Great Battle

[mb]

Nicola's Foretelling in Lord of Choas mentions a great battle.

This thread is to speculate what it will be.

 

To me it would happen before Tarmon Gaidon; though I am not entirely certain at this point.

I think more than 2 nations would be effected; though the other nations might not necessarily be allies or enemies with either of the main 2.  That or the battle would cover a big area.

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

I'd really be surprised if anything other than Tarmon Gai'don qualified as "the great battle".  Please note the use of the definite article.  There might be a lot that would qualify as "a great battle", but not "the great battle".

[Epic]

A great battle doesn't have to be Ragnarok or Armeggeden.  Also, by great do you mean really cool with maneuvres, high losses, a decisive victory.  For WoT battles in the books you could probably put down Blood Snow, Tarwin's Gap at the end of EotW(Rand destroying a line of charging Myrdraal with the Power, pretty badass), battle of Cairhien, Dumai's Well, Falme just seemed way to LotRish charge of Rohiriam, on the list you could probably only count the battles at either White or Black Towers.  Arad Doman will probably be a series of large skirmishes --> large numbers tightly concentrated on sideone against equally large numbers equally concentrated plus large numbers of damane tightly concentrated = lots of death for side one.  That's why Ituralde chose his raid tactic, easier to achieve local superiority of forces and quickly overwhelm damane, in big battles its harder to get at the damane without channelers; Ituralde has none and Rand wants a peace.  I think it'll be skirmishes because Ituralde is too smart to fight the Seanchan without channeler support and won't give them a pitched battle, but will pick at them until they're fed up.

[Mr Ares]

A great battle doesn't have to be Ragnarok or Armeggeden.

Maybe a great battle doesn't, but this is the great battle. Which can't reasonably be taken to mean anything other than TG. Also, aside from Dumai's Wells all the battles you list had already taken place by the time of the Foretelling in question.

[MikeRiley]

I say Tarmon Gai'don but I don't mean Rand's fight with the Dark One (or his champion), which I believe will happen separately at the end of TG. I mean the massive amounts of trollocs that are going to jump out of the ways all over the world and all the smaller battles with them tied into one. Pretty much all of Randland will be fighting at the same time. It isn't going to take a matter of hours for one Power fight between Rand and the Dark One.

 

Think if the Dark One was resealed and the True Power is cut off from the world, it would cause the shadowspawn to fall dead?

[Epic]

I was just talking about some great battles that had already happened and that I had particularly enjoyed reading. THE Great Battle will obviously be Tarmon Gai'don

[Hallow]

Looks like Mb is getting out voted on this one :p

[Majsju]

Looks like Mb is getting out voted on this one :p

Quelle surprise ;D

[Sab]

TG is the big batttle, everything else is just a side show for the most part since if Rand loses TG it won't matter who wins any other fight the land is screwed. 

[mb]

Looks like Mb is getting out voted on this one :p

The reason I did the poll was to see what everyone would think.  The results do not really matter since this poll would not change what will be written about it.

 

 

It might be likely that the great battle would be in some portion of Gathering Storm

 

Or if it is Tarmon Gaidon, "world not done with battle" might point to there being at least one cycle after.

I think there would not be any basis for there to be any more literal battles in the world after Tarmon Gaidon in this cycle since people would be changed at the moment the Dragon Reborn dies; several prophecies seem to indicate this.

 

[Majsju]

 

 

Or if it is Tarmon Gaidon, "world not done with battle" might point to there being at least one cycle after.

I think there would not be any basis for there to be any more literal battles in the world after Tarmon Gaidon in this cycle since people would be changed at the moment the Dragon Reborn dies; several prophecies seem to indicate this.

 

 

There is a lot of basis for quite a few battles after TG. A great deal of the established political order has been tossed out the window, and people tend to try to take advantage of such situations.

Just because the DO is defeated, people will not change their nature. We do not need Nicolas foretelling to know that there will be battles after TG. There will be wars, there will be suffering, there will be everything bad you can think of. Humanity does not need a DO to do evil things, we are exceptionally good at managing that all by ourselves.

[mb]

Or if it is Tarmon Gaidon, "world not done with battle" might point to there being at least one cycle after.

I think there would not be any basis for there to be any more literal battles in the world after Tarmon Gaidon in this cycle since people would be changed at the moment the Dragon Reborn dies; several prophecies seem to indicate this.

