The Gathering Storm Finished

[Jonn]

This seems as good a place as any to ask this question.  What, if anything else, do you think will come storming out of the blight besides Trollocs, Myrdraal, Dragkhar, greymen, Darkhounds.  Personally, I think all will come storming out but the only other thing I can think of is Wyrms.  I don't think the trees will come because they aren't evil ents, after all.  Opinions

 

I think like how there is now a hybrid Myrdraal like Shadar Haran, there might be a hybrid Trolloc. Smarter, with suicidal courage, harder to kill. Like a fade seeming to need less sustenance, but kills for pleasure as much as purpose. That would be terrifying in larger numbers.

 

Nothing more threatening than the dreadlords, black ajah, Forsaken.

 

 

 

Myrdraala are already a half-way hybred between a Trollic and a man. Moreover, I do not think that they would introduce totally new shadowspawn at the end of the story. Now worms and the moving trees could definately make a second appearence, as will dreadlords, etc.

 

You never know. Shadar Haran is "different" from other myrdraal, when they are said to be as alike as peas from the same pod. So, he's a unique form of a hybrid. In any breeding, there are "missing links". Larger Myrdraal...Smarter trollocs.

 

Take Narg for example. *shrug*

Who knows what's out there? These things have been around for a while and they themselves are genetic mishaps.

[Jonn]

He said it would be finished by book 12. After book 11 came out.

 

But he never made any promises that book 12 would not be split. Notice the difference?

 

Barely. Splitting hairs pretty fine here.

 

I am sticking to the facts. I always have been.

No, you are not.

 

Given that his stated reason for the single volume in the first place was a refusal to compromise on quality, I find that unlikely. He would have produced the best AMoL he could.

 

You are deliberatly misinterprating what he said. What is important to understand here is that one book split in two (or three) parts is something very different from two completely separate books.

 

In Sweden, all WOT books have been split in two when translated. Does that mean that the Swedish publisher violates RJs "vision"? Should I take my torch and pitchfork and go on a crusade against these heretics?

 

But this "split" is in fact a split. As in 3 separate books. Whenever you have to alter the structure of one book so that it is separated in parts and each part is altered to stand on their own as a piece by themselves...

 

You are writing more than one book.

 

Your use of semantic argument is really starting to get tiresome.

 

In Sweden, they may split the books, but they are split versions of a single book, planned and printed in its original form as a single book, only split for production in a foreign market. Much like Lord of the Rings was actually a finished manuscript for a single book, the publishers split it.

 

This is DIFFERENT. The book was planned from the beginning by the author AS HE WAS WRITING IT, as a single large book. He in fact made note several times that he intended it to be a single large book, meant to be read through as one book. UNALTERED.

 

What we have here is Tor dictating to Sanderson that he must produce a piece from the work he has already completed, and repackage that into a separate work...a book. They've called this BOOK, The Gathering Storm.

 

It's a separate book. Not a split section of one book. It's a book taken from the material of a larger piece, made into a separate novel.

 

NOT WHAT RJ WANTED OR PLANNED. PERIOD.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Barely. Splitting hairs pretty fine here.

 

LOL ... like the people insisting that he never changed his mind about the length of the series before, because his wording was different this time?

 

All this entire conversation proves is that people will re-interpret whatever he said, thought, or wanted to match what they say, think, and want.

[Vambram]

NOT WHAT RJ WANTED OR PLANNED. PERIOD.

 

Talk to Harriet, then, because if she felt as strongly about this as you do, my friend, then she could have insisted that AMOL be published as one massive 800K plus word novel which Sanderson has said would not be ready until some time in 2011. I know this may sound like I am hiding behind Harriet, but it is obvious. at least,  to me that if she really wanted to do so, she had all the power and authority necessary in order to make sure that AMOL is published as one massive book that would have been over 800K words long.

[Jonn]

Barely. Splitting hairs pretty fine here.

 

LOL ... like the people insisting that he never changed his mind about the length of the series before, because his wording was different this time?

 

All this entire conversation proves is that people will re-interpret whatever he said, thought, or wanted to match what they say, think, and want.

