. RAFO.

 

But later completely fail to make the connection Ishamael -> Moridin, despite having seen Moridin doing something that proved he was not just a DF, but a high ranking forsaken?

Apparently (then again, appearances are deceptive). Still; LTT did recognise Ishamael in Taim (see quote). It's not like RJ is going to spell it out for you.

 

And if LTTs rants are so much worth as proof of anything, how come he the first time Rand/LTT meets Taim starts ranting about Sammael and Demandred? With extra emphasis on how Demandred hated him? There is no need to make any out-of-the-blue assumptions about who he means here, he specifically names these two gentlemen.

 

Must be quite a crowd hanging out in Taims body...

Aww Maj. Now you finally know what the Red Herring was for.. and you go all ironic on me. *sniff*

A 'red herring' by the way 'a particular character is described or emphasized in a way that seems to throw suspicion upon that character as the person who committed the crime: later, it develops that someone else is the guilty party.' (source; wikipedia)

 

Everyone and their grandma fell over Demandred. Noone ever realised the someone else here was Moridin.

 

And IMO, that's not really LTT, but just his memories.

Lews Therin his mind never died. Rand has another living mind inside his body. It's not old memories, it's a thinking personality that is able to channel the one power. Only a living mind can do that. (per Moiraine in TEotW)

 

Cheerio,

Mik

[Eleint]

See, what I'm saying is Rand has a split personality.  Thus, both personalities are real.  But the 'LTT Personality' is not 'LTT', but grown up from memories.  I don't think this denies what Moiraine said.

[Elgee]

Something that's always bothered me: If Rand is LTT reborn, why are they seperate personalities?

[Mik]

See, what I'm saying is Rand has a split personality.  Thus, both personalities are real.

Yeah. That explanes perfectly why the Heroes of the Horn instantly call Rand "Lews Therin" when they first see and meet him (without Rand doing anything *pokes Maj* ;))

Or why in the thousands of lives Rand experiences in the Portal Stones he is told upon dying "I win again, Lews Therin".

A figment of Rand his immagination, that is?

 

Lews Therin his mind is real, if only if he 'could remember when he wore flesh'.

 

But the 'LTT Personality' is not 'LTT', but grown up from memories.  I don't think this denies what Moiraine said.

See above.

 

Also, wouldn't it be wierd if the whole series is about the Dragon facing the Dark One at Tarmon Gai'don..but it  would actually be about Rand his immaginary boy-friend?

 

Lews Therin is a living mind who will do battle with the heavily corrupted mind of Moridin (Death)

They will square off in the Unseen World, where willpower is everything, me thinks.

 

Something that's always bothered me: If Rand is LTT reborn, why are they seperate personalities?

"Leafblighter means to blind the Eye of the World, Lost One."

 

The Dragon is the Eye (Heart/ Soul) of the World.

Lews Therin 'TelAmon' = Lews Therin 'World Heart/ Soul'

 

Tel'aran'rhiod =  World of the Unseen &

Ba'alzAmon = Heart of the Dark / Soul of the Shadow

I guess Ba'alzamon succeeded in blinding the Eye... for now.

[Elgee]

Something that's always bothered me: If Rand is LTT reborn, why are they seperate personalities?

"Leafblighter means to blind the Eye of the World, Lost One."

 

The Dragon is the Eye (Heart/ Soul) of the World.

Lews Therin 'TelAmon' = Lews Therin 'World Heart/ Soul'

 

Tel'aran'rhiod =  World of the Unseen &

Ba'alzAmon = Heart of the Dark / Soul of the Shadow

I guess Ba'alzamon succeeded in blinding the Eye... for now.

 

Guhh  ???

 

Apart from not having a clue what you were saying there, I tend towards your opinion on the LTT is real theory.

[Mik]

Something that's always bothered me: If Rand is LTT reborn, why are they seperate personalities?

"Leafblighter means to blind the Eye of the World, Lost One."

 

The Dragon is the Eye (Heart/ Soul) of the World.

Lews Therin 'TelAmon' = Lews Therin 'World Heart/ Soul'

 

Tel'aran'rhiod =  World of the Unseen &

Ba'alzAmon = Heart of the Dark / Soul of the Shadow

I guess Ba'alzamon succeeded in blinding the Eye... for now.

 

Guhh  ???

 

Apart from not having a clue what you were saying there, I tend towards your opinion on the LTT is real theory.

I was tryin got say that in a figure of speech, Leafblighter managed to blind the Eye of the World.

 

If you can agree with me that the Dragon actually represents 'the Eye of the World', then the Aiel telling the Tuatha'an that "Leafblighter means to blind the Eye of the World" could mean that the Dark One tries to keep the reborn Dragon ignorant.

 

Because Rand his mind has the upper hand, the Dragon is 'blinded'.

Lews Therins mind is there, but he isn't in control.

