Tor's decision to split AMoL

[Vambram]

Tom and Harriet both have said they don't think he could have done it, or would have done it, given the chance.

 

Sadly, this is the point that too many of the complainers seem to either not understand, ignoring, or just not seeing in Brandon Sanderson's blogs about this.

 

 

[cfin5256]

Something else interesting from the Sanderson blog;

 

To get this into one book, I'd need to railroad the story from climax to climax. I'd have to ignore a lot of the smaller characters--and even some aspects of the larger characters. I just couldn't justify that. It wouldn't do the story justice. I cringed to consider what I would have to cut or ignore.

 

Perhaps I was wrong. Perhaps readers would have preferred a single, condensed volume so that they at least knew what happened. But I just couldn't do it. The Wheel of Time deserved better.

 

I personally don't care if was one book or three. It feels like I've spent the better part of 19 years waiting on new WoT books  ;), so I appreciate the opportunity to get the next installment this year. To me the bolded part is what it all boils down to; if it takes three books to ensure that we, as fans, see the series finished the way it deserves to be finished, then it's all good with me.

[safwd]

If all the complainers have the courage of their convictions to stand by their complaints and their belief that Robert Jordan would have been able to write A Memory of Light as only just one massive 1500 page book no matter what; then all of these complainers, who believe that they are the only ones true to RJ's vision when RJ's own WIFE is not, should be able to wait until sometime in 2011 for the Omnibus edition of these final three books to be published before reading these final stories.

Somehow, I truly doubt most of the complainers will be able to wait until 2011 to read books 12, 13, and 14.

 

 

The issue for this purist has nothing to do with the size or number of physical Why would I look forward to the omnibus? Are they going to rewrite it the way Jordan wanted?units the rest of the story comes in. The fact is that there is a finite amount of WoT material left on this planet. After this material is gone I don't care if they announce AMoL VOL XIV Mat Vs The Mecha Godzilla! http://www.kicksonfire.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/mechagodzilla.jpg

 

It's simple, formating for 3 books has to change the material Jordan left to some extent. The reasons we have for the split boil down to book stores don't like thick books and they are expensive to produce. That is not only unacceptable it's disrespectful to RJ as well as fans. With the economy the way it is tor just could not pass this up. A guaranteed best seller. And it could come out just in time for the holdays. I'm sure this version of AMoL will do wonders for their forth quarter earnings but not a cent of it will be from me. It's nothing but a shameful money grab.

[/quo

 

Sorry, but that makes no sense at all. There is no way at all to get this book (or books) the way that RJ would have written it. RJ died before he had even written a small portion of it. From everything that we have been told RJ wrote the last couple chapters in full and has a bunch of notes on basically everything else.

There is no possible way that this story will look exactly like what it would have looked like if RJ had written it. And yes, i am sad about that as well but that is the way it works.

If the complaint is still that RJ wanted it in one book, again that was RJ saying that before he had even dipped into the book. There is a very good chance that that would have gone straight out the window if he would have been able to finish it as well.

RJ was awesome, but if he would have brought Tor a 800,000 word book and wanted them to print it as is im pretty sure they would have told him no as well.

[safwd]

I still dont understand this.

 

RJ said that he wanted to write a trilogy called Wheel of Time.

RJ said that he wanted to story to be 6 books long.

RJ said that he wanted the story to be 10 books long.

How come when RJ says that he wants the series to end at 12 books it becomes the gospel?

 

As far as i have seen this wasnt a death bed wish that they are just ignoring, he said this with the intention of he himself writting the book. And as we see above, and as how RAW has pointed out again and again, RJ himself didnt seem to take his book deadlines all that seriously.

[Ludmian]

The rest has jest been recycling, so I won't repeat my arguments, but I did want to address this:

 

Not "just two more books". "At least two more books". Or rather it was "At least three more books" until CoT was published. And with AMoL it was "Just one more book". Do you see the difference?

 

He has given a limitation estimate the number of books before.  It was, at various points, "just" six books, and "just" one or two more.  So, the "difference" you're pointing out is a construct of your own point of view.  Jordan did create artificial limits in the past, and then break them, more than once.  This time is no different.

 

Again you are misrepresenting the facts, to put it mildly. And why am I not surprised?

 

Compuserve October 1994

 

Gordon B

 

Mr Jordan, are you still planing only 7 books in the series, and will the next book be released on the tradtitional dat of mid oct?

 

Robert Jordan

 

It's been a long time since I was planning only seven books in the series. There will be several more books, and the next one will be published when I can finish it. GA

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Compuserve_October_1994

 

First AOL Chat October 1994

 

Jdieu: Hello, just to say I LOVE your books, I was wondering how long you will continue the saga because I read in the prologue of the first book that the battle lasted about ten years? And it's only been about two up to the 6th book.

 

RJ: It will last several more books, until I reach the last scene, which has been in my head since the very beginning.

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/First_AOL_Chat_October_1994

 

Charleston, SC Post-ACOS Signing--21 June, 1996; report by Brian Ritchie.