 

There is a lot of basis for quite a few battles after TG. A great deal of the established political order has been tossed out the window, and people tend to try to take advantage of such situations.

Just because the DO is defeated, people will not change their nature. We do not need Nicolas foretelling to know that there will be battles after TG. There will be wars, there will be suffering, there will be everything bad you can think of. Humanity does not need a DO to do evil things, we are exceptionally good at managing that all by ourselves.

Is there a prophecy that states there would be battles after Tarmon Gaidon?  So far I have not read any.

"sacrifice for man's salvation" (Shadow Rising Chapter 3) and maybe "twice dawns the day when his blood is shed" (Great Hunt Chapter 26) seem to indicate that mankind would be changed.

 

[Osan`gar]

Or if it is Tarmon Gaidon, "world not done with battle" might point to there being at least one cycle after.

I think there would not be any basis for there to be any more literal battles in the world after Tarmon Gaidon in this cycle since people would be changed at the moment the Dragon Reborn dies; several prophecies seem to indicate this.

 

There is a lot of basis for quite a few battles after TG. A great deal of the established political order has been tossed out the window, and people tend to try to take advantage of such situations.

Just because the DO is defeated, people will not change their nature. We do not need Nicolas foretelling to know that there will be battles after TG. There will be wars, there will be suffering, there will be everything bad you can think of. Humanity does not need a DO to do evil things, we are exceptionally good at managing that all by ourselves.

Is there a prophecy that states there would be battles after Tarmon Gaidon?  So far I have not read any.

"sacrifice for man's salvation" (Shadow Rising Chapter 3) and maybe "twice dawns the day when his blood is shed" (Great Hunt Chapter 26) seem to indicate that mankind would be changed.

 

 

you dont need a prophecy...Majsu is right. human nature, greed, and arrogance will mean wars to grasp the reins of power. especially if the dragon does indeed die.

[Majsju]

 

Is there a prophecy that states there would be battles after Tarmon Gaidon?  So far I have not read any.

"sacrifice for man's salvation" (Shadow Rising Chapter 3) and maybe "twice dawns the day when his blood is shed" (Great Hunt Chapter 26) seem to indicate that mankind would be changed.

 

 

Nicolas foretelling says flat out that there will be battles after TG, so yes.

The "salvation" you see mentioned refers to the defeat of the DO. If the DO won TG, mankind would be royally screwed, with the DO instead defeated, mankind will at least get the freedom to continue fighting eachother.

 

WOT is Not the Book of Revelations, where the rotten apples go away, and man gets to live in some kind of paradise. The victory over evil here means that man is allowed to continue with business as usual.

[water_seeker]

Although, won't the world eventually wind itself down to peaceful co-existence until another bore is drilled?  I seem to remember someone saying that swordfighting was a game (or sport) till war became a reality.  I also seem to remember a reference to war being an alien concept at some point.  I wish I could provide references...

[Mr Ares]

Although, won't the world eventually wind itself down to peaceful co-existence until another bore is drilled?  I seem to remember someone saying that swordfighting was a game (or sport) till war became a reality.  I also seem to remember a reference to war being an alien concept at some point.  I wish I could provide references...

That would be the Age immediately prior to the start of the series, the Age of Legends. In other words, a world without war is a long way off.

[Majsju]

Although, won't the world eventually wind itself down to peaceful co-existence until another bore is drilled?  I seem to remember someone saying that swordfighting was a game (or sport) till war became a reality.  I also seem to remember a reference to war being an alien concept at some point.  I wish I could provide references...

 

As Mr Ares said, that would be the AOL, ie the Age previous to the one we are reading about.

Before the AOL we had the 1st Age, which is supposed to be the world we are currently living in. And if you think that is a peaceful one, you might want to open a newspaper ;D

[Hallow]

Although, won't the world eventually wind itself down to peaceful co-existence until another bore is drilled?  I seem to remember someone saying that swordfighting was a game (or sport) till war became a reality.  I also seem to remember a reference to war being an alien concept at some point.  I wish I could provide references...

 

As Mr Ares said, that would be the AOL, ie the Age previous to the one we are reading about.

Before the AOL we had the 1st Age, which is supposed to be the world we are currently living in. And if you think that is a peaceful one, you might want to open a newspaper ;D

 

Or even better, go to the library and get a couple of history books :D

[mb]

Nicolas foretelling says flat out that there will be battles after TG, so yes.

