Ogier related questions ???

[RobertAlexWillis]

Since even the founding of the White Tower was nearly 3,000 years ago (I think?) we don't really know what other ter'angreal were created for the purpose of growing the Ways.  Even in Aviendha's "readings" she found 10 or so ter'angreal that were all designed to communicate over long distances...so there are objects of the Power that do the same things...and I imagine that growing the Ways seemed very important...so leaving it to one Talisman of Growing seems unlikely to me.

 

The Talisman of Growing was not made by anyone from or associated with the White Tower; it was made by the male channelers who created the Ways for the Ogier, after the Breaking.

 

The items in the cache that Aviendha is rummaging through are from before the Breaking.  At the time those items were made, the Ways didn't exist.

 

So, not only is it highly unlikely that more than one Talisman of Growing was ever made, but even if more than one had been made, a second one would not have been in the particular group of ter'angreal found in Ebou Dar, since those were from before the Breaking, and the Ways didn't exist until after.

[Elgee]

I'm not arguing with you, RAW, just wondering how you come to the conclusion that all the Ter'Angreal found in Ebou Dar was made before the Breaking? It was collected by the Kin over the course of ... 2000 years? Not sure of how long they've been active, but it's not a cache they found at one go.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I'm not arguing with you, RAW, just wondering how you come to the conclusion that all the Ter'Angreal found in Ebou Dar was made before the Breaking? It was collected by the Kin over the course of ... 2000 years? Not sure of how long they've been active, but it's not a cache they found at one go.

 

Gar ... I was hoping no one would bring that up.

 

Its a valid potential hole.  Not enough to convince me that there is more than one Talisman of Growing, but a potential hole.

[Elgee]

*grins*

 

A potential hole is all I ask  ;)

[Serenla]

Never thought of it that way, guess they wanted a loop hole from the start...

 

They most assuredly did.

I never would have thought to leave that leeway, I guess I'm too naive to be Aes Sedai...

 

you are not being naieve just... honest. remember the Aes Sedai were feared and reviled after the breaking. in order to retain their grip on the reins of power the vast ignorant public had to feel safe with them. this was accomplished by means of the three oaths. those oaths were carefully worded so as to instill a belief onto the general public that Aes Sedai were now harmless unless they were threatened, or working against shadow spawn. the most critical element would have been the oath against speaking untrue words. they knew that the people would interpret this as an oath against lieing and it would therefore be extrememly effective as a tool for manipulation. one might say that the oath itself was the first lie. as the very oath itself is in fact a deception to enable them to effectively convey untrue statements. that oath is the basis for Aes Sedai power in the modern age. it is their greatest political weapon. imagine how you could be manipulated to any ends they chose; if you only believe every word they utter.

It's funny how their greatest way to gain power and trust, is also the reason why they are not respected so much as feared and people don't trust them but look sideways at eveything they say.  I guess honesty is the best policy.  ;D

[MikeRiley]

They can use that lack of trust to further the weight of what they have to say. If people are considering what they say so closely wondering if they said something straight enough to mean what they think, something stated flat out will mean all that much more to them.

 

I always assumed there was a talisman of growing at every stedding populated by ogier, so there would be a few that were lost.. but if Loial said the Elders would have to bring it then there is probably only one. Do we know whether there's more than one Elder in a stedding? It sounds more like an official title to me.

[balefireruinssteaks]

Yes, because Elder Haman comes to collect Loial so he can marry Erith, but Rand and his friends convinced another Elder in another Stedding to allow Loial to continue to accompany them, so Elder is probably a title for the eldest or perhaps wisest of the Ogier in a particular Stedding - or perhaps it's like Mayor or something.

 

If the male channelers created the Talisman of Growing then I would have to ask whether all the male channelers were in one stedding, or were they spread out over various Stedding?  If they were all together I can see how there might only be one Talisman, but if they were spread out and the knowledge of how to make ter'angreal and such was still around then it stands to reason that perhaps more than one were created and given to the Elder of the Stedding. 

 

As mentioned though, perhaps after the Breaking most of them were lost (just as the Ring of Tamyrlin was lost and the Nine Rods were lost...and so many other things) and only one remains.  I think that it's hard to imagine the world before "now" because everthing is rather organized-ish...whereas during the founding of the White Tower and the wars, Aes Sedai sort of did whatever they wanted.  So anyone could have been out there making ter'angreal, it didn't require an organized effort.

[CUBAREY]

Do we know whether there's more than one Elder in a stedding? It sounds more like an official title to me.

 

Yes, because Elder Haman comes to collect Loial so he can marry Erith, but Rand and his friends convinced another Elder in another Stedding to allow Loial to continue to accompany them, so Elder is probably a title for the eldest or perhaps wisest of the Ogier in a particular Stedding - or perhaps it's like Mayor or something.

 

First in the stedding in which Rand convinces the Elders to permit Loial to travel with him there were three Elders at the meeting. Elder is not an official title, its like the term Village Elder in some African and aboriginal societies. Its a Term given to those whose wisdom has been demonstrated over the years and thus their views are respected and thought after or at worst they are the equivalent of a village council. Regardless the term would apply not to one but several individuals in the stedding at any given time.

 

 

 

 

[MikeRiley]

So it's entirely possible that there's a talisman in every stedding and the one in the ter'angreal cache might have been lost shortly after the breaking.