In a way, Ba'alzamon succeeded.

Get it?

 

 

Edit: Responce to RAW

 

"Leafblighter means to blind the Eye of the World, Lost One."

 

The Dragon is the Eye (Heart/ Soul) of the World.

Lews Therin 'TelAmon' = Lews Therin 'World Heart/ Soul'

 

Tel'aran'rhiod =  World of the Unseen &

Ba'alzAmon = Heart of the Dark / Soul of the Shadow

I guess Ba'alzamon succeeded in blinding the Eye... for now.

 

Um ... the Eye of the World was a pool of saidin.

Um ... yeah. That too. The obvious bit.

I don't need to tell you RJ filled his books with double meanings. "Two Rivers" is just a name. Couldn't be referring to Saidin & Saidar? The books are loaded and loaded with double meaning (if not tripple).

 

I mean ... you're doing some pretty flimsy extrapolating from some unconfirmed word order/translation ...  how do you know that the "Tel" in Tel'aran'rhiod is the "world" part?  Or that the "amon" in Ba'alzamon is the "heart" or "soul" part?

I think it's a shame you call it flimsy RAW. I really do. Is it really such a big leap? Think about it. Telamon & Ba'alzamon as 'nicknames-if-you-will' for the two main characters in the series are coincidence? Flimsy :(

Makes me a bit sad you say that. Not just for me.. but for RJ too.

 

Words that mean one thing apart don't always mean the same thing when put together.  For example, "eye" and "sore".  An "eyesore" is not a sore on your eye.

If you like to call it coincidence, suit yourself.

 

The Dark One's influence on the world alters or negates the effects of time.  For some, this means that past incarnations imprinted from their soul can become "present".  We know that the Heroes souls retain memories of their past lives.  Lews Therin Telamon is the sum of his memories ... all of us are the sum of our memories.

Mind if I return the favour? Flimsy reasoning at best.

1; That's the ONE thing the DO can not alter! Time! Wrong right off the bat.

2. "for some" .."can become present"? Mind sharing with me the basis of this?

3. Heroes in TAR know all the lives they lived. Not when they are spun out.

4. Lews Therin is a thinking mind, responding to his direct suroundings. He is not just some 'old bag of AoL memories'

.... ???

 

The variety of effects we have seen from the taint on male channelers can all be attributed to the alteration of the effects of time on the mind/body of the channeler.  The obvious ones are the men who hear voices (a fairly common side effect, in all probability, given Cadsuane's casual mention of it to Rand).  Another obvious one is Morr's regression to an earlier state of mind.  Less obvious would be the men who see things ... perhaps they are seeing through time itself ... and not in a clear or organized way, like visions.  Just imagine that you could see everything that happened in a particular place all mixed up at the same time ... that could get very disturbing very quickly.  Ditto any sensation.  What would it feel like if you could feel the effects of time being distorted?  There's no way to tell how the mind would deal with it, but the feeling of being covered by spiders is probably one of the tamer possibilities.

I seriously think you guys have been listening and feeding eachother the same flimsy stories for too long. *shrugs*

The taint does not affect time; it directly affects the mind & body of the channeler. Nothing to do with past lives, but with madness. Deterioration of mind and/ or body are in no way connected to past lives.

You guys seem to have convinced eachother that must be the case.

 

And why do their bodies rot off?  What if time was passing for your finger at a different rate than for your hand?  Death and rotting are distinct possibilities.

Death and rotting are distinct possibilities without you brining in time -wich might I add is what imprisons our good friend; Shai' tan-.

 

Obviously this is all my opinion.  But it seems to fit the cosmology of the Wheel, and what little we know of the Dark One's nature.

The nature of the Dark One is about absence of Creation. The complete removal of everything. The nature of the Dark One prohibits him altering Time, because Time is his prison. If the Dark One could alter that, he wouldn't be imprisoned by it, now would he?

 

Oh, and one other thing ... "Ba'alzamon" is not in the Old Tongue ... its in the language of the Trollocs ... making the "amon" in "Telamon" unlikely to have the same meaning.

 

"Telamon" is not "World-heart", much less "Eye of the World".

Then why is it on that old paper Verin has from Rosel of Essam. It's from the AoL in High Chant.

 

‘Heart of the Dark. Ba’alzamon. Name hidden within name shrouded by name. Secret buried within secret cloaked by secret. Betrayer of Hope. Ishamael betrays all hope. Truth burns and sears. Hope fails before truth. A lie is our shield. Who can stand against the Heart of the Dark? Who can face the Betrayer of Hope? Soul of shadow, Soul of the Shadow, he is—’ ” She stopped with a sigh. “It ends there. What do you make of it?” (TDR, Chapter 21 - A World of Dreams)

Ba'alzamon is the Old Tongue. That it's the Trolloc name for Ishamael hints at other things..