 

This old argument? Really?

 

Fella, he said that this was the last book. It doesn't matter how many times he supposedly changed his mind before. He said it more than once and repeated his intent.

 

We've already debunked your idea that he was going to change his mind again, because he never changed his mind in the first place.

 

When he was in the process of putting the series together, he was asked how many more books would there be, and unsure at that point he would give an estimate. He never said anything definitively as he did for this novel.

 

It's very different.

 

 

[Jonn]

NOT WHAT RJ WANTED OR PLANNED. PERIOD.

 

Talk to Harriet, then, because if she felt as strongly about this as you do, my friend, then she could have insisted that AMOL be published as one massive 800K plus word novel which Sanderson has said would not be ready until some time in 2011. I know this may sound like I am hiding behind Harriet, but it is obvious. at least,  to me that if she really wanted to do so, she had all the power and authority necessary in order to make sure that AMOL is published as one massive book that would have been over 800K words long.

 

Why don't YOU talk to Harriet then, pal? You seem rather fixated on her. Any time anyone mentions what RJ ACTUALLY SAID, you counter with speculation of what Harriet THINKS.

 

That kind of logic doesn't stand up no matter how many times you say it.

 

I honestly don't think she would appreciate your speculations using her name every time you want to push a point in an argument, but hey, that's just speculation on my part isn't it.

 

Shall we now argue about it for 5 pages, or can we just drop Harriet from the argument now, because in all of this time you have yet to produce one quote or reference from her that would support your claims of empathy.

[Vambram]

Why drop Harriet from the discussion? Is she or is she not the one who has the authority over her husband's estate? I am not the one disagreeing with Harriet's decision. You are, my friend. You are the one who keeps insisting that RJ never changed his mind about AMOL, and therefore, are implying that Harriet has made a bad decision about splitting AMOL.

[Dunedain Fal]

Who the frak cares whether AMOL should be one book or three books?  The point is no one knows because RJ died before he finished the book.  The only people that would have the best knowledge is Harriet, his boss, and his closest friends that he confided in.  The fact that they agreed to split the 3 books is not a big deal because they had the power to make the decision, given by RJ.  I don't see anywhere that RJ said the fans could question the choices that Tor, Harriet, or Brandon Sanderson could make.  Although we may be die hard fans of the Wheel of Time, it is not up to us to make the decision nor we do have the right to.  If you say that they don't have the power to make that decision, well by that same vein, they don't have the power to finish the series.  They should have left the series unfinished.

 

So for those people who say that Tor, Harriet, and/or Brandon Sanderson shouldn't have done this or that blah blah blah but want to see the series finished, are being hypocritical because they want to have the cake and eat it.  Too bad, life doesn't work out that way.

 

As for me, I'm just happy that I am at least getting a book of the Wheel of Time in November '09.  It has been four long years since the Knife of Dreams came out.  I don't care whether it is the final book or not.  I am just damn happy to get a book by Nov. '09 when we were supposed to get it by Nov.' 08. or even earlier than that such as Jan. or Feb. 09.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Any time anyone mentions what RJ ACTUALLY SAID, you counter with speculation of what Harriet THINKS.

 

Actually, I countered with examples of what he actually DID, and then you reinterpreted what he said.  But I honestly think you can't even see it.

[Vambram]

http://www.dragonmount.com/Books/Memory_of_Light/harriet_interview_01.php

 

How did the decision to divide this final book into three parts come about? Was it a publishing necessity, a story necessity, or something else?

 

The material that Jim left was very capacious, and Brandon saw after working with it for a while that he could not complete it in less than a total of 750,000 words. This is probably an impossible thing to bind - unless we sold it with a magnifying glass. 250,000 words is in fact a fat, or Rubensesque, novel. You will notice that 3 x 250,000 equals 750,000. So... part of the decision was based on making a book within the scope of binding technology. The major part of the decision was to get ALL the story that Jim left out there for us all.

...

How do you think Jim would feel about the way the book is being handled, both writing it and publishing it?