 

There will be a few more books, some, not a lot, hopefully fewer than seven more.

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Charleston%2C_SC_Post-ACOS_Signing--21_June%2C_1996%3B_report_by_Brian_Ritchie.

 

Compuserve Chat June 1996

 

I do not know how many more books there will be. There will be at least ten total, probably more but the safest way to say that is to say "there will be a few more, not too many, and please god not as many as have already been written!"

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Compuserve_Chat_June_1996

 

Walden Books Interviews Robert Jordan: October, 1998

 

WBR: The Path of Daggers is Book Eight in the Wheel of Time series. Do you know how many more books there will be? Has that number changed in since you started writing The Wheel of Time? Do you have plans for a new or different type of series?

 

RJ: I believe—believe!—there will be three more books. I am trying to finish up as soon as possible, but I cannot see how to do it in fewer than three books. That isn’t a guarantee, mind!

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Walden_Books_Interviews_Robert_Jordan:_October%2C_1998

 

Barnes and Noble Chat October 19, 1998

 

Julia from wotism.org: How many books long do you think The Wheel of Time series will end up being? Do you have any idea how long it will take to finish writing the series?

 

RJ: I'm not really clear. When I finished A Crown of Swords, I said it would take me at least three books more to finish. Now that I have completed The Path of Daggers it looks like it will take me at least three more books to finish. believe me, guys, I'm trying as hard as I can to get there as fast as I can.

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Barnes_and_Noble_Chat_October_19%2C_1998

 

Barnes and Noble Chat November 11, 2000

 

MD Young from Plano, TX: In the chat before PoD, you said that you felt 3 more books were needed to complete the series. Are we down to 2 more books now, or has the series been pushed back to another book?

 

 

RJ: It still sits at 3 more books to finish, but I've always said from the time I began using the 3 books that it would be AT LEAST 3 books -- that I'd try to finish in at least 3 books, but I couldn't promise. I know that I couldn't possibly finish in fewer than 3. If I can finish in 3, I will. But that's what I'm hoping for, what I'm trying for. NOT a promise.

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Barnes_and_Noble_Chat_November_11%2C_2000

 

SciFi.com ChatNovember 14, 2000

 

Moderator: <samugi> to <Moderator>: With the storyline as it is now it seems unlikely that the new book will finish the series. How many more books do you feel will be in this series?

 

RobertJordan: There will be at least three more books

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/SciFi.com_ChatNovember_14%2C_2000

 

So you see, however much you are trying to misrepresent the facts RJ did not create artificial limits in the past. It has always been either "several more books" or "at least three more books". The difference should be obvious to everyone, unless you really want not to see it.

[Elgee]

RJ: It still sits at 3 more books to finish, but I've always said from the time I began using the 3 books that it would be AT LEAST 3 books -- that I'd try to finish in at least 3 books, but I couldn't promise. I know that I couldn't possibly finish in fewer than 3. If I can finish in 3, I will. But that's what I'm hoping for, what I'm trying for. NOT a promise.

etc etc

 

I've forgotten ... which side of the argument are you on, Ludmian?  :D

[cseresz]

And this is why...

 

When I'd mentioned 400k to him once, he'd been wary. He explained to me that he felt 400k was unprintably large in today's publishing market.

 

You would think that this is because of the size of the book and the difficutly involved in binding/handling such a book, but actually the reason for this is...

 

Things have changed since the 90's, and booksellers are increasingly frustrated with the fantasy genre, which tends to take up a lot of shelf space with very few books. There is constant pressure from the big chain bookstores to keep things smaller and thinner.

 

 

Reaper's Gale: Book Seven of The Malazan Book of the Fallen

Mass Market Paperback: 1280 pages

Publisher: Tor Fantasy; 1 Reprint edition (February 3, 2009)

 

There is no Reaper's Gale Vol. I.

There is no Reaper's Gale Vol. II.

There is no Reaper's Gale Vol. III.

 

 

When I'd turned in Mistborn 2 (revised and already trimmed) at 250k, production and marketing had nearly had a fit, complaining that the book would cost more to print than it would make.

 

Which means that it's really not even the publishers choice in the matter.

 

Which means that readers don't care about Mistborn.

[safwd]

And this is why...

 

When I'd mentioned 400k to him once, he'd been wary. He explained to me that he felt 400k was unprintably large in today's publishing market.

 

You would think that this is because of the size of the book and the difficutly involved in binding/handling such a book, but actually the reason for this is...

 

Things have changed since the 90's, and booksellers are increasingly frustrated with the fantasy genre, which tends to take up a lot of shelf space with very few books. There is constant pressure from the big chain bookstores to keep things smaller and thinner.

 

 

Reaper's Gale: Book Seven of The Malazan Book of the Fallen

Mass Market Paperback: 1280 pages

Publisher: Tor Fantasy; 1 Reprint edition (February 3, 2009)

 

There is no Reaper's Gale Vol. I.

There is no Reaper's Gale Vol. II.