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Um ... yeah. That too. The obvious bit.

I don't need to tell you RJ filled his books with double meanings. "Two Rivers" is just a name. Couldn't be referring to Saidin & Saidar? The books are loaded and loaded with double meaning (if not tripple).

 

That doesn't mean you can just make stuff up.

 

Or rather, it doesn't mean that just because you can make stuff up, it is in any way valid.

 

You think of the Two Rivers as saidin and saidar?  That's ...

 

... well, of consistent quality with the rest of your theory.  ::)

 

I think it's a shame you call it flimsy RAW. I really do. Is it really such a big leap? Think about it. Telamon & Ba'alzamon as 'nicknames-if-you-will' for the two main characters in the series are coincidence? Flimsy

 

Is it such a leap?  In a word, yes.  Ba'alzamon and Telamon are not in the same language.

 

If you like to call it coincidence, suit yourself.

 

I wouldn't even call it coincidence.  I call it nothing.

 

Mind if I return the favour? Flimsy reasoning at best.

1; That's the ONE thing the DO can not alter! Time! Wrong right off the bat.

2. "for some" .."can become present"? Mind sharing with me the basis of this?

3. Heroes in TAR know all the lives they lived. Not when they are spun out.

4. Lews Therin is a thinking mind, responding to his direct suroundings. He is not just some 'old bag of AoL memories'

 

Since this isn't the purpose of this thread, I'm not going to go into the extensive thinking behind my opinion on the effects of the taint.  I will say that, for the purposes of this thread, the difference is that I specifically labeled mine as opinion.

 

I seriously think you guys have been listening and feeding eachother the same flimsy stories for too long. *shrugs*

The taint does not affect time; it directly affects the mind & body of the channeler. Nothing to do with past lives, but with madness. Deterioration of mind and/ or body are in no way connected to past lives.

You guys seem to have convinced eachother that must be the case.

 

LOL ... you didn't even actually understand what I said, did you?

 

Death and rotting are distinct possibilities without you brining in time -wich might I add is what imprisons our good friend; Shai' tan-.

 

And as there is a hole in his prison, which allows him to touch the world ... hmmmm

 

The nature of the Dark One is about absence of Creation. The complete removal of everything. The nature of the Dark One prohibits him altering Time, because Time is his prison. If the Dark One could alter that, he wouldn't be imprisoned by it, now would he?

 

The nature of the Dark One is Chaos and Paradox.  The opposites of Time.  Thats why the more he touches the world, the more the effects of time are altered.  Time is what keeps events in reality separate.  Those events are becoming less separate.  Remember the dead walking?  I wonder why thats a sign that the Dark One is about to break out, hmmmm?

 

Then why is it on that old paper Verin has from Rosel of Essam. It's from the AoL in High Chant.

 

Ba'alzamon is the Old Tongue. That it's the Trolloc name for Ishamael hints at other things..

 

Rosel of Essam wrote in the Old Tongue, but he was not from the Age of Legends.  And foreign words are often incorporated into sentences.  Like, faux pas, kindergarten, et cetera.

 

Ba'alzamon is the Trolloc's name for Ishamael in their own tongue.  A tongue which did not exist when Lews Therin Telamon got his name.  Trollocs do not speak the Old Tongue.  And, Heart of the Dark in the Old Tongue would be something like Shaidar Cuen, or Cuenshadar.  (cuendillar = heartstone  cuebiyari = heart guard, the root for heart in the Old Tongue is "cue" or "cuen").

 

But, by all means, if you can provide a reference which says that either 1) the Trollocs speak the Old Tongue, or that 2) Ba'alzamon is in the Old Tongue, feel free.

 

I wait with patience.

[water_seeker]

Ba'alzamon  (bah-AHL-zah-mon):  In the Trolloc tongue, "Heart of the Dark."  Believed to be the Trolloc name for the Dark One.

tEotW Glossary

[Elgee]

Something that's always bothered me: If Rand is LTT reborn, why are they seperate personalities?

"Leafblighter means to blind the Eye of the World, Lost One."

 

The Dragon is the Eye (Heart/ Soul) of the World.

Lews Therin 'TelAmon' = Lews Therin 'World Heart/ Soul'

 

Tel'aran'rhiod =  World of the Unseen &

Ba'alzAmon = Heart of the Dark / Soul of the Shadow

I guess Ba'alzamon succeeded in blinding the Eye... for now.

 

Guhh  ???

 

Apart from not having a clue what you were saying there, I tend towards your opinion on the LTT is real theory.

I was tryin got say that in a figure of speech, Leafblighter managed to blind the Eye of the World.

 

If you can agree with me that the Dragon actually represents 'the Eye of the World', then the Aiel telling the Tuatha'an that "Leafblighter means to blind the Eye of the World" could mean that the Dark One tries to keep the reborn Dragon ignorant.