 

I think he would be pleased. He very definitely wanted the series finished, you know. And it is being handled with love by all concerned. Alan has worked with us for eight years, and Maria for twelve, and love of the books is an old habit of theirs - as it is of mine. And it is an old habit of Brandon's, too, as you can see in the wonderful eulogy he wrote when Jim died.

 

I do hope that this interview of Harriet by Jason of Dragonmount.com answers questions as to what Harriet was thinking when it came to splitting AMOL.

 

 

 

[callandor]

 

NOT WHAT RJ WANTED OR PLANNED. PERIOD.

 

yeah pretty much the whole thing isn't what RJ planned once he passed away. thanks for stating the obvious. there is no way it could be as he planned without RJ being here, and he sadly is not. So, yeah that statement really doesn't mean anything. And he might have changed his mind if he wasn't diagnosed with an incurable disease as to if AMoL was to be only one book, and since you didn't have a direct feed into RJ's thoughts, you can't really know what he wanted at the time of his death. Maybe he wanted to try and finish it before he passed away, and he could only do that in one book.

 

Since you apparently have a problem with Brandon splitting the book, you should probably boycott it. Just an idea, if you feel strongly about it. Meanwhile, I'll be reading it when it comes out and enjoying it.

[Ludmian]

You deliberately choose to fight a straw man here rather than address real issues. If we replace the word "promised" with "intended to finish it in one more book" or "did not find it possible to divide the remaining part of the story into several more novels" what will change then? And as you seem to be an expert on what can be considered a promise and what can't, I repeat my request. Will you, please, provide a link to Tor's promise to publish AMoL this Fall?

 

I have never said that TOR have ever promised to publish anything related to WOT this fall, do not involve me in what other people are saying.

 

Actually, those other people include Brandon:

 

You could publish the 400k as they are done right now. If you do this, the readers do not get a book in 2009. 400k would take roughly four months to revise (and that's rushing it), and you'd have to put the novel into production with a January or February 2010 release date. That's not too far off the November 2009 date you'd promised people, so maybe they would be satisfied. But you'd leave them with a story that literally cut off right in the middle of several plotlines, and which did not have tied up resolutions...

 

 

Now, let's assume you made this decision, just as Tom did. This is the ONLY case in which you get to keep your promise to the Wheel of Time readers and deliver a book in 2009.

 

http://www.brandonsanderson.com/article/56/Splitting-AMOL

 

Do you agree that at least this particular arguement from Brandon's article is completely invalid or will you be so kind as to provide a quote were Tor promises us a book in Fall 2009.

 

 

 

As for your attempts to rephrase something RJ never said into something else that RJ never said, it does not really change anything.

 

Never said? What is it that RJ never said? Do you imply he never said he intended to finish WoT with book 12?

 

 

 

Again, totally irrelevant. RJ could have done a thousand things. We simply can't know. Though the people who knew him better than all of us combined do think that it's rather unlikely he would have agreed to split AMoL.

 

I think we can be very sure what RJ would have done if faced with the choice to either change the story, or change the package...It is sad to see that you question his integrity as an artist by claiming not to know what RJ would have chosen.

 

I insist that we don't know what RJ would have done. It is sad to see that you, of all people, question his integrity as an artist by claiming he would surely have split A Memory of Light when his reason for insisting that it be one book in the first place was that he couldn't split it without compromising the story.

 

At the end of the day, it all comes down to three questions:

 

1. Should the author's opinion of how his lifetime's work will be finished be respected?

 

Within reason...

 

It is sad to see that you insist that chopping a half-finished book into three parts and releasing them under crappy titles a year apart is the best way in which RJ's wishes can be fulfilled.

 

Barely. Splitting hairs pretty fine here.

 

LOL ... like the people insisting that he never changed his mind about the length of the series before, because his wording was different this time?

 

Any time anyone mentions what RJ ACTUALLY SAID, you counter with speculation of what Harriet THINKS.

 

Actually, I countered with examples of what he actually DID, and then you reinterpreted what he said.  But I honestly think you can't even see it.

