Theory on Demandred

[Sab]

Aes Sedai can detect Shadowspawn, don't remember reading anything of Df's.  If that was the case would be impossible for the BA to hide.  Since many have been involved in bad things such as murder, etc....

 

Demandred I think has been bouncing about spreading chaos here and there.  Orginally I thought he was with the Seanchan, but we now know that wasn't him but Semi.  We know from other POV's that he isn't the type to take power of a nation like Samm or Rhavin.  We also know it was his job to try and watch over Rand.  So he is most likely just staying out of sight and letting others do the work for him.  We still have no idea who ordered slayer to take the trollocs back into the Two rivers. 

[Charlz Guybon]

I for one have been waiting for a Demandred POV where he thinks about the stuff he has been up to. He could have been the one setting up a lot of mess, but he is not the guy to become king in a unimportant country. He is WAY to arrogant for that. Controlling events all over the gameboard is more up to his liking i think.

It would be totally awesome if we saw Demandred in the prologue if it gets released early.

[Dark Justice]

I really hope the prologue does not come out before the book... It is already split up. I dont want to see it split even further...

[Charlz Guybon]

Moiraine thought there might be, but in practice, we've never seen one detected by "feel".

It might take a specific weave, like delving. Which makes it rather useless because how often are you going to get the opportunity to do that kind of hands on complex weave on a suspect?

[Charlz Guybon]

I really hope the prologue does not come out before the book... It is already split up. I dont want to see it split even further...

The prologue's been released online the last 3 books hasn't it? That's not splitting up the book.

[Thorum]

I believe however that RJ said that we hadnt seen his alias up until the end of Book 9, but can't remember when we first encountered Roedran?

 

We haven't encountered him. Like you've probably never encountered Ahmadinejad or Hu Jintao.

 

South of Shayol Ghul would be pointless to say, as basicly everything of importance is south of Shayol Ghul.

 

Basicly?

 

[MikeRiley]

We still have no idea who ordered slayer to take the trollocs back into the Two rivers. 

 

I'm pretty sure that was Moridin. In one of the forsaken meetings he mentions Slayer "killing that other vermin", I don't have the exact quote. He either mentioned Fain flat out or implied it. I don't even remember what book it was in, now.. He kills a rat with the DO's power and makes the forsaken we're getting the POV from flinch when he notices it wasn't Saidin.

 

Fain was also Ishamael's lackey and the other forsaken wouldn't care enough to go to such lengths to kill the guy. Moridin would, though. Use one tool to kill the other, both are likely his creation.

[Dark Justice]

I really hope the prologue does not come out before the book... It is already split up. I dont want to see it split even further...

The prologue's been released online the last 3 books hasn't it? That's not splitting up the book.

 

Well.. Splitting up my read. Id like to have as much as I can when it gets out. And obvioulsy, if it came out before, I would not be able to stay away from it...  :(

[RobertAlexWillis]

It might take a specific weave, like delving. Which makes it rather useless because how often are you going to get the opportunity to do that kind of hands on complex weave on a suspect?

 

No, when Moiraine speculated on it waaaaaay back in TEoTW, she was describing it in the context of being the same as their ability to simply sense Shadowspawn.  Honestly, I think its something Jordan just plain dropped, because we never hear it again, and it would make the Forsaken less dangerous, and less interesting.

 

So, either he just decided to ignore it after the fact, or he planned for it to be one of Moiraine's misconceptions.  But, quite clearly, channelers cannot "feel" even the worst of Darkfriends.

[Charlz Guybon]

It might take a specific weave, like delving. Which makes it rather useless because how often are you going to get the opportunity to do that kind of hands on complex weave on a suspect?

 

No, when Moiraine speculated on it waaaaaay back in TEoTW, she was describing it in the context of being the same as their ability to simply sense Shadowspawn.  Honestly, I think its something Jordan just plain dropped, because we never hear it again, and it would make the Forsaken less dangerous, and less interesting.

