The Gathering Storm Finished

[Roxinos]

I think I call you an idiot enough for two people.

 

Idiot.

 

He didn't, and he wouldn't have done that. Period. Unlike some people here, he respects RJ and his vision. The quotes I posted here make it absolutely clear. Though, of course, you haven't read them neither here, nor in Brandon's blog.

 

I suppose that very sly attempt at avoiding the question means, "Yes, if Brandon had gone to Tom and Harriet saying, 'I found a point where I could split the novel,' then I wouldn't mind this decision."

 

Hence, you're an idiot. Somehow, that it is coming from Tom and Harriet (or even just Tom) makes it a crime against the series.

[Majsju]

Eh...How can an argument that was not actually said be rubbish?

It is like saying that TORs argument that they needed to print a book this year, because there would be a lack of ink in 2011 was a rubbish argument.

[Vambram]

http://www.dragonmount.com/Books/Memory_of_Light/harriet_interview_01.php

 

How did the decision to divide this final book into three parts come about? Was it a publishing necessity, a story necessity, or something else?

 

The material that Jim left was very capacious, and Brandon saw after working with it for a while that he could not complete it in less than a total of 750,000 words. This is probably an impossible thing to bind - unless we sold it with a magnifying glass. 250,000 words is in fact a fat, or Rubensesque, novel. You will notice that 3 x 250,000 equals 750,000. So... part of the decision was based on making a book within the scope of binding technology. The major part of the decision was to get ALL the story that Jim left out there for us all.

How do you think Jim would feel about the way the book is being handled, both writing it and publishing it?

 

I think he would be pleased. He very definitely wanted the series finished, you know. And it is being handled with love by all concerned. Alan has worked with us for eight years, and Maria for twelve, and love of the books is an old habit of theirs - as it is of mine. And it is an old habit of Brandon's, too, as you can see in the wonderful eulogy he wrote when Jim died.

 

In my opinion, those who disagree with the decision to split AMOL are disagreeing with Harriet. It cannot be made any clearer than that. This is still a free country, and anyone is completely allowed to disagree with Harriet McDougal's decision. You have a right to do so.

On the other hand, I am pleased that we are getting a book in November, 2009; another one in 2010; and finally the last book of AMOL in 2011. I am pleased that we are getting the books this way, instead of being forced to wait from October 2005 all the way until sometime in 2011 to get one, huge, massive 1500 plus page novel which would have been titled, A Memory of Light.

[CUBAREY]

Don't claim you know all the details of RJ's and Harriet's contracts with Tor. Or are you Harriet's lawyer?

 

No, I am a lawyer with some experience in copyright law. Sanderson has posted a certain amount of information about his contract to write AMOL which includes the fact that it is with Harriet acting as the Administratrex of RJ's estate and that it somewhat miirors the normal contract between a publisher and an author . I presume that at worst Rj's contract with Tor mirrored the standard contract between authors and publishers (contract obligates a writer to submit a manuscript based on an outline or "concept" submitted to the publisher). The publisher agrees to publish such manuscript and distribute it. Most times (but not always) publisher has the right to market the book domesticly and internationally either directly or through subcontracts with foreign publishers. The right of the publishers rights to market the book is for a certain time period (less then the initial copyright length which is 20 years). After such period the author is usually free to resell the marketing rights. Moreover, a publisher can refuse to publish the book under certain conditions (usually explicitely stated  in the contract). Moreover, failure to publish the book within a specified time after the manuscript normally makes the contract voidable by the author(with the caviat that any advance received by the author may be required to be repaid).

 

True, but Harriet doesn't think he would split it, which indicates she is perhaps not convinced that this will be an improvement.

 

Harriet agreed to split AMOL into three books (as the legal owner of the copyright she is responsible for turning over a manuscript to Tor,) as the contract for AMOL was for one book she would have had to agree to split it into three books. She has stated that she believes that she believes that RJ would be pleased by how the end of WOT is being written and published which indicates that she believes that such a split does not lesson the quality of the work.