 

Examples, please? I can't remember a single time in this discussion when you supported your words with an actual quote from RJ or anything else that could even remotely resemble a proof to your statements. It was only what you think RJ did, RJ said, RJ wanted. Those claims of yours were debunked by quotes from reliable sources a million times, however much you are trying to ignore this fact.

 

What we know is the person actually writing the end of WOT has no problem in breaking the story into three books.

 

Sorry, but it's Tor who has no problems in breaking the story into three books, not Brandon. See the difference?

http://www.dragonmount.com/Books/Memory_of_Light/harriet_interview_01.php

 

How did the decision to divide this final book into three parts come about? Was it a publishing necessity, a story necessity, or something else?

 

The material that Jim left was very capacious, and Brandon saw after working with it for a while that he could not complete it in less than a total of 750,000 words. This is probably an impossible thing to bind - unless we sold it with a magnifying glass. 250,000 words is in fact a fat, or Rubensesque, novel. You will notice that 3 x 250,000 equals 750,000. So... part of the decision was based on making a book within the scope of binding technology. The major part of the decision was to get ALL the story that Jim left out there for us all.

 

I do hope that this interview of Harriet by Jason of Dragonmount.com answers questions as to what Harriet was thinking when it came to splitting AMOL.

 

TSR, TFoH and LoC are about 400,000 words each, according to Wikipedia, and are about 700 pages long. So a book containing 750,000 to 800,000 words wouldn't have to be more than 1400-1500 pages long. Harriet surely knows that a 1500-page book is within the scope of binding technology. It's sad to see how Harriet and Brandon are forced to defend Tor's actions with arguements they know are not true.

 

A question to Majsju. If, as you claim, Tor has done their best to keep as true to RJ's vision, as possible, why can none of their reasons for handling this situation as they did stand even the slightest examination.

 

Maybe he wanted to try and finish it before he passed away, and he could only do that in one book.

 

It's amazing how Tor's advocates here insist on repeating BS that has been proven wrong a million times.

[water_seeker]

the wikipedia site im looking at has those same books close to 400k words but both books are slightly over 1k pages (tSR 1008 & LoC 1024).  That would make an 800k work closer to 33% larger than your estimate or 2k pages...not 1500.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wheel_of_Time#Books_in_the_series

 

Oh yeah, if you look at the estimated word count for 12-14 you see it's 900k words and not 800k, which really isnt that much of a stretch...other than NS tDR is the shortest at 251k words.  So 900k words would equal 2250 pages...a full 750 pages or 50% more than your estimate.

 

Other than that, I keep seeing this...

 

his reason for insisting that it be one book in the first place was that he couldn't split it without compromising the story.

 

...but I don't remember that quote.  I'm not saying the quotes not there...I just have not seen it so if you could provide it or direct me to it I would appreciate it.  Thanks

[Roxinos]

Are you serious? We're back to the length of the book argument?

 

Didn't I already deal with that (one way or the other)?

 

I even took a picture and everything!

 

Seriously, it was back on pages 5 and 7.

 

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,41781.msg1106223.html#msg1106223

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,41781.msg1108561.html#msg1108561

[water_seeker]

There is a difference in text between typing and posting (at least on my computer) so if your "illustration" in the text box was exact to your estimation of aMoL it would actually appear shorter in your post.

 

My estimate comes out to a 5.5 inch thick book which is only about a half inch longer than your estimate I believe.  That's 12.5-14 cm.

 

That is not a book I'd want to hold onto to read...and like I said in another post...I have big hands.

[Roxinos]

Eh, that's why I coupled the estimate in hyphens with an actual photo of my copy of The Fires of Heaven. And I also added a bit of basic math in.

 

Of course, I also left room for alterations in font, font size, margin size, etc. which could effect the overall size of the book. Needless to say, however, aMoL in one volume would be freaking HUGE.

[Ludmian]

the wikipedia site im looking at has those same books close to 400k words but both books are slightly over 1k pages (tSR 1008 & LoC 1024).  That would make an 800k work closer to 33% larger than your estimate or 2k pages...not 1500.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wheel_of_Time#Books_in_the_series

 

Oh yeah, if you look at the estimated word count for 12-14 you see it's 900k words and not 800k, which really isnt that much of a stretch...other than NS tDR is the shortest at 251k words.  So 900k words would equal 2250 pages...a full 750 pages or 50% more than your estimate.