There is no Reaper's Gale Vol. III.

 

 

When I'd turned in Mistborn 2 (revised and already trimmed) at 250k, production and marketing had nearly had a fit, complaining that the book would cost more to print than it would make.

 

Which means that it's really not even the publishers choice in the matter.

 

Which means that readers don't care about Mistborn.

 

 

 

You right, Reapers Gale is a big book. I read that the word count is about 400,000, around the same size as the two largest WoT books. So yes, they do still print books that large, but that doesnt mean they like to.

 

Also Brandon says he is looking at probably 800K plus words to end this story, so where do you break it? Or do you not break it and have a 2500 page book. That seems a little large to me.

 

So Brandon found what he thought was a good break at 300K words, still a big book. He sees another at around 600K so again a pretty big book. That leaves 200K words at least for the third novel with wiggle room for when he finds that 800K is still not enough.

 

Does anyone truely believe that with all the loose ends still out there in WoT that 3 books is not reasonable to tie them all up.

 

Trust me, if they were willing to print a 2500 page 800,000 word book to end it all i would buy the thing. And i would probably end up paying $100 for it.

 

Whatever the reason for the split (and yes, its probably largly to get more money out of the story) it is a done deal and we will deal with it and buy the three books or not. I will be one of the first in line for all three.

[Mr Ares]

RJ said that he wanted to write a trilogy called Wheel of Time.

RJ said that he wanted to story to be 6 books long.

RJ said that he wanted the story to be 10 books long.

How come when RJ says that he wants the series to end at 12 books it becomes the gospel?

I have asked people to provide quotes to support that. They never have. Funny, that. Every single RJ quote I can ever recall seeing on the issue is him saying hopefully this, probably that, no less than 3 more, at least, I don't really know, etc., etc., all boiling down to it will be as long as it needs to be. The one and only time, so far as anyone has been bothered to provide a quote to support, that he ever said how many books it would be was him saying Knife of Dreams was the penultimate book and the series would finish with A Memory of Light. You see the difference? He never said he wanted to write a trilogy, he said he wanted to write something and it would take at least three books, probably more. He never said he wanted to write a six book series, he said he thought he could do it in six but it would be as long as it needed to be. He never said he wanted to write a ten book series, he said at least ten books. He did say he wanted to finish in twelve books. He said AMoL would be as long as it needed to be, but he couldn't split it without harming the quality, because there was not enough to make two good books. So he insisted on one more, as long as it needed to be, but still one more. The only time he stuck a limit on the number, and people ignore it. Now, people keep saying that he planned a trilogy. Put up or shut up. I want to see an RJ quote saying he planned a trilogy, or I want people to accept the mass of quotes already provided saying as long as it needs to be.

 

I know most people have read Brandon's blog about the split, but it seems like alot of people still aren't getting it.

I can assure you, people get it.

 

When I'd mentioned 400k to him once, he'd been wary. He explained to me that he felt 400k was unprintably large in today's publishing market.

Which is crap.

 

Things have changed since the 90's, and booksellers are increasingly frustrated with the fantasy genre, which tends to take up a lot of shelf space with very few books. There is constant pressure from the big chain bookstores to keep things smaller and thinner.

Which is crap. Malazan's last three books have all been bigger, physically, than anything RJ wrote.

 

When I'd turned in Mistborn 2 (revised and already trimmed) at 250k, production and marketing had nearly had a fit, complaining that the book would cost more to print than it would make.

Which is because BS is (putting it bluntly) a nobody, while RJ is the biggest name Tor has. There is a bit of a difference between a guy most people had never heard of until he was announced as finishing this series and a guy with a string of bestsellers to his credit. Booksellers will be far happier to stock RJ over BS because RJ will make money.

 

And for those of you who think RJ wouldn't have made the same choice...

...we have a quote from his widow and friend saying he wouldn't.

But you are also splitting a book that Robert Jordan intended to be one book. (Tom and Harriet both have said they don't think he could have done it, or would have done it, given the chance.)

He couldn't split it, and wouldn't split it, given the chance. Now, I know some people don't understand what that quote says, they insist on some absurd alternative meaning. They seem to think that it means that RJ wouldn't make it one book, which is ridiculous. Think about it - if RJ was told by Tor that they were willing to print and publish a single volume AMoL, he would, according to these people, refuse. He would insist on it being split, despite his prior insistence on a single work, despite his previously stated belief that any such split would harm the quality of the work because he could not make two good books. Or, more reasonably, it could be taken to mean exactly what it says. That he could not bring himself to harm the quality of his work by splitting it, and if he was given a choice in the matter would refuse. That is what it says, and I give Sanderson credit for being able to say what he means. It says he would not split it, and it means he would not split it. I didn't know RJ. I wasn't his friend, I wasn't married to him. Nor, I suspect, were any of you. So when two of the people who knew him best said that he wouldn't split this book, I really don't see how it can be taken as anything other than as sure as can be that he wouldn't split it.