 

Will you please, provide a quote where Tor promises us a book in Fall 2009?

 

Look at the announcements surrounding Sanderson being selected as the author to finish AMOL including Tors news release. Also find the announcements back in 2005 after KOD was published in which the name A Meory OfLight was frist announced to be the name of the 12th book, the expected release date was originally 2008.

[Ludmian]

I think I call you an idiot enough for two people.

 

Idiot.

 

He didn't, and he wouldn't have done that. Period. Unlike some people here, he respects RJ and his vision. The quotes I posted here make it absolutely clear. Though, of course, you haven't read them neither here, nor in Brandon's blog.

 

I suppose that very sly attempt at avoiding the question means, "Yes, if Brandon had gone to Tom and Harriet saying, 'I found a point where I could split the novel,' then I wouldn't mind this decision."

 

Hence, you're an idiot. Somehow, that it is coming from Tom and Harriet (or even just Tom) makes it a crime against the series.

 

Your question describes a situation that is completely unlikely. As far as we know Brandon was chosen by Harriet to finish AMoL for two reasons that seem equally important to me:

 

1) Harriet thought he is a good enough writer for this task

 

2) he is RJ's fan.

 

Both of these reasons make the situation when he would come up with an idea to butcher a half finished book that is not even his book in the first place very unlikely, bordering on impossible. RJ is the only person whose right to make such a decision cannot be questioned, and I guess Brandon understands it. You might as well ask "If Brandon ate little children for breakfast every morning what would you think of him?" It would be as likely (or unlikely) as the situation that you suggest. But if you insist that I give a straightforward answer to your question about an absolutely unlikely and hypothetical situation, then no, I wouldn't accept this decision. Is this answer good enough for you?

 

Eh...How can an argument that was not actually said be rubbish?

It is like saying that TORs argument that they needed to print a book this year, because there would be a lack of ink in 2011 was a rubbish argument.

 

Not actually said?

 

2) You could publish the 400k as they are done right now. If you do this, the readers do not get a book in 2009. 400k would take roughly four months to revise (and that's rushing it), and you'd have to put the novel into production with a January or February 2010 release date. That's not too far off the November 2009 date you'd promised people, so maybe they would be satisfied. But you'd leave them with a story that literally cut off right in the middle of several plotlines, and which did not have tied up resolutions...

 

Now, let's assume you made this decision, just as Tom did. This is the ONLY case in which you get to keep your promise to the Wheel of Time readers and deliver a book in 2009...

 

http://www.brandonsanderson.com/article/56/Splitting-AMOL

 

I repeat my question. Do you agree that the arguement about some promise that Tor has to keep is an absolute rubbish? Yes or no? Here I'm called an idiot for not giving straightforward answers to purely hypothetical and irrelevant questions while my opponents refuse to give straightforward answers to questions that are absolutely valid and relevant. And again, you seem to have forgotten my other question (I don't suggest that you ignored it deliberately ;D). Will you, please, provide a quote, where I call Roxinos an idiot?

 

Look at the announcements surrounding Sanderson being selected as the author to finish AMOL including Tors news release. Also find the announcements back in 2005 after KOD was published in which the name A Meory OfLight was frist announced to be the name of the 12th book, the expected release date was originally 2008.

 

To publish a book in Fall 2009 was not a promise. It was a projected release date based on Tor's premature and erroneous assumption of how long the book will be and how quickly Brandon can write it. Publishers have to make such predictions, it's part of their business, but such dates get delayed all the time for various reasons. Brandon's own last Mistborn book got delayed by a few months because Tor decided that it was better to release the book closer to the holiday season:

 

http://www.brandonsanderson.com/blog/782/Hero-of-Ages-Paperback-is-out!