 

So, either he just decided to ignore it after the fact, or he planned for it to be one of Moiraine's misconceptions.  But, quite clearly, channelers cannot "feel" even the worst of Darkfriends.

Couldn't she feel the mark of the Dark One on Fain, or was that because of his encounter with Mordeth?

[Shard]

Either that or the Forsaken are smart enough to cover up any Taint that Moraine would otherwise sense. She seems to be able to get alot of what Fain's nature is, not to mention that dagger as well and how much it had tainted Mat. I think it all depends on how far they have gone into twisting themselves. Someone like Mellar is still human even though he's doing DO bidding so there's nothing really to detect. Unless you had Min or Hurin around him.

 

I think I rather go with a Moraine misconception though as it wouldn't hurt the story too much really or even Moraine's character I mean she can't be right ALL the time.

[Dark Justice]

She didnt sence it in fain when he was in two rivers. So if she did, it must have been mordeth..

[DemandredFO]

I think that was mordeth she felt.  That darkfriend sense I think was just a Moiraine misconception and remember if she believes it it doesn't violate the oath.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Couldn't she feel the mark of the Dark One on Fain, or was that because of his encounter with Mordeth?

 

Yes, she could "feel" him only after his encounter with Mordeth.

[Luckers]

On the initial point--like Robert I also think Demandred is playing an Ishamael, and manipulating from behind the scenes--i'd have no propblem with him being behind Roedan AND the borderlanders. Plus i suspect he's also the one organising and gathering the Shadowspawn in preperation for the invasion--it makes sense, he's the only remaining general.

 

Why would Demandred want to consolidate Murandy? I thought he only wanted chaos, chaos and more chaos. I can hardly imagine him working towards so 'petty' an aim.

I didn't look any deeper about Roedran scheming to control Murandy. Besides all his praising Mat's book and getting Talmanes a copy seems - well - so human.

 

By descriptions of Murandy it looks to be the most populous nation in the Westlands. Andor may be larger by vast tracks are uninhabited, yet we have descriptions of the Aes Sedai's march through there, and there is constant mention of human habitation.

 

Beyond that, due to their internal conflict every lord and lady has their own armed forces. Also due to that conflict they are probably the most experienced general soldiers in the Westlands (other than the Borderlands of course). Elayne speaks of how much this is worth, when speaking of how much of Andor's armed forces are untrained farmers.

 

Effectively, a united Murandy would have the strongest army of any nation in the Westlands other than the borderlanders. This is precisely something Demandred would percieve and seek to exploit.

 

No, when Moiraine speculated on it waaaaaay back in TEoTW, she was describing it in the context of being the same as their ability to simply sense Shadowspawn.  Honestly, I think its something Jordan just plain dropped, because we never hear it again, and it would make the Forsaken less dangerous, and less interesting.

 

Of course we know that the taint on shadowspawn can be warded so as to be undetectable. That may be what is occuring here. Or else it could be that only a specific type of darkfriend is detectable--we know there are differents rolls and rituals they can play, resulting in different degrees of darkness. This tainting seems to be functional, resulting from some specific thing undergone in the process of being a darkfriend--it could simply be the Forsaken have not undergone that process.

 

Yes, she could "feel" him only after his encounter with Mordeth.

 

I've always wondered about that. She sensed Mat straight away, the second she entered the room, but Fain... she asks Agelmar to wash him before they talk, then he gives a speech changing accents, and Mat reacts to it by grabbing the dagger. She notices, calms mat, then says washing him can wait.

 

In effect, she seemed to be reacting to the speech, and to mats reaction, not her sense of Fain. She also mentions nothing about Mordeth or the evil of Shadar Logoth when she appears to the group after talking to him--she says everything else, yet doesn't mention that. And specifically says he hid something from her.

 

She does not even realise its Mordeth until the end of tGH.

 

So I wonder--did she sense anything at all, or did his attitude betray something that warned her.