 

Tom and Harriet both have said they don't think he could have done it, or would have done it, given the chance.

 

Sadly, this is the point that too many of the complainers seem to either not understand, ignoring, or just not seeing in Brandon Sanderson's blogs about this.

Actually, as far as I'm aware I was the first on the board to highlight that quote. And, unfortunately some people, such as yourself, do have difficulty understanding it. Both Harriet and Tom say that they don't think RJ would have split this book. I think that is pretty clear. Also, your point about complainers having "the courage of their convictions" and so waiting for a possible (not certain) omnibus that might not be restructured into a single book is ridiculous. It would make more sense to withhold your money from Tor if you didn't like it. Don't punish yourself, punish them, as it were.

 

RJ: It still sits at 3 more books to finish, but I've always said from the time I began using the 3 books that it would be AT LEAST 3 books -- that I'd try to finish in at least 3 books, but I couldn't promise. I know that I couldn't possibly finish in fewer than 3. If I can finish in 3, I will. But that's what I'm hoping for, what I'm trying for. NOT a promise.

etc etc

 

I've forgotten ... which side of the argument are you on, Ludmian?  :D

Why did you pick out that particular quote? After all, Ludmian has a whole post full of RJ quotes saying that he didn't know how many more books it would be. He also posted one of RJ saying it would be one more, because if he split it he would not be able to produce two good books. Why the confusion? Ludmian is perfectly consistent. Before his insistence on one more book (AMoL) he didn't make promises about the number of books.

But unlike other accounts, he said at this point, it is not possible for him to write two more coherent books. He said he might get one coherent book, and one incoherent, or two semi-coherent, so tWoT would be finished by book 12.

You see the difference between previous statements and this one?

 

Personally, I agree with Werthead that they should wait until the book has been written, then make decisions about how to split it. And publish the volumes close to each other, if not at once.

[Elgee]

I picked that particular quote, because it is the one that most represented the argument that he MIGHT NOT have done it in only one book, in the end, and I therefore found it humourous that Luddy used it. I did also say "etc etc" after that quote. Maybe you missed that?

 

 

But you are also splitting a book that Robert Jordan intended to be one book. (Tom and Harriet both have said they don't think he could have done it, or would have done it, given the chance.)

 

I bolded "it", because this whole argument (for some people, at least), is about exactly what is meant by "it". You interpret it one way, I interpret it another. Without the author explaining exactly what he meant by "it", we can only interpret, not state categorically (unless one of us is psychic  :P). I fully acknowledge the possibility that I could be wrong, and you correct. Can you do likewise?

 

I can understand your irritation with some of the theories presented on here. Sometimes I want to say to some of those with the more "far out" interpretations: "man, whatever it is you're smoking, you're scaring and not sharing".  Biting sarcasm and and overbearing condescension does not give one's opinion any added weight, though.

[Ludmian]

I picked that particular quote, because it is the one that most represented the argument that he MIGHT NOT have done it in only one book, in the end, and I therefore found it humourous that Luddy used it. I did also say "etc etc" after that quote. Maybe you missed that?

 

Sorry, Elgee, but it did not. I posted those quotes in response to those people who say that RJ constantly gave promises to finish WoT in a definite number of books and then changed his mind, so his decision to finish the series with AMoL is not different from other cases. Mr Ares is absolutely right. The quotes show that RJ has never done such a thing. When he said that the series would end with book 12 it was the first time he was definite about the number of books in the series, and he gave reasons why AMoL will be the last book in the series even if it has to be very  long. So this particular case is different from the others, however much some people here want to prove otherwise.

[Vambram]

I will say this again and again, until you complainers can understand this message. Do you people honestly believe you know better than RJ's WIFE!!! What is the best decision to make as to the publishing of AMOL???? Now, if you can sit there and honestly say that you know better than RJ's wife, and his editor, Harriet, then I believe I got a bridge to the moon that I can sell you.

[Vambram]

Tom and Harriet both have said they don't think he could have done it, or would have done it, given the chance.

 

Sadly, this is the point that too many of the complainers seem to either not understand, ignoring, or just not seeing in Brandon Sanderson's blogs about this.

Actually, as far as I'm aware I was the first on the board to highlight that quote. And, unfortunately some people, such as yourself, do have difficulty understanding it. Both Harriet and Tom say that they don't think RJ would have split this book. I think that is pretty clear.

No, what they said is that they don't believe RJ would have decided to print one massive 800K word, 1500 page book. How many 1500 page Hardcover novels are there in bookstores? Very few, if any.

 

Also, your point about complainers having "the courage of their convictions" and so waiting for a possible (not certain) omnibus that might not be restructured into a single book is ridiculous. It would make more sense to withhold your money from Tor if you didn't like it. Don't punish yourself, punish them, as it were.

I agree. If you honestly believe that you know better than Harriet and Tom what Robert Jordan would have done... if you truly believe that, then do not buy anything more from Tor. However, if any of the complainers whom are complaining about Harriet & Tom, and Brandon Sanderson are naive enough to think they know better about all of this than do this trio, then I want to offer up a bridge to the moon for your investment dollars.

