The Gathering Storm Finished

[CUBAREY]

Quote

Yet another report comes in from Kevin Dean, one of Dragonmount’s staff members who attended the event...

 

RJ then went on to say that during the signing, he would be asked a few questions, as he always is. The second person in line, he said, would ask “When is the next book coming out”. He gave us a gurantee that we could “take to the bank” that it would be on shelves shortly after he finished writing it. And the fourth person would inveriably ask, “How many more books in the series” which he explained the same way as other signing, about needing a “dolly” to carry the thing out. But unlike other accounts, he said at this point, it is not possible for him to write two more coherent books. He said he might get one coherent book, and one incoherent, or two semi-coherent, so tWoT would be finished by book 12.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/News/?p=234

 

 

 

 

 

 

A statement made before he actually sat down and began writing the book. It became clear to Sanderson after writing 350k words of the story that in fact the material could be coherently cut into three books. Would RJ agree with Sanderson's concusion?  No one knows, but Harriet has stated that she believes that RJ would have been happy with the way it was being written and published. This may not be good enough for you but it is for many of us.

 

In case you haven't noticed, my numbers were based on maths as well. You take the book that is the fourth  in wordcount but has the greatest page count so far. I base my maths on the longest books in the series. Before you call other people idiots try to do your maths with TSR or LoC, as I did.

 

You presume that you can shrink the font size of book drasticly. You are literally correct but practically totally wrong. The size could be shrunk to that used to pblish bibles buut that is totally unrealistic for a popular fiction novel where booksellers demand and bookbuyers at the very least expect that the font size be reader friendly.

 

 

 

[Roxinos]

You presume that you can shrink the font size of book drasticly. You are literally correct but practically totally wrong. The size could be shrunk to that used to pblish bibles buut that is totally unrealistic for a popular fiction novel where booksellers demand and bookbuyers at the very least expect that the font size be reader friendly.

 

Actually, CUBA, I did the math. Ludmian is right in that respect. If they use LoC hardcover as a template, they can produce a book that is 1,500 pages, 3.86 inches thick, 6 inches wide, just under 8 inches long, and weighs 4.7265 pounds.

[CUBAREY]

You presume that you can shrink the font size of book drasticly. You are literally correct but practically totally wrong. The size could be shrunk to that used to pblish bibles buut that is totally unrealistic for a popular fiction novel where booksellers demand and bookbuyers at the very least expect that the font size be reader friendly.

 

Actually, CUBA, I did the math. Ludmian is right in that respect. If they use LoC hardcover as a template, they can produce a book that is 1,500 pages, 3.86 inches thick, 6 inches wide, just under 8 inches long, and weighs 4.7265 pounds.

 

Which I think is so large as to make it practically unpublishable (Many booksellers would seriously balk at such a size, and taking into account that my copy of KOD did not make it through the first reading before it started to fall apart a hardcopy book of 1500 pages would be a bookbinders nightmare). Thus you would have to drasticly shrink the font size to keep the book to a manageable size, which is itself not a realistic option.

[Roxinos]

...Frankly, if your copy of KoD started to fall apart after your first read through, then you need to learn how to take better care of books.

 

Of course, I agree with your other points.

[CUBAREY]

...Frankly, if your copy of KoD started to fall apart after your first read through, then you need to learn how to take better care of books.

 

Of course, I agree with your other points.

I like to go back and fourth while reading when something in the story refers to something earlier on. Flipping back and fourth is possibly not normal but its not mistreating a book.  The Binding on several of my other hardcover WOT books began deteriorating on the second reading. If you have not noticed many of us have commented that the quality of Tor's hardcover books is atrocious.

[Roxinos]

I'm aware. *laughs* I don't have many hardcover versions of the books, though the ones I do have are torn to crap. LoC is missing its front cover (it's just gone). CoT is losing its back cover.

[Shard]

It's not just the hardbacks, the paperbacks have trouble holding together as well.

[Roxinos]

Oh, I know that. My dad tears up good books; you can imagine what he does to tWoT. His copy of tSR in paperback is in three pieces.