 

Because Rand his mind has the upper hand, the Dragon is 'blinded'.

Lews Therins mind is there, but he isn't in control.

In a way, Ba'alzamon succeeded.

Get it?

 

Nope, don't get it.

 

Apart from not understanding all your equal signs, I also don't understand what your theory has to do with my question, which had to do with the nature of reincarnation.

 

And no, I don't agree with you that Rand is the Eye of the World.

[Mik]

Um ... yeah. That too. The obvious bit.

I don't need to tell you RJ filled his books with double meanings. "Two Rivers" is just a name. Couldn't be referring to Saidin & Saidar? The books are loaded and loaded with double meaning (if not tripple).

 

That doesn't mean you can just make stuff up.

 

Or rather, it doesn't mean that just because you can make stuff up, it is in any way valid.

 

You think of the Two Rivers as saidin and saidar?  That's ...

 

... well, of consistent quality with the rest of your theory.  ::)

I think of the Two Rivers as a reference to Saidar and Saidin, yes. In in Wheel of Time, flowing water is a symbol for the One Power. If you think thats such a big leap, then I understand how you will not see the rest. It's not like I'm saying something new here.

If you can understand that, the fact that Myrddraal only cross flowing water in very great need, can give a hint or clue about the nature of Myrddraal. Well, that's how I choose to read the books.

 

The Wheel of Time is filled to the brim with semantic ambiguities and symbolism.

If you refuse to see those, then you're selling yourself -and the writer- short.

 

If you accept that it's loaded with ambiguities, what's so wierd about thinking of "blinding the Eye of the World" as having more then one meaning? Yes, the Eye of the World was the saidin filled well. How was that blinded though? Coincidently we have the Fisher in the Sha'rah game, blinded and wounded at the start of the game. A clear symbol and reference to the Dragon. How is it so hard to see that when RJ wrote  that "Leafblighter means to blind the Eye of the World, Lost One" he meant that Shai'tan wants to 'blind' the Dragon in one way or another.

Considering the Dragons role and all the references to 'standing at the heart of it', the symbolism of the Stone of Tear, the Fisher etc... to view the Dragon as the Centre of the World? It's Eye. The Heart of Creation?

 

Is the Fisher not wounded at the start of the game?

Wasn't Rand wounded at the same place when he first raised the Dragon Banner?

Is the Fisher not blinded at the start of the game?

.... (fill in the blanks please?)

 

I think it's a shame you call it flimsy RAW. I really do. Is it really such a big leap? Think about it. Telamon & Ba'alzamon as 'nicknames-if-you-will' for the two main characters in the series are coincidence? Flimsy

 

Is it such a leap?  In a word, yes.  Ba'alzamon and Telamon are not in the same language.

How long does it take to develop a language? If you can call 'Trolloc language' development. I'd rather call it deterioration. What was the (only?) language when Trollocs were constructed & bred? The Old Tongue. Trollocs crap their pants when around Ba'alzamon. Is it such a big leap to think that he named himself? Didn't Shaidar Haran have an Old Tongue name? Why would it be so wierd?

 

You seem to have forgotten how Trollocs talk these days:

 

Demandred hesitated before following. Halfmen’s names were always in the Trollocs’ tongue-wrenching language. “Shaidar Haran” came from what people now named the Old Tongue. It meant “Hand of the Dark.” Another surprise, and Demandred did not like surprises, especially not at Shayol Ghul. (LoC, Prologue - The First Message)

-----------------------------------

 

Trolloc Speech

 

The door hung askew, and shadowed shapes moved cautiously into the room, talking in low, guttural voices. Rand understood none of what was said; the language sounded harsh, unsuited to a human tongue. Axes and spears and spiked things dully reflected stray glimmers of moonlight. Boots scraped on the floor, and there was a rhythmic click, as of hooves, as well.

…/ /…Coarse-voiced shouts in the strange tongue raged from the back room (TEotW, Chapter 5 - Winternight)

 

It muttered something, guttural and sharp, then said, “Others go away. Narg stay. Narg smart.” The words were distorted and hard to understand, coming from a mouth never meant for human speech. [According to Rand] (TEotW, Chapter 5 - Winternight)

 

The Trolloc snarled gutturally in the harsh Trolloc tongue, throwing its head back in efforts to catch Loial with a tusk. (TGH, Chapter 27 - The Shadow in the Night)

 

The others finished cutting the throats of their wounded, and one barked a few harsh, guttural words. Without another glance at Mat, they turned and trotted away, hooves and boots making hollow sounds on the stone floor. (TSR, Chapter 13 - Rumors)

 

Shuffling hooves and boots followed in the blackness, and harsh mutters in a language too rough for human tongues. [According to Perrin] (TSR, Chapter 27 - Within the Ways)

 

“ISAM!” The guttural roar rose like thunder, and Trollocs appeared

…/ /…“Interesting,” Verin murmured.