 

Mind, the book was finished in time, so nothing prevented Tor from "keeping their promise". But Tor decided to delay it without taking into consideration their so called "promise". And it's not by any means a unique case either with Tor or publishers in general. But for some reason, just like with the "unprintability in today's market", only with this particular book the publisher's so called "promise" comes into question. So if they can delay a book that was finished in time because they thought it would be better to publish it four month later, then you'd think the fact that the book is not yet finished is a good enough reason for a delay.

 

As for the 2008 date, I searched DM's September-December 2005 news and didn't find the date 2008 there. If there had been an official announcement from Tor or RJ it would have surely been posted there. But again, this particular bit is not especially relevant, if only to show how unscrupulous my opponents are in choosing their arguments (as if anybody needed any more proof). Even if there had been some kind of a tentative release date for AMoL back in 2005, it would hold no relevance whatsoever to the current situation. In case you didn't know, two months after KoD was released RJ was diagnosed with a fatal disease. He had to undergo a lengthy, painful and unpleasant treatment in a clinic, and for the most time when he stayed at home his condition was so bad that he could hardly walk, let alone work on the book at his usual rate. And most of the time he did work on the book was most likely occupied by preparing notes for someone to finish it, in case the worst happened. Approximately 21 months after the diagnosis RJ died. Harriet had to find someone else who could finish AMoL, negotiate a contract with him. After that Brandon had to reread the 11 lengthy novels and study RJ's notes. After he had worked on the book for some time it became clear that the book will be at least four times longer than it was initially planned by Tor and it was simply not humanly possible to finish it in time for Tor's deadline. It would most likely still be impossible if Brandon weren't a human and didn't need to eat and sleep. And in case someone is more than 3 years old and still doesn't agree that everything I said is a good enough reason for their candy to be delayed, then you really need to ask yourself, "Why do I suck so much?"

[Roxinos]

The question I'm asking, when changed to a question regarding eating children would be, "Tom and Harriet eat little children. You think that's wrong. However, if Brandon ate little children, would you still think that eating little children is wrong?"

 

It's not asking you about what you think of Brandon. It's asking you what you'd think if the situation had arisen from Brandon's end. Your preliminary reasoning that leads you to say "no" is based on a faulty idea of what I was asking.

 

Also, as I said, I call you an idiot enough for everyone. You're taking Maj's joke quite seriously. Which just adds to the humor. Hell, I feel almost guilty telling you that what Maj said was a joke to try to calm us down. Then again, at this point, I'm just trying to get the thread closed.

 

Yer an idiot, Lud. But don't worry, the condition isn't permanent.

[Majsju]

Rox, if I tell someone to do something, it is usually not a joke.

[Mr Ares]

True, but Harriet doesn't think he would split it, which indicates she is perhaps not convinced that this will be an improvement.

 

Harriet agreed to split AMOL into three books (as the legal owner of the copyright she is responsible for turning over a manuscript to Tor,) as the contract for AMOL was for one book she would have had to agree to split it into three books. She has stated that she believes that she believes that RJ would be pleased by how the end of WOT is being written and published which indicates that she believes that such a split does not lesson the quality of the work.

You really don't see the contradiction? RJ would be pleased, but he wouldn't do it himself. Given that RJ would have done it if it was an improvement...

[Ludmian]

The question I'm asking, when changed to a question regarding eating children...

 

In my post I clearly stated on what basis I compared your question and a hypothetical question about eating children. But of course, you haven't read the post you are responding to. Or pretend not to have read it.

 

And one more thing I guess I need to make clear:

 

I suppose that very sly attempt at avoiding the question means, "Yes, if Brandon had gone to Tom and Harriet saying, 'I found a point where I could split the novel,' then I wouldn't mind this decision."

 

Hence, you're an idiot. Somehow, that it is coming from Tom and Harriet (or even just Tom) makes it a crime against the series.