[Roxinos]

...one massive 800K word, 1500 page book.

 

Not really commenting on anything but this:

 

Lord of Chaos was the second longest novel in the series at 389,264 words. It was, however, the longest in terms of pages at 1,024. (Heh, a megabyte.)

 

Rounding up to 400,000 words, you can assume that a full, non-split A Memory of Light, if simply 800,000 words, would be upwards of 2,000 pages.

 

It's not really disagreeing with you or agreeing. Just clarifying.

 

This stat does, of course, have some leeway for font, font size, page size, etc.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I posted those quotes in response to those people who say that RJ constantly gave promises to finish WoT in a definite number of books and then changed his mind, so his decision to finish the series with AMoL is not different from other cases. Mr Ares is absolutely right. The quotes show that RJ has never done such a thing. When he said that the series would end with book 12 it was the first time he was definite about the number of books in the series, and he gave reasons why AMoL will be the last book in the series even if it has to be very  long. So this particular case is different from the others, however much some people here want to prove otherwise.

 

It just goes to show how two allegedly intelligent people can read exactly the same words and get different meanings out of them.

 

Or I'm an idiot with an agenda ...

 

That last one is probably the most comfortable for you, Ludmian, so we'll go with that, mm'kay?

 

To reiterate, if you assume that RJ's comment on this being the last book was his one and only most important requirement, the sum total of all his wishes, then what you are saying makes sense.  If you acknowledge the complexity of reality, then it doesn't.

 

The argument that Robert Jordan consistently expanded his length estimates is only one part of the objection to your narrow minded, self-centered assessment that RJ's "wishes" match your idea of what they should be, so that you can get what you want, how you want it.  I figure since you're questioning everyone else's integrity here, we might as well take a gander at yours.  You want the story how YOU conceived that it would be, and if anyone objects, whether it is the people who were closest to Jordan in life and in this work, or anyone else, then you say they're raping his legacy for profit.

 

Pathetic.  And while I addressed you directly, Ludmian, I certainly include everyone else who holds the same type of opinion, including, in the case, the normally venerable Mr Ares.

[Vambram]

...one massive 800K word, 1500 page book.

 

Not really commenting on anything but this:

 

Lord of Chaos was the second longest novel in the series at 389,264 words. It was, however, the longest in terms of pages at 1,024. (Heh, a megabyte.)

 

Rounding up to 400,000 words, you can assume that a full, non-split A Memory of Light, if simply 800,000 words, would be upwards of 2,000 pages.

 

It's not really disagreeing with you or agreeing. Just clarifying.

 

This stat does, of course, have some leeway for font, font size, page size, etc.

I was talking about the approximinate number of pages it would take for an 800K book in an Hardcover edition, because I have all of the WOT books in Hardcover, my friend. .. a 1500 page Hardcover book is truly massive, and bigger than just about anything that one can find these days in the bookstores.

[Roxinos]

I was talking about the approximinate number of pages it would take for an 800K book in an Hardcover edition, because I have all of the WOT books in Hardcover, my friend.

 

Lovely. And the hardcover edition of Knife of Dreams has only 32 pages fewer than the paperback edition. At 761 pages and 315,163 words, it is the fourth longest in terms of words. So multiply that by 2.67 (roughly how many times more words 800,000 is from 300,000 words) and you get ~2,032 pages.

 

Of course, as I said before, this number still leaves a good deal of leeway for font, font size, page size, etc. I see it ranging between 1,800 and 2,100 pages.

 

Edit: And again, I'm not trying to discredit your point. I agree that a 2,000 or 1,500 page book would be monstrous in hardcover or paperback.

[Vambram]

And again, I'm not trying to discredit your point. I agree that a 2,000 or 1,500 page book would be monstrous in hardcover or paperback.

 

Agreed.

[Ludmian]

I posted those quotes in response to those people who say that RJ constantly gave promises to finish WoT in a definite number of books and then changed his mind, so his decision to finish the series with AMoL is not different from other cases. Mr Ares is absolutely right. The quotes show that RJ has never done such a thing. When he said that the series would end with book 12 it was the first time he was definite about the number of books in the series, and he gave reasons why AMoL will be the last book in the series even if it has to be very  long. So this particular case is different from the others, however much some people here want to prove otherwise.

 

It just goes to show how two allegedly intelligent people can read exactly the same words and get different meanings out of them.

 

Or I'm an idiot with an agenda ...

 

That last one is probably the most comfortable for you, Ludmian, so we'll go with that, mm'kay?

 

To reiterate, if you assume that RJ's comment on this being the last book was his one and only most important requirement, the sum total of all his wishes, then what you are saying makes sense.  If you acknowledge the complexity of reality, then it doesn't.

