Shock and Awe

[Builder]

But still the Shadow would need some big-ass number to have a chance in the Last Battle.

[Luckers]

Here is my old military roundup, if it helps.

 

ARMED FORCES

 

Borderlanders - Including forces left in the Borderlands i'd guess 250,000. Merillile estimated the army in Andor to have 200,000 and we know they left a significant force behind. Lan will likely gather quite the force in his march also... 50,000 or more.

 

Rand's Forces - around 400,000 Aiel split between Tear and Arad Domon. Cairhein and Tear, i'm guessing, could marshal somewhere around 150,000 each when all is said and done, though this is never pinned down. My guess comes based of Andoran numbers, and Andor is the strongest nation in the world. Illian is likely stronger, given Sammael's avid recruitment program... so maybe 200,000. Altogether thats 900,000 that he can marshal.

 

Andor - Elayne said that if they gathered all their warriors they could barely match the borderlanders--so 200,000.

 

Inturalde - Has marshalled two armies altogether 300,000. Wether he will be able to retain the Taraboners following the battle with the Seanchan is unknown. Additionally many will be lost in the battle with the Seanchan, unless Rhuarc, Rand or Tuon intervene following the treaty. I expect his forces will be down to around 200,000 by the time the Last battle begins.

 

The Aes Sedai - Gawyn estimates that the Rebels have 50,000 spread in two camps, and Elaida ordered the guard raised to 50,000 long ago. So following reunification 100,000. I suspect maybe 10,000 will die in the seanchan attack. 90,000.

 

The White Cloaks - 7,000.

 

The Legion of the Dragon - it was 30,000 in aCoS (15 trained, 15 not) but given Taims... verocious recruiting campeign i wouldn't be surprised if this hadn't tripelled. Nevertheless ill place this at 60,000... and if they get their hands on Mat's crossbow bolts...

 

The Band of the Red Hand - I think 16,000 if i understand that talk of banners. Egwene places them at 10,000 in PoD so it seems a likely number. He has six thousand horse, five thousand foot, four thousand crossbowman and a thousand masons.

 

Dragonsworn - Less of an issue now. Those with Masema were mostly slaughtered in the battle with the Shaido, and those that arn't seem to have been gathered up by Inturalde or Taim.

 

The Seanchan - dificult to calculate. I believe a force of around 8,000 will be attacking Tar Valon. And army of maybe 100,000 has followed a man named Turan after Inturalde, where i suspect it will be decimated. Based on Suroth's comments i suspect that was about half the armed forces the Seanchan had in Tarabon, so another 100,000. Tylee has 15,000 under her. With another large army of around 30,000 wandering about in Altara. Given the frequency of the mention of the Seanchan forces, and how spread out they are, with Altaran, Taraboner and Amadacian conscripts present... i'd place their numbers at around 800,000. But that is a very loose guess. Remember too they have the only air force in the world, and the only force literally capable of going toe to toe with a Trolloc, and coming out on top... cept for maybe the Ogier.

 

Murandy - I think Murandy is underestimated. Due to contentions they have a standing army that is quite large due to the fact that each Lord and Lady has their own force... now all of which is united behind Roedan. I reckon they might even have 100,000 or more. However, i also suspect that Roedan is either Demandred, or under his control... so...

 

Ogier - Who knows... i doubt they'd be able to muster a large force... but they could be effective. Lets say maybe 10,000

 

CHANNELERS

 

Black Tower - Around 1000 now, though that may have climbed. 100 Darkfriends and 900 Light.

 

White Tower - 2200. Including all Aes Sedai, and novices. I'd place around 300 Black Ajah... to be kind. The disposition of the novices is unimportant, since they will be used like batteries in circels. 1900.

 

Wise Ones - Based on the Shaido, 5500. Lets be extremely kind and give a third to the Shadow. 1875 Dark and 3625 light

 

Seanchan - Hard to say. They get every sparker, and the Seanchan have a much much larger population by all accounts. Plus they've taken loads of new damane since ariving (randoms, the shaido, the windfinders, the kin... loads). I'll give them 6,000 and think thats conservative. It might only be 4,000, or may be as high as 8,000. Not many darkfriends amongst the sul'dam, so i wont give any to the Shadow.