Flat out says so?  You are assuming that the great battle is Tarmon Gaidon which we do not yet have proof of.

Can you find another prophecy that backs up the position of there being battles after Tarmon Gaidon?  Or can you link to where Robert Jordan told so?

 

Until there is proof, all we can do is guess.

 

[water_seeker]

My only point was that eventually there will be no war.  That it takes until the next AoL is of no importance.

 

And I only posted what I did in response to this...

 

Just because the DO is defeated, people will not change their nature. We do not need Nicolas foretelling to know that there will be battles after TG. There will be wars, there will be suffering, there will be everything bad you can think of. Humanity does not need a DO to do evil things, we are exceptionally good at managing that all by ourselves.

 

...to show that Humanity does finally change their nature (well, supress their nature, until the DO is reintorduced to change them back).

 

But ty, I wasn't sure which Age was supposed to be ours.  I thought maybe there was another age of peace before AoL, but of course if that was the case there would have to be something to mark the change from one Age to the other.  ;D

[RobertAlexWillis]

But ty, I wasn't sure which Age was supposed to be ours. I thought maybe there was another age of peace before AoL, but of course if that was the case there would have to be something to mark the change from one Age to the other.

 

LOL ... and you still shouldn't be sure which Age is supposed to be ours, since that is not clear at all, despite some people's assurances to the contrary.   ;)

 

There very well could be other Ages that are generally peaceful.  If humanity obtains, through technology or some other means, a state of general plenty, then in the cosmology of the Wheel, they would probably become peaceful, since the reasons for war (struggle over resources) would be removed.

 

That is the reason that things were peaceful in the Age of Legends; not some fundamental change in humanity.  People will fight over scarce resources whether the Dark One is influencing them or not.  Peace in times of universal plenty does not represent a change in humanity's nature.

 

So, no, humanity will not fundamentally change at the end of Tarmon Gai'don.  Any more than humanity changed at the end of the last "Tarmon Gai'don", or the one before that, or the one before that ....

[water_seeker]

Ty RAW, for ignoring the word suppress..because in that one word all of "they would probably become peaceful, since the reasons for war (struggle over resources) would be removed." was implied.

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

You missed my point.

 

Humanity is not "suppress"ing its nature by being peaceful in time of universal plenty.  When there is no need to struggle for resources, then humanity's nature is not to indulge in unnecessary war.  No suppression involved, at least not on a societal scale.

 

Humanity, on a societal scale, never does "suppress" its nature.  When resources are scarce, it is their nature to fight.  When resources are not, it is their nature to be peaceful.  So, times of peace, or times of war, are not the result of changes in humanity's nature, they are the result of the same nature responding to different stimulus.

 

I didn't ignore your word, water_seeker.  I disagreed with it.

[water_seeker]

When there is no need to struggle for resources, then humanity's nature is not to indulge in unnecessary war.

 

Um...society doesn't need a "struggle for resources" to find reason for war necessary or otherwise.  There are plenty of reasons for going to war, for good or for ill.  So really there would have to be a suppression of nature to overcome the other reasons for going to war.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Um...society doesn't need a "struggle for resources" to find reason for war necessary or otherwise.  There are plenty of reasons for going to war, for good or for ill.  So really there would have to be a suppression of nature to overcome the other reasons for going to war.

 

In the real world?  Maybe.  In the World of the Wheel?  Nope.

 

To quote:

 

It is easy to understand why major conflicts among people or classes did not exist in the Age of Legends.  Most of the motives for conflict had been eliminated: Worldwide economic stability had been established, removing any possibility of poverty or extreme financial inequality.  Food harvesting and distribution was enhanced by the high level of technology and the use of the One Power, eliminating starvation and even deprivation.

 

Guide, p.37

 

Without economic or survival motivations, conflicts rarely escalated beyond argument, usually solved through mediation.  As a result, the concept of war did not exist.

 

Guide, p. 38

 

Those are the descriptions of the reasons why the Age of Legends was peaceful.  Human nature didn't change.  The "motives for conflict had been eliminated".

 

Humans, as a group, simply don't suppress their nature.  We like to think that we do, of course.  We want to believe that we are rational, in control.  But usually, we're not.  We have the capacity for control.  We just don't often use it.