 

The argument that Robert Jordan consistently expanded his length estimates is only one part of the objection to your narrow minded, self-centered assessment that RJ's "wishes" match your idea of what they should be, so that you can get what you want, how you want it.  I figure since you're questioning everyone else's integrity here, we might as well take a gander at yours.  You want the story how YOU conceived that it would be, and if anyone objects, whether it is the people who were closest to Jordan in life and in this work, or anyone else, then you say they're raping his legacy for profit.

 

Pathetic.  And while I addressed you directly, Ludmian, I certainly include everyone else who holds the same type of opinion, including, in the case, the normally venerable Mr Ares.

 

What "complexity of reality" should I accept? I guess by "the complexity of reality" you mean your own misrepresentations of the facts. You said that RJ constantly promised to finish the series in "just two more books". When I mentioned that RJ never did that you insisted on your false statement. I've found lots of quotes that show that RJ never put artificial limits on the number of books (though, of course, he did underestimate the length of the series in the beginning). It has always been "several more books", "hopefully, fewer than seven", "maybe, ten, but that's not a promise", "at least three more", etc.  So the case with AMoL was definitely different from all his previous estimations. Instead of either admitting that you were wrong or ignoring the posts I made that prove you are wrong (which would be understandable) you choose to directly attack me using words like "pathetic", "narrow-minded" etc. Will you, please, find at least a couple of quotes from the time before CoT where RJ says something like "I promise you to finish the series in just two more books and no more?" After that you can call me whatever you wish.

 

I want the series to end as closely to how RJ wanted it to end as possible. Yes, that is a very self-centered opinion. I don't know who played the main part in Tor's questionable decisions and I don't really care if it's for profit or not (though their motives seem to be rather clear), but it does look like RJ's legacy is being raped.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

I want the series to end as closely to how RJ wanted it to end as possible. Yes, that is a very self-centered opinion. I don't know who played the main part in Tor's questionable decisions and I don't really care if it's for profit or not (though their motives seem to be rather clear), but it does look like RJ's legacy is being raped.

 

It isn't, unless you're daring to say that Brandon and Harriet are writing a completely different story from the one that RJ intended to right.  If you are, then good luck to you.

[Mr Ares]

I picked that particular quote, because it is the one that most represented the argument that he MIGHT NOT have done it in only one book, in the end, and I therefore found it humourous that Luddy used it. I did also say "etc etc" after that quote. Maybe you missed that?

No, I saw your "etc etc", but you still missed RJ's repeated lack of promises, followed by a promise. To say that there is no difference between a series of non-promises as to length and a promise as to length is a little bit strange. Saying RJ did things differently in the past, made an estimate and revised it, is a bit different to him promising one more book, and giving his reason for one more as being that he couldn't split it without harming the quality. So Ludmian is consistent in his argument. Maybe you just didn't read his posts?

 

But you are also splitting a book that Robert Jordan intended to be one book. (Tom and Harriet both have said they don't think he could have done it, or would have done it, given the chance.)

I bolded "it", because this whole argument (for some people, at least), is about exactly what is meant by "it". You interpret it one way, I interpret it another. Without the author explaining exactly what he meant by "it", we can only interpret, not state categorically (unless one of us is psychic  :P). I fully acknowledge the possibility that I could be wrong, and you correct. Can you do likewise?

I can say that BS might not have been clear in his meaning, might not have said what he meant, but what he actually said can only reasonably be taken one way. Some say "it" can be splitting the book, or producing just one book. Fine. But RJ intended one book, the quote is clear on that, I'm sure there are no disagreements. So, if he intended one book, and was given the chance to have it as one book, he wouldn't do "it" (have one book). That is your explanation. And it doesn't make sense. How can he have intended one book and still refuse it given the opportunity? If he was told by his publishers that they were willing to produce a 2,000 page AMoL, he would insist the book was split? It really does not make sense. On the other hand, saying he intended one book and he would produce one book given the chance, if refusing a split was an option it would be the option he took, that does make sense. I just do not see how you were able to mangle the english language in order to get anything else out of that. I would really like someone to try and explain how they came to the conclusion that given RJ's intention to make one book he would have split it if he was given the opportunity to produce a single volume edition. What BS said cannot reasonalby be taken to mean anything other than Harriet and Tom both agree that RJ would not have split the book.

 

Biting sarcasm and and overbearing condescension does not give one's opinion any added weight, though.

The fact that I actually read what BS wrote, not I would have liked him to have said, does though.

 

Tom and Harriet both have said they don't think he could have done it, or would have done it, given the chance.

 

Sadly, this is the point that too many of the complainers seem to either not understand, ignoring, or just not seeing in Brandon Sanderson's blogs about this.

Actually, as far as I'm aware I was the first on the board to highlight that quote. And, unfortunately some people, such as yourself, do have difficulty understanding it. Both Harriet and Tom say that they don't think RJ would have split this book. I think that is pretty clear.

No, what they said is that they don't believe RJ would have decided to print one massive 800K word, 1500 page book. How many 1500 page Hardcover novels are there in bookstores? Very few, if any.