Perrin would not have thought that was the word. This was the first time the Trollocs had shouted anything understandable. Not that he had any idea what it meant. (TSR, Chapter 56 - Goldeneyes)

 

Snarling, the Trolloc lunged at him [Mat], and howled in a harsh language never meant for a human tongue. (TFoH, Chapter 22 - Birdcalls by Night)

 

Grunting something in a harsh language never meant for a human tongue, the Trolloc flipped her [Elayne] facedown again and knelt on her, thick knees crushing her arms against her back. (LoC, Chapter 7 - A Matter of Thought)

 

Trolloc language doesn't sound like much of a language to come up with the name Ba'alzamon. (It doesn't sound like much in the first place)

A name that -structure wise- fits well in the Old Tongue style.

A name that happens to be in the only piece of writing to survive the breaking and written in High Chant!

That piece of writing specifically combines the name Ba'alzamon and "Heart of the Dark" / "Soul of the Shadow".

 

If you like to call it coincidence, suit yourself.

 

I wouldn't even call it coincidence.  I call it nothing.

Big words. A shame really.

 

Mind if I return the favour? Flimsy reasoning at best.

1; That's the ONE thing the DO can not alter! Time! Wrong right off the bat.

2. "for some" .."can become present"? Mind sharing with me the basis of this?

3. Heroes in TAR know all the lives they lived. Not when they are spun out.

4. Lews Therin is a thinking mind, responding to his direct suroundings. He is not just some 'old bag of AoL memories'

 

Since this isn't the purpose of this thread, I'm not going to go into the extensive thinking behind my opinion on the effects of the taint.  I will say that, for the purposes of this thread, the difference is that I specifically labeled mine as opinion.

That's an easy way out. Not going into detail, but oh well.. *shrug*

Touché though on the label 'opinion'.

So if I just label this all a theory and my opinion, you'd be ok with it? What's in a name? Ok.. this is opinion & theory.

 

LOL ... you didn't even actually understand what I said, did you?

Immagine how much sense it made!

Those 4 points I posted alone poked holes the size of Jupiter in your opinion. Like I said.. if you feed eachother the same crap over and over it starts to make sense eventually, I guess.

 

Death and rotting are distinct possibilities without you brining in time -wich might I add is what imprisons our good friend; Shai' tan-.

 

And as there is a hole in his prison, which allows him to touch the world ... hmmmm

And that proves what? Hrmm? That Shai'tan has -some- control over the rest of the wall? Back to square one, please. Shai'tan has some control over with happens on the other side of the fence... not on the fence itself, so to speak. Shai'tan even mentioned that fact itself. Shai'tan cannot alter time!

 

The nature of the Dark One is about absence of Creation. The complete removal of everything. The nature of the Dark One prohibits him altering Time, because Time is his prison. If the Dark One could alter that, he wouldn't be imprisoned by it, now would he?

 

The nature of the Dark One is Chaos and Paradox.  The opposites of Time.  Thats why the more he touches the world, the more the effects of time are altered.  Time is what keeps events in reality separate.  Those events are becoming less separate.  Remember the dead walking?  I wonder why thats a sign that the Dark One is about to break out, hmmmm?

I hope you do know that the origens of the word Chaos, means 'Nothingness'. I hope you realise that the 'dark counterpart' of Creation (RJs own words to describe the Dark One) is the absence of Creation.

The nature of the Dark One is a hollow promise. He is Lord of Nothing, unless you let him be. His touch is about unmaking and an absence of life (death). That's why there are dead walking... not because Shai'tan is messing with Time itself.

 

Then why is it on that old paper Verin has from Rosel of Essam. It's from the AoL in High Chant.

 

Ba'alzamon is the Old Tongue. That it's the Trolloc name for Ishamael hints at other things..

 

Rosel of Essam wrote in the Old Tongue, but he was not from the Age of Legends.  And foreign words are often incorporated into sentences.  Like, faux pas, kindergarten, et cetera.

Ermm.. She (Rosel) wrote about 100 pages surviging the Breaking and she should know!

She wrote a direct translation.

So.. now, next to LTT being a loony, Ishamael being a lying loony..this page with the best and most acurate info we have on the AoL isn't trustworthy enough for you either? Who is making stuff up here?

Don't we have more then enough references to know that Ba'alzamon stands for "Heart of the Dark"?

We're only debating about wheter Rosel wrote in the Trolloc Tongue or High Chant here..

Hello?

Pick one. I pick High Chant/ Old Tongue.

 

Ba'alzamon is the Trolloc's name for Ishamael in their own tongue.  A tongue which did not exist when Lews Therin Telamon got his name.  Trollocs do not speak the Old Tongue.

Exactly! Isn't that the whole point I'm making. Rosel wrote about the name from before the breaking!  ;D

How can a document from before the Breaking contain a name in a language that had to be fully developed in -say- 10 years...?