[callandor]

...Frankly, if your copy of KoD started to fall apart after your first read through, then you need to learn how to take better care of books.

 

Most of our books are at least missing pages, tEOtW is missing like the first two chapters, so we got a new book, KoD is falling apart in sections, which isn't bad care. CoT is strangely pretty good, just a little wear and tear from use. others are missing the cover.

 

the bindings on these books i have concluded are equivalent to binding a book with a glue stick.

[Roxinos]

Hah, my paperback copy of tEotW is missing the pages from the first page after the cover to the last page of the Prologue. It's pretty amusing, actually.

[arkinia]

Your discussion of book treatment is gut-wrenching! All of my paperbacks are in pristine condition except for my tEotW whose front cover has a TINY rip that is NOT noticeable at first glance.

[callandor]

Your discussion of book treatment is gut-wrenching! All of my paperbacks are in pristine condition except for my tEotW whose front cover has a TINY rip that is NOT noticeable at first glance.

 

do you read them?

mine would be pristine to if i didn't read them. the book-bindings are just horrible. pages just fall out sometimes for no reason.

[arkinia]

NO I DON'T READ THEM THE INTERESTING AND VERY INSIGHTFUL CONVERSATIONS I HAVE WITH THE LOVELY MEMBERS OF THIS FORUM ARE JUST SPONTANEOUSLY GENERATED OUT OF MY BRAIN AND ARE JUST COINCIDENTALLY RELEVANT TO THE WHEEL OF TIME.

 

But, really I handle my books like babies.

 

And then I  mostly read at home, safe from the unspeakable dangers that are the outside world.

[Shard]

Arkinia it's not like our books fall apart in days. This is from years and years of having and reading these books. Of sticking them in our pockets, taking them everywhere (camping trips in my case), and so they do gather alot of wear and tear.

[Roxinos]

Actually, CUBA said his hardcover copy of KoD didn't last through his first read through before it started falling apart.

[CUBAREY]

My only defense is that I have read the series a total of nine times, and three of the books a couple of more times. But I am on my third set of books. I bought the first 5 books in paperback and they lasted into the fourth reading. I started buying hardbacks with the sixth book but they seem to last even less time then the paperpack. Now I have an expensive set of the Hardcover books which I try not to use and a mixed set of paperpacks and hardcovers which is my everyday throw in the brief case and get mustard on them set.

[Vambram]

TSR, TFoH and LoC are about 400,000 words each, according to Wikipedia, and are about 700 pages long. So a book containing 750,000 to 800,000 words wouldn't have to be more than 1400-1500 pages long. Harriet surely knows that a 1500-page book is within the scope of binding technology. It's sad to see how Harriet and Brandon are forced to defend Tor's actions with arguements they know are not true.

In my opinion, what is sad to see is the apparent doubt by Ludmain of the honesty and veracity of Harriet's and Brandon's responses concerning the splitting of AMOL. I provided proof of what Harriet said about all of this, and sadly, it still is not good enough for you, Ludmain. Oh well, at least y'all cannot say that I didn't provide proof.

[water_seeker]

My hardcovers are in pretty good condition.  One of them actually got severely damaged while I was moving a few years back (I was pissed)...bent all to heck and all that...but I managed to press it out and it resembles a book once again.

 

I prefer my paperbacks but they are in horrible condition...except for tEotW, tDR, tFoH, and aCos because I purchased replacements for them in the past couple years. 

 

Of my remaining paperbacks, 3 of them only have covers due to a lot of tape, and just like Rox is missing the cover to his hardcover LoC I'm missing the cover to my paperback LoC...I remember when it came off...it got lost before I could find some tape.

 

And I too treat my books with TLC...except that one that got hurt while moving...

[Ludmian]

Hmm...

 

Did the math. Seems you're right.

 

You're still an idiot, though.

 

If they used LoC as the template for the size of the book, size of the margins, size of the fonts, and the fonts themselves, then it would be about 1500 pages. You're right about that.

 

You're still claiming that people are saying it's impossible. I'm quite sure that no one has said it's impossible. Just not pleasant for any of the parties involved.