The precise length, and how many books of that length are out there, are beside the point. Read what was said. Read it, and keep reading till you get it right. RJ intended one book, right? Yet, according to your interpretation, if Tom Doherty said to him that Tor was quite willing to publish AMoL as one book, he would say no. How do you square those two facts? RJ's intentions, and the fact that even if they were willing to go along with it, unlikely though that might seem, he would refuse? It does not make sense. On the other hand, RJ intended one book, and (according to the correct interpretation) he wouldn't have split it if he was given the opportunity to publish it as one book. He was very much against splitting this book.

 

If you honestly believe that you know better than Harriet and Tom what Robert Jordan would have done... if you truly believe that, then do not buy anything more from Tor.

Given that Harriet and Tom have both said they don't think RJ would have, could have, split the book, I take it you will not be buying TGS? After all, if they say he wouldn't do it, and you think he would, then you think you know better than them what he would have done, and if you had the courage of your convictions you would refuse to buy anything else from Tor.

 

It just goes to show how two allegedly intelligent people can read exactly the same words and get different meanings out of them.

 

Or I'm an idiot with an agenda ...

Well, you are usually much smarter than this, RAW. We have repeated statements from him refusing to make promises about number of books. Then we have a promise about number of books. The two are clearly different. Now, he may not have stuck to that promise, he might have split the book later, he might have decided he was wrong and that he could split it without leaving himself without harming the overall quality of the work, but let's put that to one side for the moment. Simple question: Is there a difference between a refusal to make a promise as to the number of books in the series and a promise about the number of books in the series? Yes, there is. So going by what RJ did in the past is misleading as his lack of promises in the past is already different to his promise for one more book.

 

Another simple question: How honest was RJ? By which I mean, if he made a promise, would he stick to it no matter what? Answer, I don't know. Maybe some of you have evidence of promises he has broken, maybe not. So we cannot say that just because he promised one book, he would deliver. Quite simply, it may have been beyond him.

 

So, was a single book the most important thing to him? No. I don't believe so. That it was important to him cannot really be denied, not by any reasonable person acquainted with the evidence, but there is nothing to suggest it was of such paramount importance that it would outweigh all other factors. For example, look at his reason for one book - he couldn't split it without harming the quality of the work. If the only way to get a single volume was to condense the work, then he would presumably have resisted this one the grounds that if the condensed version was actually better he would have gone with it. So an AMoL that is complete, but in two volumes, would appear to be preferable to one incomplete in one. Furthermore, having it finished was of greater importance to him than that he should finish it. So what if he was presented with a stark choice between splitting the book and it not being published? I think that he would publish the book. He might press for the volumes as close together as possible, he might request a limited edition single volume edition, he would almost certainly have fought for one volume, he might even have asked someone else, such as Harriet, to split it on his behalf as he really couldn't bring himself to do it. We don't know. What we do know is that he didn't want to split this book, and would have resisted it, and if he could have put it all in one book, he would.

 

RAW, you insulting everyone who disagrees with you gets your argument nowhere. Usually, you're better than this. I don't agree that RJ's legacy is being raped for profit, although profit has certainly been a factor in their decisions. But is it really for the best to start splitting up an unwritten book? Is it really for the best to give a year between the release of each volume, or to restructure it into a trilogy? Now, they have reasons, and some of those reasons are good. But going against RJ's wishes to such an extent, doing something they know he wouldn't like? I think they have allowed their desire for a WoT book in 09 to overcome all else, or at least that's how it seems. The quality of The Gathering Storm and the other books remains to be seen, whether or not this is for the best we will never know, and never agree on. Whether or not this is what RJ would have wanted though? Absolutely not. I stand by belief that it would be best to wait for the whole thing to ber finished before making the final decision about how many books it will be split into, what (if any) restructuring will be done on those volumes, how close together they will be released. If you want to call me narrow minded, fine. You can call me whatever you want but it won't make it so. But the fact that this is very much against RJ's wishes remains.

[Majsju]

Another simple question: How honest was RJ? By which I mean, if he made a promise, would he stick to it no matter what? Answer, I don't know. Maybe some of you have evidence of promises he has broken, maybe not. So we cannot say that just because he promised one book, he would deliver. Quite simply, it may have been beyond him.

 

Thing is, RJ never promised that AMOL would be a single volume. He said he would fight if TOR tried to split it, but he never gave any guarantees or promises that he would actually win that fight. He could not possibly have made any such promises, beause he did not know how long AMOL would be in the end. And if RJ had one weakness as a writer, it was him constantly underestimating just how many words it would take to tell the story he wanted to tell.

 

I stand by belief that it would be best to wait for the whole thing to ber finished before making the final decision about how many books it will be split into, what (if any) restructuring will be done on those volumes, how close together they will be released.

 

There will be no major "restructuring". The different archs we have in the books are tied to eachother, and must play it in a certain way so that people are where they need to be when they need to be. And I am quite convinced we can trust that Harriet, who have edited every single book in WOT, have a better understanding for this than any living person on the planet. If she thinks this works, noone here is in any position to question that.