 

I was speaking about hardcover editions. As stated on the page you gave a link to, Wikipedia gives page counts for paperbacks. So my estimate is valid. Unless the books continue to grow in size beyond Brandon's current estimates, AMoL could be published as one 1500-page book. And printing a book of that size is not physically impossible.

 

And to those who say that the page count of a book cannot be manipulated, according to Wikipedia the longest books in the series are almost twice as long as he shortest one, TPoD, but all US hardcover editions are about 600-700+ pages long.

 

The size of a book with a given pagecount can be manipulated as well by using a thinner paper, so a possible 1500-page AMoL wouldn't necessarily have to be twice as big as a 700-page LoC.

 

Other than that, I keep seeing this...

 

his reason for insisting that it be one book in the first place was that he couldn't split it without compromising the story.

 

...but I don't remember that quote.  I'm not saying the quotes not there...I just have not seen it so if you could provide it or direct me to it I would appreciate it.  Thanks

 

This has been rehashed many times here. I'll provide the quote one more time, of course, though there's really no point doing that. On the next page half a dozen people will conveniently forget it and start claiming again that "RJ wanted it to be his last book because he was ill and thought he had time for only one more book".

 

Yet another report comes in from Kevin Dean, one of Dragonmount’s staff members who attended the event...

 

RJ then went on to say that during the signing, he would be asked a few questions, as he always is. The second person in line, he said, would ask “When is the next book coming out”. He gave us a gurantee that we could “take to the bank” that it would be on shelves shortly after he finished writing it. And the fourth person would inveriably ask, “How many more books in the series” which he explained the same way as other signing, about needing a “dolly” to carry the thing out. But unlike other accounts, he said at this point, it is not possible for him to write two more coherent books. He said he might get one coherent book, and one incoherent, or two semi-coherent, so tWoT would be finished by book 12.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/News/?p=234

[water_seeker]

Thanks, that quote rings a bell now.

[Roxinos]

I also talked about hardcover editions in your locked thread, Ludmian.

 

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,42368.msg1116444.html#msg1116444

[Ludmian]

I also talked about hardcover editions in your locked thread, Ludmian.

 

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,42368.msg1116444.html#msg1116444

 

Quote

I was talking about the approximinate number of pages it would take for an 800K book in an Hardcover edition, because I have all of the WOT books in Hardcover, my friend.

 

Lovely. And the hardcover edition of Knife of Dreams has only 32 pages fewer than the paperback edition. At 761 pages and 315,163 words, it is the fourth longest in terms of words. So multiply that by 2.67 (roughly how many times more words 800,000 is from 300,000 words) and you get ~2,032 pages.

 

Of course, as I said before, this number still leaves a good deal of leeway for font, font size, page size, etc. I see it ranging between 1,800 and 2,100 pages.

 

Edit: And again, I'm not trying to discredit your point. I agree that a 2,000 or 1,500 page book would be monstrous in hardcover or paperback.

 

 

You were talking about KoD. The book is really the fourth longest in words, according to Wikipedia, but the biggest as far as the number of pages is concerned.  You might as well take the number of pages in the hardcover edition in PoD, then your resulting page count would be even more impressive. But this doesn't prove anything except that until now Tor hasn't tried to keep books "as short as possible". The US hardcover editions of TSR and LoC are a good testimony to the fact that it is possible to publish a 400,000-word novel as a 700-page book. Then it would be entirely possible to publish a 800,000-novel as a 1400-1500-page book.

[Roxinos]

...Actually, you really should understand what point I was trying to make. That is, I wasn't actually trying to make a point but state the facts in terms of numbers and math. And, quite frankly, that's all I care to do. I don't really care about this argument because I think that you're an idiot.

 

All I was trying to do was lay out the numbers. A hardcover single-volume edition of aMoL is likely to be between 1800 and 2100 pages. That is quite large. That was the only point I was trying to make. An 1800 page, hardcover book is large. Very large.