 

No one in this discussion has yet been able to catch me misrepresenting anything, and I intend to keep it this way. In case you haven't noticed, this whole arguement about book size started with the following post by Vambram:

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/Books/Memory_of_Light/harriet_interview_01.php

 

How did the decision to divide this final book into three parts come about? Was it a publishing necessity, a story necessity, or something else?

 

The material that Jim left was very capacious, and Brandon saw after working with it for a while that he could not complete it in less than a total of 750,000 words. This is probably an impossible thing to bind - unless we sold it with a magnifying glass. 250,000 words is in fact a fat, or Rubensesque, novel. You will notice that 3 x 250,000 equals 750,000. So... part of the decision was based on making a book within the scope of binding technology. The major part of the decision was to get ALL the story that Jim left out there for us all.

 

I do hope that this interview of Harriet by Jason of Dragonmount.com answers questions as to what Harriet was thinking when it came to splitting AMOL.

 

The point I was trying to make is that a 750,000-word AMoL is within the scope of binding technology. For that I was called an idiot. How big that book would have been is another question. For the post I was responding to it holds little relevance.

 

And no one said it would be the easiest thing you've ever done. But I would think the last book by a man who's been your personal friend and your publishing house's most popular author for many years is worth a little extra trouble. Especially when you take into account that it will certainly become a bestseller and bring you lots of money no matter what. It's not like everyone is expecting you to do a charity.

 

LoC hardcover is about two inches thick, 6 inches wide and just under 8 inches long.

 

You can essentially stack two of them on top of each other and get what you'd assume to be getting in an "A Memory of Light" single-volume hardcover. Well, minus about four-sixteenths of an inch.

 

That's 2 times 2.055, which is 4.11 inches. Subtract about .25 from that and you get a book that's about 3.86 inches thick.

 

That's just about to the 1 on the right side of this graphic measuring from bottom to top.

 

 

 

Not unheard of, true. Still huge. Still not something I'd want to carry around.

 

And just because I got bored.

 

LoC hardcover weighs ~2.3 pounds. Multiply 2.3 by 2.055 and you get 4.7265 pounds.

 

An almost five pound book.

 

That's...large.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Edgar-Allan-Poe-Library-America/dp/0940450186/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241162630&sr=1-1

 

1408 pages, 8.2 x 5.2 x 1.8 inches, 1.9 pounds. I've got that book, so I can confirm that it's really not thicker than an average WoT book, if not thinner, in spite of having twice as many pages. Of course, Tor would have hardly used for AMoL paper that thin, but this example does show that the book's actual size and weight can be greatly manipulated.

 

I have no doubt, of course, that I'll be called an idiot one more time for ignoring your maths or not addressing some other issue associated with publishing a big book like this.

 

TSR, TFoH and LoC are about 400,000 words each, according to Wikipedia, and are about 700 pages long. So a book containing 750,000 to 800,000 words wouldn't have to be more than 1400-1500 pages long. Harriet surely knows that a 1500-page book is within the scope of binding technology. It's sad to see how Harriet and Brandon are forced to defend Tor's actions with arguements they know are not true.

 

In my opinion, what is sad to see is the apparent doubt by Ludmain of the honesty and veracity of Harriet's and Brandon's responses concerning the splitting of AMOL. I provided proof of what Harriet said about all of this, and sadly, it still is not good enough for you, Ludmain. Oh well, at least y'all cannot say that I didn't provide proof.

 

In my opinion, it is sad how people choose to hide behind RJ's widow instead of taking arguements at face value and providing their counter arguements if they don't agree with anything. It was clever of Tor to choose Brandon and Harriet to communicate their feeble excuses, but it doesn't make their excuses any more convincing. I provided proof that this particular excuse from Tor is rubbish. Don't agree with it? I have no problems with this. Provide your own proofs and we'll discuss them. But don't hide behind Harriet's back this time. Try thinking for yourself.

[CUBAREY]

And no one said it would be the easiest thing you've ever done. But I would think the last book by a man who's been your personal friend and your publishing house's most popular author for many years is worth a little extra trouble. Especially when you take into account that it will certainly become a bestseller and bring you lots of money no matter what. It's not like everyone is expecting you to do a charity.