 

The Kin - Given likely losses to the Seanchan i'll put them at 1,300. No darkfriends.

 

The Windfinders - Given ship distribution, presense of apprentices and so forth, i'd guess around 3,000. Being kind ill give a third to the shadow. 1,000 dark and 2,000 light.

 

CONCLUSION

 

Armed Forces of the Light - 2, 333, 000. That isn't including Murandy, who may be Shadowbound.

 

Channeling Forces of the Light - 15,725

 

Channeling Forces of the Dark - 3,275

 

OTHER CONSIDERATIONS

 

Given the disparate amount of Dark Channelers, and RJ's insistance that the Light is in a bad way, there are some other possible considerations.

 

1. Aiel Male Channelers. Have been going north for a very long time. Possibly been turned to the Shadow. I'd suggest around 1000... remember, 1/4 would have died.

 

2. Taim. I believe that Taim was trained a while back by Ishamael (when Ishy first suspect Rand's birth), and sent out to start training men who can channel for the Shadow. Since this must have been done by Ishy for the Trolloc Wars (since we know men fought in those wars, and someone must have gathered and trained them) i think this is very likely. Moreover, i suspect there might be women out there doing the same thing. The Aes Sedai ignored wilders and those channelers that never bothered to come to the Tower, and the Kin never recruited... they only accepted Tower dropouts which leaves a fairly massive (even with recent recruitments) untapped force. This scenario matches Taims comments of his past--he admits to trying to train people, but claims they went insane... if Taim is a darkfriend, as seems likely, then those men would have had the option of joining the dark.

 

Still, a furtive operation at best... even with a whole bunch of people doing it... My guess would put it at around 2,000... but ill be kind and say 4,000, just because.

 

3. The Sharans. They are a massive untapped force... but there are some problems. They are ruled by the channelers from the background, which means a monolithic organisation with diffused circles of power. They use compulsion all the time in their ruling, which would make it hard to control them in this manner. Additionally from purely plot perspective it would be hard to swallow... the Aiel Instant Army was hard to swallow, and he spent the better part of two books doing that.

 

4. The Land of the Madmen... i believe this is where the shadow has been gathering channelers... the stories about the place strike me as a massive smokescreen... but meh. Alternatively it might be a ripe recruitment area for the Shadow. ill given them 4,000 channelers too... male and female.

 

If these are true, it boosts the number of Dark Channelers to 12,275. A much more even number.

 

*sigh*. Thats, near as i can tell, the current distribution of forces. I havn't speculated on the number of shadowspawn... but it will more them probably be greater then the forces of the Light... maybe 3 million or more. Likely more.

[Mr Ares]

Stop using nukes damnit! We can't just go nuclear on everything!

Why not? Spoilsport.

What about the good Asha'man?

Collateral damage.

 

A nuclear strike in the center of Andor is a bit extreme' date=' as much as it might warm your warlike heart, Sayin Donar.[/quote']"Isn't that overkill?"

"No, I think it's just enough kill."

[Builder]

Here is my old military roundup, if it helps.

 

ARMED FORCES

 

Borderlanders - Including forces left in the Borderlands i'd guess 250,000. Merillile estimated the army in Andor to have 200,000 and we know they left a significant force behind. Lan will likely gather quite the force in his march also... 50,000 or more.

 

Rand's Forces - around 400,000 Aiel split between Tear and Arad Domon. Cairhein and Tear, i'm guessing, could marshal somewhere around 150,000 each when all is said and done, though this is never pinned down. My guess comes based of Andoran numbers, and Andor is the strongest nation in the world. Illian is likely stronger, given Sammael's avid recruitment program... so maybe 200,000. Altogether thats 900,000 that he can marshal.

 

Andor - Elayne said that if they gathered all their warriors they could barely match the borderlanders--so 200,000.