 

Edit:

Then it would be entirely possible to publish a 800,000-novel as a 1400-1500-page book.

 

I don't think anyone has said it's impossible. I think people say it's unlikely, unrealistic, damaging to the publisher's reputation with the bookstores, damaging to the bookstores' sales, and unreasonably large in terms of something we are to lug around. It may not even be easy depending on the perspective you take.

 

It was cute when RJ said it'd be the last book even if we had to carry it around in a trolley. I highly doubt anyone took him seriously. That's a non-point, though. My main point is in my previous paragraph.

 

No one has said it's impossible.

[Ludmian]

...Actually, you really should understand what point I was trying to make. That is, I wasn't actually trying to make a point but state the facts in terms of numbers and math.

 

So did I.

 

 

And, quite frankly, that's all I care to do. I don't really care about this argument because I think that you're an idiot.

 

Thank you.  :-[ That was an honour. All I need now is RAW and Majsju to call me anything for confronting their ungrounded claims  with facts and I'll be absolutely happy.

 

All I was trying to do was lay out the numbers. A hardcover single-volume edition of aMoL is likely to be between 1800 and 2100 pages. That is quite large. That was the only point I was trying to make. An 1800 page, hardcover book is large. Very large.

 

All I was trying to do is show that your numbers are greatly exaggerated, being based on a book that really doesn't show the full potential of what one can achieve manipulating the font size and margins. The possible one-volume AMoL would be 300-700 pages shorter than you suggest. I guess that's why I got called an idiot.

 

I don't think anyone has said it's impossible. I think people say it's unlikely, unrealistic, damaging to the publisher's reputation with the bookstores, damaging to the bookstores' sales, and unreasonably large in terms of something we are to lug around. It may not even be easy depending on the perspective you take.

 

I wonder why didn't you mention damaging the publisher's reputation with printers this time.  ;D

[Roxinos]

...

 

I suggested that it could be 200 pages shorter than the math suggests. I think that's pretty reasonable. You think it could be made 500 pages shorter than the math suggests? Fine. Go ahead, have your pipe dream. But don't spout it as reasonable, realistic, or based on any evidence. It's just what you think could be done. Remember, the difference between hardcover and paperback KoD was only 32 pages. If you multiply the difference as well, you'll get a ~63 page difference.

 

I don't see how you're saying it's greatly exaggerated when I'm providing a HUGE leeway (200 pages less than math suggests to 100 pages greater than math suggests). That just proves, above all else, that you're just full of crap.

 

I wonder why didn't you mention damaging the publisher's reputation with printers this time.  Grin

 

Because I forgot. Simple as that.

 

 

[Ludmian]

In case you haven't noticed, my numbers were based on maths as well. You take the book that is the fourth  in wordcount but has the greatest page count so far. I base my maths on the longest books in the series. Before you call other people idiots try to do your maths with TSR or LoC, as I did.

[Roxinos]

Hmm...

 

Did the math. Seems you're right.

 

You're still an idiot, though.

 

If they used LoC as the template for the size of the book, size of the margins, size of the fonts, and the fonts themselves, then it would be about 1500 pages. You're right about that.

 

You're still claiming that people are saying it's impossible. I'm quite sure that no one has said it's impossible. Just not pleasant for any of the parties involved.

 

LoC hardcover is about two inches thick, 6 inches wide and just under 8 inches long.

 

You can essentially stack two of them on top of each other and get what you'd assume to be getting in an "A Memory of Light" single-volume hardcover. Well, minus about four-sixteenths of an inch.

 

That's 2 times 2.055, which is 4.11 inches. Subtract about .25 from that and you get a book that's about 3.86 inches thick.

 

That's just about to the 1 on the right side of this graphic measuring from bottom to top.

 

 

Not unheard of, true. Still huge. Still not something I'd want to carry around.

 

And just because I got bored.

 

LoC hardcover weighs ~2.3 pounds. Multiply 2.3 by 2.055 and you get 4.7265 pounds.

 

An almost five pound book.

 

That's...large.