 

It's not just a little extra cost; size would piss of booksellers who would order less copies which would mean less copies sold. And Tor is a going concern it can not dictate to boosellers, its actually the other way around. Moreover, your Edgar Allen Poe book is not really proof of anything. No one pays royalties on Poe's books as the copywrites have long lapsed thus the publisher can absorb the higher cost of publishing such a book, and as the sales of such a book are not geared to a mass popular audience the thinness of the paper is not an issue as it would be in a mass market paperback.

 

 

 

1408 pages, 8.2 x 5.2 x 1.8 inches, 1.9 pounds. I've got that book, so I can confirm that it's really not thicker than an average WoT book, if not thinner, in spite of having twice as many pages. Of course, Tor would have hardly used for AMoL paper that thin, but this example does show that the book's actual size and weight can be greatly manipulated.

 

Again, a limited number of copies of a book where no royalties are paid to the author, the economics of such a publication is totally irrelevent to the costs of a mass produced popular novel.

 

It was clever of Tor to choose Brandon and Harriet to communicate their feeble excuses, but it doesn't make their excuses any more convincing. I provided proof that this particular excuse from Tor is rubbish. Don't agree with it? I have no problems with this. Provide your own proofs and we'll discuss them. But don't hide behind Harriet's back this time. Try thinking for yourself.

 

First, those who made the arguments were Sanderson and harriet, and Tor did not put a gun to their head, indeed, Tor wants to publish the outrigger novels which it has absolutely no power to get unless Harriet and Sanderson agree. Thus Tor has very little leverage to force Harriet or Sanderson to make statements they do not agree with. Moreover, you are suggesting that both harriet and Sanderson had so little respect for their own beliefs and RJ's legacy that they would do Tor's bidding when they do not agree with the logic of Tor's position. You are sthus calling them either spinless or disononest. you should be ashamed of yourself.

[The Doctor]

I'm glad they're splitting the books regardless of binding technology or the length of an Edgar Allen Poe book, simply because I'd rather start reading the new material ASAP, rather than wait for the whole thing to be done.  It's not as though we'll have that typical 2+ year wait this time around.

[Ludmian]

And no one said it would be the easiest thing you've ever done. But I would think the last book by a man who's been your personal friend and your publishing house's most popular author for many years is worth a little extra trouble. Especially when you take into account that it will certainly become a bestseller and bring you lots of money no matter what. It's not like everyone is expecting you to do a charity.

 

It's not just a little extra cost; size would piss of booksellers who would order less copies which would mean less copies sold. And Tor is a going concern it can not dictate to boosellers, its actually the other way around. Moreover, your Edgar Allen Poe book is not really proof of anything. No one pays royalties on Poe's books as the copywrites have long lapsed thus the publisher can absorb the higher cost of publishing such a book, and as the sales of such a book are not geared to a mass popular audience the thinness of the paper is not an issue as it would be in a mass market paperback.

 

::) ::) ::)

 

No one is talking here about mass market paperbacks. What we are discussing here is a possibility of a one-volume hardcover edition of AMoL. First someone claims that it's impossible. I prove that a 750,000-word book is possible. Then Roxinos calls me an idiot for not mentioning the size of that hypothetical book (and for a few other things that are even more irrelevant and unfair than this one). I give proof that the size of a book can vary. A book twice as long as LoC shouldn't necessarily be twice as big as LoC. I don't remember saying anything about the author's royalties. What is it in my post that you don't agree with?

 

 

1408 pages, 8.2 x 5.2 x 1.8 inches, 1.9 pounds. I've got that book, so I can confirm that it's really not thicker than an average WoT book, if not thinner, in spite of having twice as many pages. Of course, Tor would have hardly used for AMoL paper that thin, but this example does show that the book's actual size and weight can be greatly manipulated.

 

Again, a limited number of copies of a book where no royalties are paid to the author, the economics of such a publication is totally irrelevent to the costs of a mass produced popular novel.