 

Inturalde - Has marshalled two armies altogether 300,000. Wether he will be able to retain the Taraboners following the battle with the Seanchan is unknown. Additionally many will be lost in the battle with the Seanchan, unless Rhuarc, Rand or Tuon intervene following the treaty. I expect his forces will be down to around 200,000 by the time the Last battle begins.

 

The Aes Sedai - Gawyn estimates that the Rebels have 50,000 spread in two camps, and Elaida ordered the guard raised to 50,000 long ago. So following reunification 100,000. I suspect maybe 10,000 will die in the seanchan attack. 90,000.

 

The White Cloaks - 7,000.

 

The Legion of the Dragon - it was 30,000 in aCoS (15 trained, 15 not) but given Taims... verocious recruiting campeign i wouldn't be surprised if this hadn't tripelled. Nevertheless ill place this at 60,000... and if they get their hands on Mat's crossbow bolts...

 

The Band of the Red Hand - I think 16,000 if i understand that talk of banners. Egwene places them at 10,000 in PoD so it seems a likely number. He has six thousand horse, five thousand foot, four thousand crossbowman and a thousand masons.

 

Dragonsworn - Less of an issue now. Those with Masema were mostly slaughtered in the battle with the Shaido, and those that arn't seem to have been gathered up by Inturalde or Taim.

 

The Seanchan - dificult to calculate. I believe a force of around 8,000 will be attacking Tar Valon. And army of maybe 100,000 has followed a man named Turan after Inturalde, where i suspect it will be decimated. Based on Suroth's comments i suspect that was about half the armed forces the Seanchan had in Tarabon, so another 100,000. Tylee has 15,000 under her. With another large army of around 30,000 wandering about in Altara. Given the frequency of the mention of the Seanchan forces, and how spread out they are, with Altaran, Taraboner and Amadacian conscripts present... i'd place their numbers at around 800,000. But that is a very loose guess. Remember too they have the only air force in the world, and the only force literally capable of going toe to toe with a Trolloc, and coming out on top... cept for maybe the Ogier.

 

Murandy - I think Murandy is underestimated. Due to contentions they have a standing army that is quite large due to the fact that each Lord and Lady has their own force... now all of which is united behind Roedan. I reckon they might even have 100,000 or more. However, i also suspect that Roedan is either Demandred, or under his control... so...

 

Ogier - Who knows... i doubt they'd be able to muster a large force... but they could be effective. Lets say maybe 10,000

 

CHANNELERS

 

Black Tower - Around 1000 now, though that may have climbed. 100 Darkfriends and 900 Light.

 

White Tower - 2200. Including all Aes Sedai, and novices. I'd place around 300 Black Ajah... to be kind. The disposition of the novices is unimportant, since they will be used like batteries in circels. 1900.

 

Wise Ones - Based on the Shaido, 5500. Lets be extremely kind and give a third to the Shadow. 1875 Dark and 3625 light

 

Seanchan - Hard to say. They get every sparker, and the Seanchan have a much much larger population by all accounts. Plus they've taken loads of new damane since ariving (randoms, the shaido, the windfinders, the kin... loads). I'll give them 6,000 and think thats conservative. It might only be 4,000, or may be as high as 8,000. Not many darkfriends amongst the sul'dam, so i wont give any to the Shadow.

 

The Kin - Given likely losses to the Seanchan i'll put them at 1,300. No darkfriends.

 

The Windfinders - Given ship distribution, presense of apprentices and so forth, i'd guess around 3,000. Being kind ill give a third to the shadow. 1,000 dark and 2,000 light.

 

CONCLUSION

 

Armed Forces of the Light - 2, 333, 000. That isn't including Murandy, who may be Shadowbound.

 

Channeling Forces of the Light - 15,725

 

Channeling Forces of the Dark - 3,275

 

OTHER CONSIDERATIONS

 

Given the disparate amount of Dark Channelers, and RJ's insistance that the Light is in a bad way, there are some other possible considerations.

 

1. Aiel Male Channelers. Have been going north for a very long time. Possibly been turned to the Shadow. I'd suggest around 1000... remember, 1/4 would have died.

