Dragon's Eggs' effectiveness during TG

[Bela]

I am just closing off on my latest re-read with KOD and I got to the chapter when Mat solves the riddle and talks to Aludra about the Dragon's eggs. I then started thinking about TG and other battles they may be used in, and starting wondering about how effective they will actually be against an army that has channelers. Most multi-channeler battles we have seen have had the channelers throwing fireballs and lightnings back and forth between themselves. What is to stop them making a shield of air to stop the eggs coming at them, or weave a net of air right in front of the barrel and have the Dragon destroy itself. You would have to have channelers dedicated to stopping those attempts, which pretty much defeats the purpose anyways because one channeler would be much more effective than the dragons. The only way I see this working is if Elayne found out how to make Mat's fox necklace and made each ball a Ter'angreal that ate weaves. I don't know, I realize that there are not going to be hundreds of thousands of channelers at TG, but with one guy trying to take those out....

 

Anyways, thoughts? Ways to protect the Dragons from channelers? I am sure RJ must have found a way around this but I have no more ideas than the ones I put forth.

[Ziggdiezan]

They can be launched miles, and lob so they can be hidden behind a ridge and hit you from crazy distances. good for sneak attacks and if you are in the middle of a battle/fighting other casters you wouldnt stop to be like o lets stop that egg looking thing. if you did the channerler you were facing could just kill you becuase you were distracted.

[Bela]

Channelers can still strike out from miles away, it just saps their strength faster. Hidden behind a ridge would be helpful but lightnings should be able to solve that. You also have to realize that the Shadow has generals as great as Gareth Bryne and Rodel Ituralde and even close to Mat, and are unlikely to let themselves continue to be destroyed by eggs. :)

 

Like I mentioned before, multi-channeler battles have been nothing like the 1-on-1s we see. The channelers are not in an epic struggle with weapons of spirit, they are throwing fireballs miles. While TG will obviously be different I don't see how those 1-on-1s will be fought. Two channelers utterly focused on each other will likely have their throats cut. Ratios will probably be like 25000 soldiers to 1 channeler.

[Kaznen]

Also there are no weaves to see and unravel.  The AM and damane were haveing a problem fighting each other in PoD because they couldn't see the weaves being woven, so they didn't know what to expect.  And Mat and Ituralde figured out the damane needed to be killed ASAP, so they were the archers first targets, and they stand out.

 

And it would be hard to see a ten pound bouncy ball flying at you at 50+ mph so they would be hard to catch.  And Mat commented at 2 miles the enemy could barely see them.  And you need to see the target to channle at it.

[Bela]

Holding the power increases your senses. I am sure everyone is going to be full to the brim that day. There are also looking glasses. If you can see the cannons you can destroy them, and they will produce puffs of smoke which will be easier to locate them. In any case, if they couldn't see them because they were hidden behind a ridge, they would realize that something was launching eggs at them and could easily erect a 100 span x 100 span wall of air. Also at two miles you would be able to see a cannon  ball coming at you regardless of any speed possible with a gunpowder launch. Aiming at a channeler 2000 spans away is unlikely with a primitive weapons system like a dragon, and impossibly with a bow.

[mb]

The books say that the shields cannot stop balefire.

There is a rod that can produce balefire, though I am not sure if the rod requires channeling or not; I suspect that it does require channeling.

 

About the foxhead medallion, it protects from only direct weaves not from indirect ones; and it has to touch a person's skin.

 

[Bela]

Channelers can still strike out from miles away, it just saps their strength faster.

 

Actually, only a few of the very strongest can do that ... and almost none unless they have angreal or sa'angreal.

 

Also, there will be plenty of fights without channelers in them.  Channelers are like most "magic" types in the tactical sense ... if only one side has them, its a huge advantage, but if both sides do, then they end up spending so much time countering each other that they often end up canceling each other out, in the tactical sense.

 

Rand, Egwene, and Aviendha were effective in breaking the siege of Cairhien mostly because Couladin had no channelers (until one of the Forsaken took a shot at the end, which ended Rand's effectiveness).  Those conditions will probably not appertain during Tarmon Gai'don.

 

Believe me, if Mat can get something resembling true cannons by Tarmon Gai'don (which will be a little problematic, actually) they will be VERY effective, even in what we would call standard deployments.  They would be REALLY effective behind the Heroes, who are immune to the Power when called by the Horn.