[Mr Ares]

There will be no major "restructuring".

I never said major, but there has already been restructuring.

 

Thing is, RJ never promised that AMOL would be a single volume. He said he would fight if TOR tried to split it, but he never gave any guarantees or promises that he would actually win that fight.

But unlike other accounts, he said at this point, it is not possible for him to write two more coherent books. He said he might get one coherent book, and one incoherent, or two semi-coherent, so tWoT would be finished by book 12.

He said finished by book 12, not that he would fight for it to be finished by book 12.

[Majsju]

There will be no major "restructuring".

I never said major, but there has already been restructuring.

 

The kind of "restructuring" that most writers do, moving small things around to improve the flow of the books.

However, I get the feeling that some people who bring up the "restructuring" have the idea that RJ made some kind of sacred structure for the exact order every little detail should happen, and that Brandon now violates that.

Keep things in perspective.

 

He said finished by book 12, not that he would fight for it to be finished by book 12.

 

Irrelevant. If the book is split, it still is one book content-wise. Only the package has changed.

WOT will be finished with book 12, simple as that.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Will you, please, find at least a couple of quotes from the time before CoT where RJ says something like "I promise you to finish the series in just two more books and no more?"

 

You've supplied the quotes yourself, Ludmian.  Just because he didn't use the words "I promise" doesn't change the fact that it was, indeed, his intention to complete the series in far fewer books than we already have.  Again, you are latching onto a slight difference in wording, and pretending that it is the one and only indicator of everything that Robert Jordan wanted.

 

Well, you are usually much smarter than this, RAW. We have repeated statements from him refusing to make promises about number of books. Then we have a promise about number of books. The two are clearly different

 

The intent was always the same.  The wording was different because of external circumstances.  He was being pressed harder to finish, he was more desperate to finish (there were other things he wanted to write), and then he was dying.  It is the refusal to acknowledge that these other circumstances affected his wording, and that circumstances WHICH DO NOT NOW APPLY, AND WHICH WERE NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF WHAT HE IDEALLY MAY HAVE WANTED, were behind the idea onto which you are latching AS IF IT IS THE ONE AND ONLY PARAMOUNT WISH HE HAD REGARDING HIS LIFE'S WORK, which I find objectionable.

 

That was an awful sentence, and I hope you can work your way through it, but those are the things which are being ignored by your arguments.

 

Which is short-sighted and absurd. 

 

You claim that that is not what you are saying, but it is the only basis for the kind of complaints being registered.  You are normally more self-honest than this.  This isn't about what RJ wanted.  Its about what you want.

 

RAW, you insulting everyone who disagrees with you gets your argument nowhere.

 

LOL ... seriously, Monseigneur Ninurta, what does get any argument anywhere?  You're acting like anyone in here has ever actually changed their mind about something because of the presentation of a reasonable argument.  ::)

 

The only reason that I am upset is because people are crassly assigning the basest of motives to people who have demonstrated, to me, nothing but integrity.  The sheer arrogance necessary to assume that you, or Ludmian, or I, or anyone else knows more than Harriet about what Jim Rigney's intentions were, and what his wishes would be, is stunning even to me, and I am on occasion a monument to arrogance.  So when I am appalled by someone else's arrogance, that is saying something, and I have been increasingly appalled here.

 

So, was a single book the most important thing to him? No. I don't believe so. That it was important to him cannot really be denied, not by any reasonable person acquainted with the evidence, but there is nothing to suggest it was of such paramount importance that it would outweigh all other factors.

 

And yet, that is the only reasonable basis for the kind of complaining being done here.  Because if there were other factors more important (like the overall integrity of the story), then Harriet and others are not "going against his wishes".

 

But is it really for the best to start splitting up an unwritten book? Is it really for the best to give a year between the release of each volume, or to restructure it into a trilogy?

 

I don't know.  More importantly, YOU don't know.  The people who have the information necessary to make the decision have done so.

 

It may be that after all the books are published and read, we'll look back and conclude that it was unnecessary and a mistake.  But reaching that conclusion before you've ever seen it, on the sole basis that it violates one (among many) of the author's stated intentions, is unwarranted arrogance of the first order.

 

And questioning the motives of the people involved, on that basis, is even worse, in my opinion.  I'm not talking about Tor, of course they are milking it for profit.  But remember, unless Brandon blatantly lied, he is the one who dictated the higher word count to Tor, not the other way around.

 

I stand by belief that it would be best to wait for the whole thing to ber finished before making the final decision about how many books it will be split into, what (if any) restructuring will be done on those volumes, how close together they will be released. If you want to call me narrow minded, fine. You can call me whatever you want but it won't make it so. But the fact that this is very much against RJ's wishes remains.

 

And I stand by my opinion that the information you have is not enough to make this unwarranted claim.  This claim only makes sense if you make the assumptions that you have explicitly denied making, namely, that his desire to complete the series in one and only one book was his PARAMOUNT desire.

 

Your arguments are self-contradictory.  Not that you're going to change your mind because of that.