 

2. Taim. I believe that Taim was trained a while back by Ishamael (when Ishy first suspect Rand's birth), and sent out to start training men who can channel for the Shadow. Since this must have been done by Ishy for the Trolloc Wars (since we know men fought in those wars, and someone must have gathered and trained them) i think this is very likely. Moreover, i suspect there might be women out there doing the same thing. The Aes Sedai ignored wilders and those channelers that never bothered to come to the Tower, and the Kin never recruited... they only accepted Tower dropouts which leaves a fairly massive (even with recent recruitments) untapped force. This scenario matches Taims comments of his past--he admits to trying to train people, but claims they went insane... if Taim is a darkfriend, as seems likely, then those men would have had the option of joining the dark.

 

Still, a furtive operation at best... even with a whole bunch of people doing it... My guess would put it at around 2,000... but ill be kind and say 4,000, just because.

 

3. The Sharans. They are a massive untapped force... but there are some problems. They are ruled by the channelers from the background, which means a monolithic organisation with diffused circles of power. They use compulsion all the time in their ruling, which would make it hard to control them in this manner. Additionally from purely plot perspective it would be hard to swallow... the Aiel Instant Army was hard to swallow, and he spent the better part of two books doing that.

 

4. The Land of the Madmen... i believe this is where the shadow has been gathering channelers... the stories about the place strike me as a massive smokescreen... but meh. Alternatively it might be a ripe recruitment area for the Shadow. ill given them 4,000 channelers too... male and female.

 

If these are true, it boosts the number of Dark Channelers to 12,275. A much more even number.

 

*sigh*. Thats, near as i can tell, the current distribution of forces. I havn't speculated on the number of shadowspawn... but it will more them probably be greater then the forces of the Light... maybe 3 million or more. Likely more.

 

Man all of that makes you kinda look weak if you're the Light. Remember that even 2.3 million soldiers are weaker than 2.3 million trollocs simply because trollocs are stronger. Then comes Myrdraal...

 

Meh, we'll be fine, as long as we have good generals. Remember folks that numbers isn't an advantage. It's what your strategy is that's important and how you use your troops.

[Luckers]

I hold on the opposite--we see around 25 channelers destroy 100,000 Trollocs in KoD. Admittedly we have also seen how a small nhumber of channelers can hold off a great number at Dumai's well's, but even so the vast number differences are a problem.

[Builder]

Yeah, but it's total chaos when soldiers go head on with a mass of channelers in the back...

[Luckers]

I don't understand what you are trying to say.

[Majsju]

One thing to keep in mind that is quite important is that the shadow have most likely infiltrated every single military force that will join the party. And sleeper agents can have devastating effects by seemingly small actions. An important message that is not delivered, resulting in troops not being where they are supposed to be. Poisoning food and water supplies. Giving away the location of forces trying to be sneaky. Etc.

[Builder]

What Majsju just said now is what teh Shadow do best, and they are not afraid to use it. It's dirty, but if it wins the war for you and you just happen to be a minion of the most evil being in the universe, then why not use it.

 

The only thing the Light needs to figure out is how to detect infiltration and how to deal with it. I think the first thing is the hardest  :).

[Luckers]

Umm... ok. And the question i directly phrased to you?

[Shard]

You know there IS a way for advanced technology to be brought in, the same way the Seachan got all their pretty nifty giant lizard critters: Portal Stones! Course doing so would be extremely dangerous and taxing and may not be worth the effort.

[Builder]

Umm... ok. And the question i directly phrased to you?

 

Luckers mah boiiii!

 

If you asked about this post:

 

Yeah, but it's total chaos when soldiers go head on with a mass of channelers in the back...

 

I said it because it is chaos in those situations. just look at how it was during the battle at Dumai's Wells.

[CUBAREY]

You know there IS a way for advanced technology to be brought in, the same way the Seachan got all their pretty nifty giant lizard critters: Portal Stones! Course doing so would be extremely dangerous and taxing and may not be worth the effort.

 

And do we have anyone now living even the forsaken would know how to access our time period (or a mirror image of it) using the Portal Stones?