 

I don't claim to know anything about the economics of producing a book. As far as I can understand the more copies of a book you are printing the cheaper the cost of printing per copy becomes. Hopefully, someone with a knowledge replies here and clarifies how much it would cost to produce a one-volume AMoL. If not, we can only make educated guesses based on what is published today and how much it costs. I might try to do this later, but I do hope someone more knowledgeable here can do this better.

 

It was clever of Tor to choose Brandon and Harriet to communicate their feeble excuses, but it doesn't make their excuses any more convincing. I provided proof that this particular excuse from Tor is rubbish. Don't agree with it? I have no problems with this. Provide your own proofs and we'll discuss them. But don't hide behind Harriet's back this time. Try thinking for yourself.

 

First, those who made the arguments were Sanderson and harriet, and Tor did not put a gun to their head, indeed, Tor wants to publish the outrigger novels which it has absolutely no power to get unless Harriet and Sanderson agree. Thus Tor has very little leverage to force Harriet or Sanderson to make statements they do not agree with. Moreover, you are suggesting that both harriet and Sanderson had so little respect for their own beliefs and RJ's legacy that they would do Tor's bidding when they do not agree with the logic of Tor's position. You are sthus calling them either spinless or disononest. you should be ashamed of yourself.

 

Again, I proved that one particular arguement coming from Tor is rubbish. Instead of giving your proofs to the contrary you choose to rehash that "how-dare-you-insult-Harriet" sentiment. Stop hiding behind Harriet's back and give me convincing proofs that I'm wrong.

[CUBAREY]

No one is talking here about mass market paperbacks. What we are discussing here is a possibility of a one-volume hardcover edition of AMoL. First someone claims that it's impossible. I prove that a 750,000-word book is possible. Then Roxinos calls me an idiot for not mentioning the size of that hypothetical book (and for a few other things that are even more irrelevant and unfair than this one). I give proof that the size of a book can vary. A book twice as long as LoC shouldn't necessarily be twice as big as LoC. I don't remember saying anything about the author's royalties. What is it in my post that you don't agree with?

 

In the real world whether something is possible depends on whether it is financially feasable. Thus, pointing out that you compare a limited printing of a book on which no royalties are paid to a modern mass edition Hardcover novel is comparing apples and oranges.

 

 

I don't claim to know anything about the economics of producing a book. As far as I can understand the more copies of a book you are printing the cheaper the cost of printing per copy becomes. Hopefully, someone with a knowledge replies here and clarifies how much it would cost to produce a one-volume AMoL. If not, we can only make educated guesses based on what is published today and how much it costs. I might try to do this later, but I do hope someone more knowledgeable here can do this better.

 

 

Paper that is thinner but just as strong osts more, more pages cost more then less pages, binding a large book costs much more then a small book. Small printings (in amount of copies) are easier to do then large printings because the time devoted to them is less and can be fit into a schedule between long runs (in essence the printer will take less to fill up dead time--that's when limited printings are done).

 

Again, I proved that one particular arguement coming from Tor is rubbish. Instead of giving your proofs to the contrary you choose to rehash that "how-dare-you-insult-Harriet" sentiment. Stop hiding behind Harriet's back and give me convincing proofs that I'm wrong.

 

Your proof is unconvincing as stated above, moreover, the arguments you are blasting were made not only by Tor but by Harriet and Sanderson. If you think the arguments are "rubbish" you must deal with the fact that indicts Harriet and Sandserson as much as Tor.

 

 

[Vambram]

Well said, Cubarey. I am glad that your posts have convincingly refuted what Ludmain believes about this. I could not have said it better myself. However, despite the convincing strengths of your posts, Harriet's answers in her interview with Jason, and also Brandon Sanderson's blog where he clearly explained why AMOL is being split into three books... despite ALL of that, I still doubt that Ludmain and others will be convinced of the honesty and veracity of these explanations. To me, that is sad.

[The Doctor]

And the books do tend to fall apart even at half the length of the new one, which, while I haven't the time to go back and read throgh the 22 other pages of this thread, I'm sure has alrerady been mentioned.