If you are right, the insanely stupid Trollocs came up with their own language within 10 years and it produced the beautiful name "Ba'alzamon".

While all we hear after years and years of development is harsh gutteral cries from throats unsuited for human speech.

Wouldn't it be more logical for the name to be Old Tongue?

 

And, Heart of the Dark in the Old Tongue would be something like Shaidar Cuen, or Cuenshadar.  (cuendillar = heartstone  cuebiyari = heart guard, the root for heart in the Old Tongue is "cue" or "cuen").

You could very well be right!  :).. that's the problem with the poetic Old Tongue isn't it? It can mean more then one thing (fact) and I'm sure there are more words or ways for expressing the same thing (fact too)

 

Like Ba'alzamon meaning both Heart of the Dark and Soul of the Shadow.

 

Just like maybe Shaidar Cuen could mean Shadow's Heart too. True.

Just because you can come up with another way to say roughly the same thing with the exact same method as I am using, doesn't make mine wrong.

 

I could respond in the same way as you though, by asking for proof that Shadar from Shadar Logoth means the Shadow bit instead of the Waiting bit. I'd say common sense suggests that Shadar means Shadow, so that's why I agree with what you are saying.

 

But, by all means, if you can provide a reference which says that either 1) the Trollocs speak the Old Tongue, or that 2) Ba'alzamon is in the Old Tongue, feel free.

 

I wait with patience.

1) See above; nope, but Trollocs probably started out without their own language and used some words from the only language available; The language of their makers. Guess what language that was...?

2) I already did before you even posted this reply. You just don't want to accept Rosel of Essam didn't write crude Trolloc markings of a language that didn't even exist when the original documents she found were written in her own translation.

 

I hope I didn't stretch your patience too far. I answered first thing in the morning.

 

Cheerio,

Mik

[Mik]

Ba'alzamon  (bah-AHL-zah-mon):  In the Trolloc tongue, "Heart of the Dark."  Believed to be the Trolloc name for the Dark One.

tEotW Glossary

Well, yeah, water_seeker, you could just provide an easy reference, but then I wouldn't have an excuse to show off hypothetical Old Tongue constructions like "Shaidar Cuen" or "Cuenshadar".

 

Jeez, man.

 

;)

First off.. awawahawah.. funny RAW.

Atleast water_seeker came up with a more decent defence in just one sentence. He only needed one sentence too.

 

Second, that 'easy reference' actually brings more trouble for your case, but I thought you guys could figure that out by yourself.

Ever read TSR glossary too?

Ba’alzamon (bah-AHL-zah-mon): In the Trolloc tongue, “Heart of the Dark.” Believed by most, erroneously, to be the Trolloc name for the Dark One. (TSR, Glossary)

Note the difference? So there was a mistake in the EoTW & TGH Glossary in that sentence about Ba'alzamon. Wow!

And if there was a deliberate mistake there in the first place, what makes you guys so sure that the rest of it is right?

So you are willing to accept that everything LTT says or suggests is the ranting of a loon... you are willin to accept that Rosel of Essams words are somehow partly in the Trolloc Tongue.. but you are convinced what the glossary is right, where RJ deliberately put a flaw in the knowledge surrounding the name Ba'alzamon.

Now isn''t that a hoot?

 

How does the word Ba'alzamon rhyme with the harsh gutteral tongue-wrenching language unsuited to a human tongue (all straight from the books) that is the Trolloc language?

 

This is what Moiraine tells us from the Trolloc Wars:

"The host that faced the men of Manetheren was enough to daunt the bravest heart. Ravens blackened the sky; Trollocs blackened the land. Trollocs and their human allies. Trollocs and Darkfriends in tens of tens of thousands, and Dreadlords to command. At night their cookfires outnumbered th e stars, and dawn revealed the banner of Ba’alzamon at their head. Ba’alzamon, Heart of the Dark. An ancient name for the Father of Lies."

(TEotW, chapter 9 - Tellings of the Wheel)

 

This is what the BWB :) tells us about the name:

During the Trolloc Wars the name Ba’alzamon, later claimed by Ishamael, was used by a paramount leader, and later by other Dreadlords.

 

Perhaps the name became associated with Trollocs because they used the name extensively during the Trolloc Wars for the first time again since the breaking of the world. Recent history might have also erroneously believed the name was in the Trolloc language as well.

 

[Mr Ares]

I know, but if I do not bother, I might have enough free time on my hands to actually do real work, and that we can not have ;D

So Mik is the lesser of two evils?

 

The taint' date=' however, forces him to go insane, and the method is he forms a whole personality around these memories.[/quote']The memories themselves are a sign of his insanity.

 

Everyone and their grandma fell over Demandred. Noone ever realised the someone else here was Moridin.