[Shard]

Lanfear, Moggy, possibly Messana and the others may know.

[CUBAREY]

Lanfear, Moggy, possibly Messana and the others may know.

All we know in of the Stones is that they come from an AGE prior to AOL (not necessarily the Age immediately before AOL) and that there is doubt whether Channelers in AOL new much about them. From what we know of the page of manuscript about the stones that survive only ISHY (THE Philosopher) would have had any reason to make a study of them.

[Shard]

For someone who isn't even an Aol'er Verin sure seems to know which symbols represent what. Also Lanfear I believe DID take Rand, Hurin and Loial to the Mirror world.

[Rinkai]

-The blight: Round up. Lots and lots of round up. They say to use 5 parts water to 1 part round up, but I say bump it up to 1:1 Ratio.BUt the blight feeds of the DO, so this is only a quick fix that lets you go to round two in quick succession.

 

-Trollocs. I think Biological warfare is the way to go. This will be a three pronged attack aimed at the trollocs three loves. Fighting, eating, and sex( they must breed like rabits to keep their numbers up). So Step one is the capture some trollocs and selectivly breed them to be sexier(for trollocs) and fatter. Its commonly known that wolves have one of the most malleable genetic codes out there (hence the wide variety in dogs). So the wolf type trolocs are the best canidates for this. We can also air drop thousands of pounds of crisco, and butter for them to eat. That combined with the inter breeding of fat trollocs, leads to amazingly fat trollocs. If they are too fat and lazt to fight anymore, the only thing left that they enjoy is eating. Its a vicious cycle really. Also give them syphillis. And aids.

 

-The DO is the head of the snake here and nothing will change if he isn't dealt with. Lets look at his motivation. He is obviously bored. Hes locked in the bore with nothing to do. What he really wants is cable tv, high speed internet, and a PS3. Hes trying to destroy time so that once he gets it, he has time to do it all. So we send an ambassador. And give him the biggest LCD we can make. With surround sound of course, and a crazy XPS with tons of RAM and a decent graphics chip, and a PS3, the DO might be he kind of guy who prefers a wii though, he does seem like an old guy after all. Oh and tons of porn.And passwords to all the good sites out there.

 

There we go with a dead blight and a happy DO, we have saved the day. If all else fails, Dam the rivers flowing into the border lands from the north and flood it all. over the course of a few hundred years.

[Builder]

It could work if the Dark One wasn't an energetic being. If you're gonna be scientific then you would classify a being like that as energy. Also explains why you can't kill im with the Power or swords or something. You would have to have an EMP, to whatever to kill him. I also think that the "the DO can't be killed because if he is killed it will destroy the universe" rumor was started by Ishy or something so nobody would kill him. Maybe from a scientific perspective it would make the planet explode because the DO is inside the planet somehow and that would kill everyone.

[Hallow]

It could work if the Dark One wasn't an energetic being. If you're gonna be scientific then you would classify a being like that as energy. Also explains why you can't kill im with the Power or swords or something. You would have to have an EMP, to whatever to kill him. I also think that the "the DO can't be killed because if he is killed it will destroy the universe" rumor was started by Ishy or something so nobody would kill him. Maybe from a scientific perspective it would make the planet explode because the DO is inside the planet somehow and that would kill everyone.

 

Im sorry, when in the books did it say the Dark one is energy?

[Builder]

From a scientific point of view. Read the entire post.

[RobertAlexWillis]

How does science have anything to do with it?  ???

[Hallow]

How does science have anything to do with it?  ???

 

Exactly

[Builder]

Narrow minded people...

 

Ok lets get back on topic. If you have any more questions PM me, don't derail this thread any further.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Um ... how are we the ones derailing the thread?  You're the one who is claiming that the Dark One should be "scientifically" classified as an "energetic being".  I'm not even sure what that means, "scientifically", and I'm pretty sure that an EMP would have absolutely no effect on him.

 

Also, the Dark One is not "inside the planet".  Even "from a scientific perspective".  From a "scientific perspective", there is the mantle, and the inner and outer core.

[Builder]

Please PM me if you want to talk with me, ok?