 

RJ was the only person in the whole world who had every right to say, "Sorry, guys. I've changed my mind. There won't be any AMoL. I'm chopping off a portion of what I've already written and sending it to Tor. I'll give it a title The Gathering Storm. The remaining part of the story will be published in two books titled Shifting Winds and Tarmon Gai'don."I repeat, RJ was the only person whose right to say these words cannot be questioned. (Though I believe if it was RJ who said this the same people who are now vehemently defending Tor's decisions would be mad at him for doing this and would be whining about RJ "milking" them. ) But he didn't, and he is no more with us to do this. What everyone else involved, Tom Doherty, Harriet, Brandon, should do in regard to the series is to follow RJ's vision as closely as possible, provided they have at least a fraction of respect for RJ as a writer and a person. And if you can't possibly do as he wanted, then give convincing reasons why what you have done was the best thing you could possibly do. Not the best thing you could possibly do, trying to fulfill your non-existent promise to the readers. Not the best thing you could do after chopping AMoL into three parts. But simply the best thing you could possibly do to honour RJ's vision. So far I haven't seen any convincing reasons from the parties invloved. Mr Ares is right, the explanations that have come from them raise more questions than they give answers. The insults and lies from some people here weren't convincing either, of course. Or rather, the more insults and lies come from my opponents, the more I'm convinced that I'm saying the right things here. And it's really not important who made these decisions. As I said, the only person who had an unquestionable right to make them is dead. I don't think it was Brandon or Harriet, but even if you post a link to a video where Harriet is beating Tom with a stick, trying to persuade him to butcher AMoL, it won't change my attitude to the decisions in the slightest. Though whatever faith in humankind I have, of course, will be significantly reduced after that. Of course, you can say that Tor is not obliged to give anyone any explanations. Sure they aren't obliged. But until they give convincing reasons for their actions, no one is obliged to swallow the BS that comes from them. You can do this if you choose, of course, but other people have a similar right to question their decisions.

[Graendals favourite]

Ludmian, perhaps one might draw a comparison to Constanze Mozart, the widow of the late composer some 215 years ago. Mozart of course had the full rights to his works. However, there was a great surge in his popularity after his death. It is impossible to separate how much different matters contributed to this surge, but a part was played by the actions of his widow. She of course partly had to be motivated by monetary issues, since she and Wolfgang had been living through tough times before and had debts, yet she did do great work in collecting his works, destroying any incomplete drafts that might remained from Mozart, and in general promoting the works. For example, Wikipedia says thusly:

Mozart died in 1791, leaving debts, placing Constanze in a difficult position. At this point Constanze's business skills came into fruition: she obtained a pension from the Emperor, organized profitable memorial concerts, and embarked on a campaign to publish her husband's works. These efforts eventually made Constanze financially secure, even well-off. She sent Karl and Franz to Prague to be educated by Franz Xaver Niemetschek, with whom she collaborated on the first full-length biography of Mozart.

 

Mozart was a composer, to whom the skyscraper comparison applies. All skyscrapers look as high when you stand at ground level near to them, but some tower above the rest when looked at from afar.

 

For RJ's legacy, which at best would mean future generations reading and loving the books, it is important to get that far. It is important in that regard that there is a great surge in the popularity of the Wheel of Time. And these things don't always just happen on their own. If business considerations are disregarded, I believe less people end up reading the books. The people who read the books and whose lives are affected by them are the greatest part of anyone's legacy, as music only really exists when people hear it, books exist when people read them.

 

A large part of Mozart's compositions could have ended up being lost if not for the efforts of people after his death. RJ's books will not be lost, not in modern times when things can be stored securely, yet they will only really stand time if enough people read them. I think it is very nice Constanze found financial security, too, but her efforts really were good for all. So that is why I think Harriet should make decisions with the best of her judgment, and she of course has much experience in the publishing business.

[CUBAREY]

True, but Harriet doesn't think he would split it, which indicates she is perhaps not convinced that this will be an improvement.

 

Harriet agreed to split AMOL into three books (as the legal owner of the copyright she is responsible for turning over a manuscript to Tor,) as the contract for AMOL was for one book she would have had to agree to split it into three books. She has stated that she believes that she believes that RJ would be pleased by how the end of WOT is being written and published which indicates that she believes that such a split does not lesson the quality of the work.