[Osan`gar]

Why would Demandred want to consolidate Murandy? I thought he only wanted chaos, chaos and more chaos. I can hardly imagine him working towards so 'petty' an aim.

I didn't look any deeper about Roedran scheming to control Murandy. Besides all his praising Mat's book and getting Talmanes a copy seems - well - so human.

 

the chosen place a premium emphasis on their own comforts... each one of them secured a place of powee where they had absolute control so as to have effective tools to weak chaos but also so as to have servants, fine foods, exotic pleasures and such... if you will. consider samael in illian, be'lal in tear, rahvin in andor, semihage in seanchan, etc...etc...etc...

[RobertAlexWillis]

I've always wondered about that. She sensed Mat straight away, the second she entered the room, but Fain... she asks Agelmar to wash him before they talk, then he gives a speech changing accents, and Mat reacts to it by grabbing the dagger. She notices, calms mat, then says washing him can wait.

 

In effect, she seemed to be reacting to the speech, and to mats reaction, not her sense of Fain. She also mentions nothing about Mordeth or the evil of Shadar Logoth when she appears to the group after talking to him--she says everything else, yet doesn't mention that. And specifically says he hid something from her.

 

She does not even realise its Mordeth until the end of tGH.

 

So I wonder--did she sense anything at all, or did his attitude betray something that warned her.

 

I figured that the presence of Mat, in whom the taint was unmixed, the dagger, in which it was surely unmixed, and her concern for Mat all served to take her attention away from Fain, but that her desire to have him washed was a manifestation of her "feeling" his taint.  It could have just been that he was very dirty, though.

 

Actually, the taint should be less detectable in him, despite Mordeth's immediate presence, since he is sort of a walking example of the same cancellation effect present in Rand's wound that made the Cleansing work.

 

The point, of course, is that whether she felt his taint or not in Fal Dara, she definitely did not detect him when he was just a really really bad Darkfriend.

[Luckers]

I dunno... what you say could be possible, but still... she personally interviews him away from Mat several times, but she doesn't realise till Falme that Mordeth is present in him. That combined with the fact that she only reacts to him after his speech still indicates to me that she had no sense of him, that it was his actions that alerted her....

 

In any case i agree with the point of your comment, she did not sense him as a darkfriend.

[RobertAlexWillis]

she doesn't realise till Falme that Mordeth is present in him. That combined with the fact that she only reacts to him after his speech still indicates to me that she had no sense of him, that it was his actions that alerted her....

 

Yes, the more I think about it now, that is really odd, isn't it?

 

Mordeth should have been registering off the charts ... I guess I can only attribute it to the cancellation effect of having both types of taint present ... still quite odd though ...

[Luckers]

I know, that's why I've always been confused.

 

In support of your idea about cancellation we know Fain and Mordeth fought each other at first--it was during tGH that the souls melded fully. Alternatively Mordeth has several strange abilities--seemingly enhanced by his melding with Fain. Perhaps concealing himself was one of those.

 

Either way its wierd.

[Shard]

I thought it was at Lord Agelmar's keep that she sensed Mordeth and what happened to him in Shadar Logoth? Did Moraine even go to Falme?  ???

[Luckers]

She did go to falme, and she did not sense him at Fal Dara. I stated as much above.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yes, Moiraine went to Falme (even though we didn't see her until after the fact, she was there), and no, she didn't know Mordeth was present in Fain while in Fal Dara ...

 

She said, among other things following her first interview with him, "He could not lie to me, though he hid much." (TEoTW ch 47)

 

Speaking of which ... how is it that he could not lie to her?  Does Moiraine know a truth-compelling weave?  And if so, how was he able to hide anything?  Odder and odder.

[Luckers]

Possibly she used the fear inducing weave of the Blue.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Hmm ... if thats all it was, then she's was exhibiting poor judgment ... fear does not preclude lying, in fact, it often induces it.