 

They can link. We have no idea what TG will be like, if it is one big battle there will be channelers there, and Rand will obviously go after Shayol Gul which likely will have a big battle WITH channelers. Like I said before, countering each other only takes so much effort, when someone sees cannon balls taking out their ranks, they WILL do something. You seem to think the shadow is stupid.

 

 

 

 

The books say that the shields cannot stop balefire.

There is a rod that can produce balefire, though I am not sure if the rod requires channeling or not; I suspect that it does require channeling.

 

About the foxhead medallion, it protects from only direct weaves not from indirect ones; and it has to touch a person's skin.

 

 

How is balefire relevant, I doubt either side will use it.

 

As for the foxhead medallion, I wasn't talking about creating something exactly like it, but something similar. It is hardly likely that anyone could stop a cannon ball with an indirect weave.

[Dark Justice]

I think you underestimate the ammount of consentration that is needed to counter a weave you cannot see.. If there is a huge scale channeler battle going on, I doubt they can even start to think about countering the dragon eggs. And making a shield dome isnt really a good option, since you cant channel out of them. (yes, you can balefire, but not even the DO wants the pattern to unravel, since there would be no world to take over...)

[Bela]

There is no underestimation going on. Like RAW said only the strongest channelers can use proximity weaves over long distances, but any channeler can hit a fireball with a weave of air and launch it two miles. If you have a shield up, there is no need for concentration. The dragon's eggs will be ineffective once the soldiers/trollocs start mingling, so the shadow casting a shield until they DO mingle seems an easy counter to the dragons.

 

If they do use the dragons in small scale battles before any big battle the element of surprise and their usefulness will be null. The shadow will counter those right away. Like I said before, many of the forsaken are experienced generals and will not let something like the dragons tear them apart.

[Dark Justice]

for experienced generals, not really.. Demandred is the only one left.

[Bela]

Well, first of all, the leadership of the Shadow has shown itself to be pretty stupid, so far.

 

Just unorganized, far from stupid.

 

Second, the Shadow doesn't care about casualties, so as long as the channelers themselves aren't getting shot up, eliminating the Dragons won't be a huge priority.

 

They will certainly care about casualties in a large scale battle. The dragons will take out channelers too.

 

Third, you completely avoided the fact that they could be deployed behind/along with the Heroes, who are immune to the Power no matter how many are linked.

 

That WOULD be effective. But there are only so many dragons that could be placed in a group of 100 people.

 

Finally, in terms of sheer numbers, the Light should have more channelers.

 

Nothing to support this. We have no idea just how large the black ajah is. How many of the sea folk/kin/wise one channelers are darkfriends, or how many of Taim's friends will go to the dark. Also for all we know, however unlikely, that shadow could have its own tower in the making, calling DF's to learn.

 

The truth is, until we see exactly how the situation lines up, we can't say for sure whether the Dragons would be effective or not.  But there are plenty of likely situations in which they would be.

 

Agreed.

 

Um, lightning can do real damage to artillery lines.  Just like it did to Mat in Caemlyn.

 

That is what I was saying, it's a good way to take out the cannons. I was talking about putting the weaves on the actual cannon balls or eggs though, it would be hard to lightning those.

 

 

for experienced generals, not really.. Demandred is the only one left.

 

Demandred is the only one we know of, there is alot going on behind the shadows lines that we know nothing of.

 

 

[Dark Justice]

Well, It seems pretty certain that the major generals of this time is on the side of the light.

Also the DO seems to prefer to use channelers as generals. He might have a bunch of channelers on his side, but I cant see any good generals.

[Bela]

Davram Bashere may be a DF. As for the DO only using channelers as generals is entirely theory, we have no supporting evidence of that. They seem to act more as commanders than Generals anyway. For all we know the DO himself could command and lead the armies of the dark.

[Dark Justice]

I personally think that is far fetched. I have still not seen any evidence to back up that theory.

[Bela]

He is an odd character. I don't want him to be a DF but it is possible. There are inconsistencies in his character that point towards it, foremost is Min's dark viewing of him.