You really don't see the contradiction? RJ would be pleased, but he wouldn't do it himself. Given that RJ would have done it if it was an improvement...

 

First, it seems to be that if RJ would have been pleased with the way the novel is being written and published, then it at least suggests that his comment that their would only be one book no matter how long, is thought to be hyberbole by harriet. Second, what would have mattered to RJ about AMOL was that it be a quality book that would be the cap stone to his literay legacy. Whether it was one book or three would have been unimportant as long as the quality was there. lastly, RJ may have had other concerns that touched on AMOL such as providing his family with enough funds to live comfortably without him. Taking the fact that Sanderson's three novels will apperently do justice to RJ's legacy the fact that his family will be more greatly benefited by three novels then one may have easily overcome RJ's insistance that there be only one novel as long as a split does not produce an inferior product.

 

 

RJ was the only person in the whole world who had every right to say, "Sorry, guys. I've changed my mind. There won't be any AMoL. I'm chopping off a portion of what I've already written and sending it to Tor. I'll give it a title The Gathering Storm. The remaining part of the story will be published in two books titled Shifting Winds and Tarmon Gai'don."I repeat, RJ was the only person whose right to say these words cannot be questioned.

 

You are wrong, RJ left an outline and a completed ending. In order for their to be any book Harriet first had to decide that RJ would have wanted someone else to finish the book. Then Harriet would have to rely on the person she choose on whether a book could be finished from the outline and notes RJ left. Third, the question as to how to publish the work (one book or three) would have to be decided once the length of the work was at least approximately known. Then such considerations as why RJ wanted only one book, commitments that had been made to booksellers and fans, and the profitability of the endeaver would have come into question.

 

Please note that this is far different from the case where RJ had finished or almost finished the manuscript or had at least written a substantial part of it. In that case RJ's statement that the book should be published in one volume should be controlling. But in our case Rj's statment was based on his assumption as to how the writing process would turn out counterposed to statements by Sanderson that the work can be safely and coherently be split into three novels after writng a substantial portion of the work. An author has the right to determine how a finished work should be published and whether someone else should finish an unfinished work, however, his desires as to the form of the unfinished work must be counterbalanced against what the person who actually wrote the work believes. Moreover, you must take into account that there are considerations other then literary value that the original author may have had but had left publicly unsaid. Such factors are often financial in nature and neither the opriginal author nor his hiers have a duty to disclose them publicly. Finally, presumptous belief that Harriet owes you any explaination at all beyond what she has already says only points out that you have mistaken the role of a fan of a fantasy series with that of an author's loved one (who in this case also happens to be the Editor of the WOT) series who knows more about both WOT and RJ's wishes then you could ever hope to know. You are not only an idiot but are a dellusional idiot.

 

 

[Roxinos]

In my post I clearly stated on what basis I compared your question and a hypothetical question about eating children. But of course, you haven't read the post you are responding to. Or pretend not to have read it.

 

I did read it. I understood it. But since whatever I say will be colored by my own biases, and whatever you say will be colored by those same biases when I read it, and the same on your end, it's probably best if we don't continue this line. There will never be complete understanding between us in this case because, well, I think you're an idiot.

 

RJ was the only person in the whole world who had every right to say, "Sorry, guys. I've changed my mind. There won't be any AMoL. I'm chopping off a portion of what I've already written and sending it to Tor. I'll give it a title The Gathering Storm. The remaining part of the story will be published in two books titled Shifting Winds  and Tarmon Gai'don."

 

Ah, nothing smells better than unrealistic expectations.

 

*sniff*

 

Nevermind, that just smells like BS.

 

Rox, if I tell someone to do something, it is usually not a joke.

 

Well, then, you should learn to assert your modhood more appropriately.

[JenniferL]

Or I could. Thread locked until there's actually something to discuss. Jesus christ people.