So LTT rants about Demandred being there, and he is wrong. He talks about Sammael being there, and he is wrong. So we are supposed to take from him talking about Ishamael that Taim is Ishy? Why? And, of course, no-one realised it, except you! Only you can see the Truth! Only you are visionary enough to put the pieces together, to add one and one and get three! We are not worthy! We are not worthy! Plus, Taim can't be Ishy. So your conclusion is, not for the first time, completely erroneous. I suppose when the last books are released and they do not vindicate you, it is because Brandon Sanderson butchered Robert Jordan's vision, because he is not able to grasp the Truth! And if RJ's notes were released and they disagreed with you, it is because he cannot see the Truth! He has blinded himself to your genius, Mik! That is the only possible explanation! I wonder why no-one else saw what, to you, is so clear. Do you ever wonder that?

 

LTT did recognise Ishamael in Taim

And Sammael in Taim, and Demandred in Taim.

 

But the 'LTT Personality' is not 'LTT'' date=' but grown up from memories.[/quote']But the original LTT's personality would have been grown from his memories.

 

If Rand is LTT reborn' date=' why are they seperate personalities?[/quote']LTT died. His soul was reborn as Rand, but Rand is a different person. This from the blog might help:

Everybody fears death because the being that is reborn, while possessing the same soul, will not be the same person.

Different person, different personality. I'm sorry I can't be as lucid and helpful as Mik, but I hope this helps.

 

Guhh  Huh

 

Apart from not having a clue what you were saying there, I tend towards your opinion on the LTT is real theory.

That is because you, like most of us, are not worthy of comprehending the genius of Mik, Blessed Be His Name, Chosen of the Light, Bringer of Truth. We must simply have faith that his seemingly insane ravings do actually make sense and what he said was an answer to your question, even if we are not deemed worthy of understanding that answer.

 

Ba'alzamon is the Old Tongue.

No, great one, it isn't. Please do not smite me! It is the Trolloc tongue. Even if everything else was in a different language, that word was left untranslated.

 

I think of the Two Rivers as a reference to Saidar and Saidin, yes.

Funny, I think of it as a reference to the two rivers. I'm probably just grasping at straws, though, with my crazy theorising.

 

Is the Fisher not wounded at the start of the game?

Wasn't Rand wounded at the same place when he first raised the Dragon Banner?

Is the Fisher not blinded at the start of the game?

.... (fill in the blanks please?)

Is The Great Hunt not not the start of the game? Was not Rand not blinded at the start of the game? Are not these blanks existent only withing your mind, not within the text? Does not this sentence not not make sense?

[Mik]

yes ares

[Rinkai]

Whoa, I didn't mean for this to become a grudge match. And It doesn't have much to do with the original question. With that said, Im glad that it spark such an intense debate.

 

But back to the original topic. If Morridin

[Rinkai]

Is such a skilled tactician (being very good at the fisher game which makes stones look like tic tac toe), then it seems unreasonable that he does not have a plan to start TG when and where he chooses. He can't just give up that advantage.

 

Also (off topic warning), Morridin doesn't know why its called the fisher. If the fisher is Rand, and Rand has herons on his hands, and herons do eat fish(at least im pretty sure they do), maybe the fisher is in regards to rands herons. Kind of out ,I know. It just came to me while writing this reply.

[Mik]

Ba’alzamon (bah-AHL-zah-mon): In the Trolloc tongue, “Heart of the Dark.” Believed by most, erroneously, to be the Trolloc name for the Dark One. (TSR, Glossary)

 

Note the difference? So there was a mistake in the EoTW & TGH Glossary in that sentence about Ba'alzamon. Wow!

 

LMAO ... moron.

Excuse me?

 

The "erroneously" doesn't mean it isn't in the Trolloc language.  The "erroneously" means it doesn't refer to the Dark One.  Most people erroneously think Ba'alzamon is the Trolloc name for the Dark One.  It isn't.  It is the Trolloc name for Ishamael.

 

Everybody in the first few books was suppose to think that Ba'alzamon was the Dark One.  That is why the glossaries were different.

You didn't need to state the obvious. You just need to read better:

 

Note the difference? So there was a mistake in the EoTW & TGH Glossary in that sentence about Ba'alzamon. Wow!

And if there was a deliberate mistake there in the first place, what makes you guys so sure that the rest of it is right

You think you got it all figured out, eh?

You didn't even read one post right and call someone a moron for not reading it well enough.

 

But it is still a Trolloc name, in the Trolloc language.

 

Hilarious.

I think it's pretty sad.

 

How does the word Ba'alzamon rhyme with the harsh gutteral tongue-wrenching language unsuited to a human tongue (all straight from the books) that is the Trolloc language?

The same way that D'jevik K'shar does.

One mayor difference being that one of those words is proven to be from before the Breaking that happens to be as close to the designing of the Trollocs as you can get. I suppose some Trolloc scolars worked day and night to make their own language and dictionairy?