[CUBAREY]

Holding the power increases your senses. I am sure everyone is going to be full to the brim that day. There are also looking glasses. If you can see the cannons you can destroy them, and they will produce puffs of smoke which will be easier to locate them. In any case, if they couldn't see them because they were hidden behind a ridge, they would realize that something was launching eggs at them and could easily erect a 100 span x 100 span wall of air. Also at two miles you would be able to see a cannon   ball coming at you regardless of any speed possible with a gunpowder launch. Aiming at a channeler 2000 spans away is unlikely with a primitive weapons system like a dragon, and impossibly with a bow.

 

The DO will not be free of his prison so he would not be able to be a hands on genereal during a battle.

 

 

 

At two miles inn the middle of a battle where there are channelers and bowmen, etc., its highly unlikely that you would be able to see a cannon ball before it was literally on top of you. Also you would use dragons in two ways, in mass attacks against trollics and other shadowspawn thus eliminating their higher numbers. Second, in the same way that channelers use lightning, to take out strategic targets. Remember, the Chosen and the dreadlords are not likely to protect their troops by using the power defensively. Thus, use the dragons to take out the Darkone's conventional forces let the Light channelers take on the Dark channelers.

 

Demandred is the only one we know of, there is alot going on behind the shadows lines that we know nothing of.

 

Actually all the great generals in randland are accounted for. You do not train a great general overnight or even in a couple of years (except in the case of Mat who has the benefit of hundred of years memories to rely on). You might have experienced officers leading darkfriends troops but that is a far cry from saying they will be led by experienced acomplished generals.

[Bela]

 

Just unorganized, far from stupid.

 

I disagree.  They have a much better central organization than the forces of Light, but they have not exploited that better organization as well as they could have.

 

We have seen countless times people who hate each other come together to fight the dark side. When the time comes I think people will fall in behind Rand and his massive army. The dark side is made up of provinces, each ruled by a Forsaken interested only in their personal affairs. Even with Moridin in the picture they are still fighting him and each other. A very unorganized organization in my opinion.

 

They will certainly care about casualties in a large scale battle. The dragons will take out channelers too.

 

History says otherwise, about the casualties, and without knowing how the battle will line up, tactically, how can you say for sure what the Dragons will be shooting at?  Do you have some inside information we don't?

 

No I do not, but those are small scale battles who are focused on one thing. Launching one hundred thousand Trollocs at the manor house was an attempt to overwhelm Rand to his death. A basic assassination. In a large scale battle, numbers matter, yes the trollocs will be the pawns, and the fades rooks, and the darkhounds bishops, and the forsaken kings and queens, yet the potential destruction the dragons can deal they are sure to start protecting their pawns, or else the white pawns will have no black pawns to face and we will have 1 million white pawns charging at the black rooks and bishops and kings and queens. The white rooks and bishops and kings and queens, and knights of course, can now focus on the black ones and the white pawns will destroy everything. Very much a game of chess, and very confusing. You cannot have a battle without your pawns. A forsaken with his/her own agenda is far different from the dark one with his agenda.

 

That WOULD be effective. But there are only so many dragons that could be placed in a group of 100 people.

 

The Heroes' effect can be pretty widespread, as we saw at Falme.  And just 40 cannons could wreak absolute havoc.

 

Like I said before, if the dragons are used against the forces of the dark before TG it is likely the shadow will find some way to counter it. TG is likely going to be a big battle, there is nothing to support this of course, but it is reasonable to assume. In a big battle with millions on each side, 40 cannons are hardly going to be effective, and moving them around is going to be an even bigger challenge. They need four horses to pull the things and likely they will need to remove the horses before firing the things.

 

Nothing to support this. We have no idea just how large the black ajah is. How many of the sea folk/kin/wise one channelers are darkfriends, or how many of Taim's friends will go to the dark. Also for all we know, however unlikely, that shadow could have its own tower in the making, calling DF's to learn.

 

I'm sorry, but the Shadow's tactics have evidenced that they are in the minority in all those groups.  Are you actually claiming that the Black Ajah is a majority among Aes Sedai?  Or the majority in any of the other groups you have named?

 

If they actually are the majority, then they truly are stupid.  They could have already won this thing, if that were so.

 

Not necessarily majority but possibly 20%-25%. We have no proof that the shadow isn't hiding another channeling population behind our back either. The Forsaken are more than capable of raising an army of channelers, however unlikely.