 

Have you ever actually pronounced both words? And yes, I do realise this is thinner ice, because it becomes a matter of taste.

I realise my answer here is biased, but I find that one actually rolls off your tongue (bah-AHL-zah-mon).

The other one is much harsher (DJEH-vihk KEH-SHAHR).

 

Perhaps the name became associated with Trollocs because they used the name extensively during the Trolloc Wars for the first time again since the breaking of the world. Recent history might have also erroneously believed the name was in the Trolloc language as well.

 

Perhaps the name was used during the Breaking and the Trolloc Wars because the Trollocs gave it to Ishamael, in their own language.  You do know that "recent historians" in the World of the Wheel still speak the Old Tongue, right?  The way that many scholars today can still understand Latin.

Not many speak it, but most can read it.

 

You're just wrong man.  I showed you the correct Old Tongue forms for a name like "Heart of the Dark".  And it isn't anything resembling Ba'alzamon.  Which throws your entire theory, which was pretty weak to begin with, into the realm of complete hogwash.

You showed one way of saying it.

 

[Mik]

One mayor difference being that one of those words is proven to be from before the Breaking that happens to be as close to the designing of the Trollocs as you can get.

 

Rosel of Essam, who is indeed a woman (the only thing you got right) wrote 200 years AFTER THE BREAKING.  It would be helpful if you actually read the books.  Start in TDR Ch 21 where Verin actually describes what she found.

 

This is silly.  Believe what you want Mik.   ::)

I know RAW.

Don't have much time right now, but she made a direct translation of a document that survived the breaking of somewhere around onehundred pages long. And Verin said Rosel should know. Something along those lines. (and yes, I know it's from the Dream World chapter.. I quoted a part for crying out loud)

 

This changes nothing, because Rosel wrote a direct translation of a pre-breakigng document.

That means the name Ba'alzamon is older then the breaking. This means that either the Trollocs -you know.. too dumb to be soldiers constructs- either made their own language in well under 20 years. Or they were given..or used an Old Tongue nickname to describe Ishamael.

 

Ah well, RAW.

I'll just let it all slide again man.. I've got my views.. the rest of you have yours.

I don't want to sigh every time I visit this place...

I enjoyed it more just lurking around.

 

Cheerio

 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Note the difference? So there was a mistake in the EoTW & TGH Glossary in that sentence about Ba'alzamon. Wow!

And if there was a deliberate mistake there in the first place, what makes you guys so sure that the rest of it is right

We have reason to believe one bit of it is wrong, none at all to beliee the rest of it is. So why should we believe that it is?

 

Ba’alzamon (bah-AHL-zah-mon): In the Trolloc tongue, “Heart of the Dark.” Believed by most, erroneously, to be the Trolloc name for the Dark One. (TSR, Glossary)

 

Note the difference? So there was a mistake in the EoTW & TGH Glossary in that sentence about Ba'alzamon. Wow!

 

LMAO ... moron.

Now, now, RAW, there's no need to be insulting, there are many morons out there who have done nothing to you, and I think comparing them to Mik is a little harsh.

[Mr Ares]

We have reason to believe one bit of it is wrong, none at all to believe the rest of it is. So why should we believe that it is?

None of it was wrong. The name Ba'alzamon was believed by many to be the Trolloc's name for the Dark One. Thats all the first Glossaries said.

And that belief is wrong. Hence having reason to believe that bit is wrong. But we have no reason to believe that Ba'alzamon is anything other than Trolloc tongue.

[Roxinos]

And that belief is wrong. Hence having reason to believe that bit is wrong. But we have no reason to believe that Ba'alzamon is anything other than Trolloc tongue.

 

Yes, but "that bit" is not explicitly stated. Therefore, technically, nothing is wrong about the Glossary definition that didn't say "erroneously."

 

The belief is wrong, but the bit in the definition is not. That's the distinction RAW is talking about.

[Mr Ares]

Yes, but "that bit" is not explicitly stated.

Irrelevant. No-one is saying it is.

 

That's the distinction RAW is talking about.

I understand the distinction RAW is making. It just isn't relevant to my point.

[Roxinos]

Then your point isn't relevant to the discussion.

[Mr Ares]

Then your point isn't relevant to the discussion.

Given the discussion currently seems to be an attempt to prove that something I didn't say was incorrect, I'd say the discussion has lost any pretence at relevance to anything.

[Roxinos]

But we're not discussing something you did or didn't say at all. We're discussing something that Mik said in response to something that water_seeker and RAW said. That being, the glossary definition of Ba'alzamon being edited to include an "erroneously" and what Mik is suggesting the "erroneously" suggests and RAW (and I suppose yourself as well, though I'm honestly just lost as to the point of your posts at this point) trying to dissuade him and explain the point of the "erroneously."