 

I was talking about putting the weaves on the actual cannon balls or eggs though, it would be hard to lightning those.

 

That might work, but then, in effect, each cannonball launched would have to be its own ter'angreal.  Given the apparent difficulty of making those, Mat would either run out of ammunition really quickly or its not going to happen at all.

 

We know that 3 or so other Aes Sedai have been working to compete with Elayne, none or as good, but if they worked all day every day for a few weeks they could probably make a few thousand ter'angreal.

[Kaznen]

About the horses....

 

Ever since there were cannons, when the horse/s was unhitched from the cannon's rig, that cannon's gunnery crew would pus them into position.  Leaving horses close to a battery line is not a smart thing.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

3)"They need four horses to pull the things and likely they will need to remove the horses before firing the things."

 

More mobile designs exist, and we don't yet know what precise design Mat may use.

I'm not sure about that, I think RAW's right to question it.

 

I don't think that we'll see static batteries, but mobile ones comprising of 2 or 3 guns at a time.

 

Historically, perhaps the most mobile artillery/cannon regiments were the Royal Horse Artillery of the British during the Napoelonic period. They were 4-horse teams pulling light guns and were known for their ability to quickly move around the battlefield. They worked by fire and manouver, approach the position, unhitch the guns, fire, move when threatened, rinse and repeat.

 

Granted, the RHA were elite forces, very highly trained, but we've got Saldean horsemen who can only be compared to Mongol riders in terms of skill. I'm sure it would be easy enough to adapt and create a mobile force.

 

Added to that, and I'm shaky on RJ's statements re. learning a position to create a Gateway/Travelling from, the idea of dropping off fast-moving, small, horse-drawn gun teams isn't exactly beyond the realm of possibility.

 

Historically, I'd say the most manouverable guns (on a battlefield level) perhaps throughout history, were the teams of the RHA.

 

But then, as RAW says, we're not even sure what approach to cannons Mat will take.

 

Are we talking of light guns that are designed to be moved? Or heavy guns designed to be left in place?

 

Looking at Mat's prefence for speed and movement, I think it'd be the former. If that's the case, then the gun teams of the RHA are the best approach. But of course that limits your firepower - smaller guns = less impact.

 

Static batteries of guns would seem to be too vulnurable to attack, given the fluidity of the series of TG battles that the majority of us seem to expect.

[Majsju]

Historically, perhaps the most mobile artillery/cannon regiments were the Royal Horse Artillery of the British during the Napoelonic period. They were 4-horse teams pulling light guns and were known for their ability to quickly move around the battlefield. They worked by fire and manouver, approach the position, unhitch the guns, fire, move when threatened, rinse and repeat.

 

 

 

Seems to me they got the idea from Sweden, who during the 30-year war developed cannons small enough to be pulled by two horses, while still carrying enough firepower to wreck a nice amount of havoc. This in order to keep them extremely mobile, since Sweden had one of the smallest armies in terms of manpower. And they used a similar tactic as the Brits later.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Seems to me they got the idea from Sweden, who during the 30-year war developed cannons small enough to be pulled by two horses, while still carrying enough firepower to wreck a nice amount of havoc. This in order to keep them extremely mobile, since Sweden had one of the smallest armies in terms of manpower. And they used a similar tactic as the Brits later.

I believe they did, but the lighter guns were the key, and I believe they went for four horses for the speed.

 

In any case their effectiveness led to them being becoming something of an exclusive club for many years.

[Builder]

I think the French had some artillery pieces during WW2 or something that was the fastest artillery ever constructed. I can't remember the name right now which is a shame because they sounded perfect for a WoT battle  ;)

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

I think the French had some artillery pieces during WW2 or something that was the fastest artillery ever constructed.

We weren't talking about speed, but about manouverability.

 

And besides, we were talking about weapons that were, potentially at a fantasy-genre stretch, technologically feasible.

[Shard]

Yeah no matter what idea's Mat comes up with were not getting Gattling guns in WoT.

[erickm001]

Gunboats. You've got a working steam engine, Rand's university has experimented with a sidewheel paddle, and you've got an experienced riverboat captain and his military trained wife. The dragon's would work dandy on a gunboat. Wouldn't stretch the technology too far, either. The Westlands have rivers that go everywhere.

 

For effectiveness, see Missippi River Campaign, US Civil War.